An Example of Not your Keys Not your coins

[xSkylarx]

There are still people who are not aware of those exchanges. They still keep storing huge amounts of bitcoin on those platforms? That is, we are still being victimized. Let's always be cautious. When you see this post, you should immediately withdraw your assets from those exchanges to be safe. However, if you are still stubborn then leave it there. With these incidents, we should now wake up, open our eyes, and make our move, as we can't really win on this kind of thing. Let's just prevent this from happening to us.

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[Ultegra134]

I’m one of those not reading exchange ToS because they are very long and written on small text which makes user ignored often times. It will be helpful if the part of Celsius ToS that use by the judge as reference will be available on the OP to easily spot it on other exchange ToS.

I believe this is unfair decision since we all know that user doesn’t read ToS and this kind of rule that sneakily place in there knowing people doesn’t bother to read is enough for the judge to make a consideration for this many loss.

Don't feel bad; who does? I don't recall ever reading them myself. It goes without saying that when you deposit money or coins into a third-party service, you no longer have access to your funds. Whether or not the crash of Celcius was deliberate, people willingly deposited their funds on the platform. We've already seen quite a few of these instances. I still use Binance to this day but I'm planning to discontinue and resort to using Metamask or Trust wallet, since these funds are actively used in staking. My Bitcoin is stored separately in a desktop wallet, away from CEX services.

[Davidvictorson]

Look how exchanges are scamming us. Most often we create account at exchanges and never care to read the terms and conditions and blindly click on "I agree" button.

Look what happen with celsius. When the Celsius users reach the court to demand their bitcoin back, the judge told that people have already given their legal right on their bitcoins and not no one can claim any bitcoin from Celsius.

I have to pay attention to T&Cs because I am guilty of this too. This is sad. I cannot imagine how pained and totally powerless they feel right now. I wish that bitcoin supporters really get the message from these sad occurrence that as long as it is not your keys, then you can't be sure that the money in your centralized exchange is yours. It will be terrible if other people do not learn from reading these experiences. Move your coins out of exchanges while you still can.

[franky1]

case in point
grayscale
https://grayscale.com/terms-of-service/

Your use of a Grayscale Site is governed by the version of the Terms of Service in effect on the date of use. Grayscale may modify the Terms of Service at any time and without prior notice. By using and accessing any Grayscale Site, you acknowledge and agree to review the most current version of these Terms of Service prior to each such use. Your continued use of and access to any of the Grayscale Sites constitutes your acknowledgement of, and agreement to, the then current Terms of Service

Grayscale may discontinue or change any product or service described in or offered on Grayscale Site at any time without prior notice. [b]Grayscale further reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to block or otherwise discontinue your access and use of Grayscale Site at any time and for any reason[/b]. You agree that Grayscale and its subsidiaries and affiliates will not be liable to you or to any third party for any such modification, suspension or discontinuance.

Some of our services, and certain pages of the Grayscale Site, are available only to clients or users who have been authorized by us to access those services and web pages. Such authorization may require completion of an accredited investor questionnaire and satisfactory background information screening.

[digaran]

snip

Can you explain a little more about this case, imagine we don't know anything about it, if you post something to discuss about an incident/event, it'd be nicer to have all the information on the OP, so that people could read what they need here and don't have to go to other sources.

If a service (especially exchanges) doesn't give you the ownership rights for your coins/assets/money, don't do it, don' fall for it, they tend to lure people at first to get big, suddenly you see billions are gone, rinse and repeat, maybe we are becoming retards ( devolving instead of evolving)

[franky1]

snip

Can you explain a little more about this case, imagine we don't know anything about it,

shortest version possible:

celsius had multiple versions of terms of service. lets call them 1-9
versions 5-8 were in favour of property belonging to celsius estate, not account holder

versions 1 and 9(9 is the current one on website now) were in favour of users ownership and to be treated as creditors
versions 2-4 are in the middle.
5-8 side with celsius ownership

the bankruptcy and date of closing access to trading earning. milestoned version 5-8 as the active ToS
which said that

the Terms Versions 5 and later are consistent and clear: Account Holders granted Celsius “all right and title to such Eligible Digital Assets, including ownership rights.

conclusion
"For the foregoing reasons, the Court finds that Earn Assets in Earn Accounts constitute
property of the Estates[celsius]"

there will be a separate court case hearing where account holders can provide arguments and proof of being a creditor via the claims resolution process

As has been
said repeatedly in this opinion, creditor’s rights with respect to various defense to and breach of
contract claims are reserved. Creditors will have every opportunity to have a full hearing on the
merits of these arguments during the claims resolution process.

[Cookdata]

I saw this today on Twitter and I learn something that it's a little thing we overlooked are the things that kill us atimes. I'm also guilty of this clicking "agree" stuff without going through the terms and Conditions, though I'm not stupid enough to live my bitcoin on any self custody.
The year 2022 has tought everyone a lesson, the not your key, not your bitcoin phrase doesn't sound to be new to anyone, people have feel what it is and would forever stay in their head after loosing all their wealth to some groups of scam entity. For those affected can start again and wait until Celsius give back their coin and go the traditional ways of Bitcoin, never trust anyone with your bitcoin.

[The Cryptovator]

The issue is that we are too lazy to manage our financial affairs. Few people read the terms and conditions of a centralized wallet or an exchange. We unconsciously give them access to our funds and then cry. We enjoy leaving our funds in an exchange that has led to a lack. We have spread "not your key not your funds", but we have not used it ourselves. Every incident results in a loss of funds for investors. As a result, the market keeps collapsing. We must learn from the past. Last year was labelled "Bloody Year for Crypto" due to a series of incidents. If we do not learn from our mistakes, we will continue to lose.

[Anonylz]

Maybe if there were simplified version of these terms and conditions it will make it much easier for investors to be able to read. Of course it is a thing of concern when you agree to terms you are not able to read. The best way to address this issue is to stop storing money on exchange. Store your funds on exchange only if you are able to read the T & C and understood it.
I don't know why terms and conditions are so lengthy anyways  

[Kasabus]

Most of us don't read Terms of Service before using. It is kinda betting and taking risk for our fund.

I remember that I read a shady term of Tether company that they can reject to pay user 1 USD for 1 USDT. If you accept their terms, you can use USDT. Months ago, when I read that after the fiasco of Terra $LUNA and $UST, I was very uncertain and doubtful about Tether and their stable coin USDT.

Your news is similar, Terms of Service are very shady and with wall of texts, most of us skip reading but don't know that we can be scammed anytime.

It's true that most people are too lazy to read the terms of agreements, which contain a lot of unnecessary text in the text in order to confuse the reader more. All these conditions could be greatly reduced. In order not to get into trouble, as users of the Celsius with a user agreement, it was simply not necessary to give btc to this platform or any other. Here I agree with OP, who singled out a well-known phrase in the crypto community, which is often forgotten, but never ceases to be relevant. By handing over your keys /btc you lose all the benefits of owning a bitcoin.

This is a perfect example of not your keys, not your coins. And if you are stupid enough not to read the terms and conditions carefully, then you are putting yourself at the losing end. But we have been warn even before not to trust exchanges as they are just good for nothing and they’ll eventually steal our funds when we are too trusting. This is already a proof. Just stay off from exchanges, and manage your own coins at your own non-custodial wallet.

[Adbitco]

Anyone who is currently leaving their funds on centralized exchange are the one risking themselves. For a very long time i don't really buy the idea of dealing with exchangers which would warrants leaving assets inside without trading or something else, i believe all this are happening to open our eyes the more because most users don't really know the intention of these exchangers.
Sometimes it gets me wondering why there's always hack occurring in most of this exchange, this could be a staff working underway to steal people's funds and term it to be something else either security breaching.

With this example that has happened i think many of us here would picked interest in reading Terms and Conditions of any exchange before furthering ahead making an account with them. Everyone is liable for their funds Take note and have it back.

[zasad@]

Look how exchanges are scamming us. Most often we create account at exchanges and never care to read the terms and conditions and blindly click on "I agree" button.

Any smart person who reads this agreement will never use the services of a crypto exchange. It says literally that the client's account can be blocked without explanation on any suspicion.
It's like a medicament analogy. A person does not read about side effects.

[lionheart78]

shortest version possible:

celsius had multiple versions of terms of service. lets call them 1-9
versions 5-8 were in favour of property belonging to celsius estate, not account holder

versions 1 and 9(9 is the current one on website now) were in favour of users ownership and to be treated as creditors
versions 2-4 are in the middle.
5-8 side with celsius ownership

Isn't this kind of action fraud?  They had version  9 published on the site while implementing 5-8 on the declaration of bankruptcy.  And why do I have a feeling that the judge, in this case, is too company-sided?  Didn't the judge consider the possible fraud attempt of the company through changes in terms and conditions?  The pioneers does not signed on the revised TOS, and the publishing of the version 9 keep the users stay in the company. 

On the latest version that is published on the company it is clearly stated that:

D. Earn Rewards

Our Earn Service allows you to earn a financing fee from Celsius, referred to as “Rewards,” in the form of Digital Assets (either in-kind, i.e., in the same Digital Asset you transfer, or in CEL Tokens, where permitted) in exchange for entering into open-ended loans of your Eligible Digital Assets to Celsius under the terms hereof. If our Earn Service is available to you, upon your election, you will lend your Eligible Digital Assets to Celsius and grant Celsius all rights and title to such Digital Assets, for Celsius to use in its sole discretion while using the Earn Service.

Since it was stated that those who avail of the earn option is not eligible to claim their funds since the ownership is transferred to Celcius but on the terms, it was clearly stated that the owner lend the amount to the Celcius company making the company borrower of the said amount.

I don't know how the judge did not see the act of fraud of Celcius in choosing 5-8 versions of the TOS.

[Viscore]

Thanks to Celsius’s “unambiguous” terms and conditions, any cryptocurrency assets — including stablecoins — that were deposited into Earn Accounts, became Celsius’s property, the filing stated.

I'd say in this case, it's more correct as an example to read the whole terms of service rather than not your keys not your coins, because everyone already know when they deposit to centralized website, the third party has a control over your coins. While in this case, Celsius's terms of service make them win about the coins ownership. If Celcius didn't write such rules, the customers will win this legal court.

That is why if there are terms and conditions listed, we should read and understand them so that we will not end up regretting and blaming ourselves. But even if there are no terms listed, we should never stick to centralized exchanges no matter what because we are giving them the permission to have an access of our account when in fact, it should be only ourselves have the sole access to our own wallet.

[TimeTeller]

Thanks to Celsius’s “unambiguous” terms and conditions, any cryptocurrency assets — including stablecoins — that were deposited into Earn Accounts, became Celsius’s property, the filing stated.

I'd say in this case, it's more correct as an example to read the whole terms of service rather than not your keys not your coins, because everyone already know when they deposit to centralized website, the third party has a control over your coins. While in this case, Celsius's terms of service make them win about the coins ownership. If Celcius didn't write such rules, the customers will win this legal court.

That is why if there are terms and conditions listed, we should read and understand them so that we will not end up regretting and blaming ourselves. But even if there are no terms listed, we should never stick to centralized exchanges no matter what because we are giving them the permission to have an access of our account when in fact, it should be only ourselves have the sole access to our own wallet.

Unfortunately, most of us don't read the terms of these exchanges or trading platforms.
Usually, we just click the agree button even if we haven't read their terms and understand what it is trying to imply.
But if you won't read the terms, just make sure you are not leaving your funds in those platforms for long.
So you won't be worrying if you can still get out your funds or not. After you make a trade or avail any of their service, withdraw it to your own wallet.
People will only realize their shortcomings once a certain platform got bankrupt or closed their services.

[serjent05]

Thanks to Celsius’s “unambiguous” terms and conditions, any cryptocurrency assets — including stablecoins — that were deposited into Earn Accounts, became Celsius’s property, the filing stated.

I'd say in this case, it's more correct as an example to read the whole terms of service rather than not your keys not your coins, because everyone already know when they deposit to centralized website, the third party has a control over your coins. While in this case, Celsius's terms of service make them win about the coins ownership. If Celcius didn't write such rules, the customers will win this legal court.

That is why if there are terms and conditions listed, we should read and understand them so that we will not end up regretting and blaming ourselves. But even if there are no terms listed, we should never stick to centralized exchanges no matter what because we are giving them the permission to have an access of our account when in fact, it should be only ourselves have the sole access to our own wallet.

The thing is there is often times a clause of revising the terms without prior notice.  This kind of clause in the terms should be banned.  Clients have the right to know any changes happening on the terms of the condition after all that was written to have both parties agreed upon.  So in reading TOS, we should look for this clause and if appears, we can opt to skip their services since this kind of condition is too vague and oftentimes unfavorable to customers just like what happened in the issue stated in this thread.

[franky1]

Usually, we just click the agree button even if we haven't read their terms and understand what it is trying to imply.
But if you won't read the terms, just make sure you are not leaving your funds in those platforms for long.

you do not even have to "clickwrap" (tick a checkbox and press accept) these days... just maintaining an account(continuing to have balance and using an account) is all that is needed to justify an agreement to the terms. even when terms change each month. by simply logging in you are then locked to that months terms, whether they have notified you or not that the terms changed since last visit/use.

[uneng]

Isn't this kind of action fraud?  They had version  9 published on the site while implementing 5-8 on the declaration of bankruptcy.  And why do I have a feeling that the judge, in this case, is too company-sided?  Didn't the judge consider the possible fraud attempt of the company through changes in terms and conditions?  The pioneers does not signed on the revised TOS, and the publishing of the version 9 keep the users stay in the company.

Despite terms and conditions, the fraud is evident by the behavior of the CEO one day before withdrawals were freezed on this tweet:



He was inspiring confidence and trustworthiness on his community that the services offered by Celsius were completely fine ONE DAY BEFORE they seized investors' funds. He acted maliciously knowing what was going to happen on the next day, besides cashing out a considerably sum of tokens days before the fateful day. The crime was premeditated and the criminal term used as an excuse to legitimate that funds belong to the scammers is there just to add one more proof of their criminal nature and forethought they were planning to scam depositors futurely.

I think a fair judge could see that and immediately order Celsius to give the money left back to depositors, no?

[noormcs5]

I believe that everyone is aware of the risks of joining these lending platforms, but because they are so greedy, they ignore everything and when they know they have been scammed, blame others. If they are not greedy, no one can scam them, if you believe centralized exchanges are scamming you, then you just need to avoid them.

Not only lending platform but crypto currency exchanges and all centralized platform where we deposit out money (bitcoin), they are greedy indeed.

Although the fall of FTX, Celsius and all these platform is bad for crypto but these have created much awaited awareness that crypto need dex's.
Now people are afraid of centralized platform. Good to know this but this awareness came at a huge price 

[crunck]

I believe that everyone is aware of the risks of joining these lending platforms, but because they are so greedy, they ignore everything and when they know they have been scammed, blame others. If they are not greedy, no one can scam them, if you believe centralized exchanges are scamming you, then you just need to avoid them.

Not only lending platform but crypto currency exchanges and all centralized platform where we deposit out money (bitcoin), they are greedy indeed.

Although the fall of FTX, Celsius and all these platform is bad for crypto but these have created much awaited awareness that crypto need dex's.
Now people are afraid of centralized platform. Good to know this but this awareness came at a huge price 

You say they are greedy, so are you greedy? If there was an opportunity to take their money, would you pass it up? I'm sure you won't miss the opportunity, so they are just like us. This is a financial market, not a babysitting place, where we wait for them to take care of us and feed us.

We are all very afraid of CEX and always wary of it, but it is a fact that we are still using it and cannot stop it. I bet you also have a binance account and have assets on it.