How can we make Bitcoin simpler?

[Macadonian]

A lot of people who would be interested in Bitcoin are not adopting it because they do not understand how Bitcoin works with the dollar it is taught in schools but it is also easy to get into without any major risk. Bitcoin you are your own bank but how do people get the knowledge required for that responsibility?

I thought hardware wallets are a answer but they require a purchase and a lot of people who are trying Bitcoin will not want to use something that they have to purchase. I think this is a major obstacle for a lot of people buying Bitcoin they buy Bitcoin and they make a mistake and because of how Bitcoin is designed they can not reverse the mistake and lose their coins. I am not suggesting we allow Bitcoin to be reversible but how can we help people avoid losing their money through error?

Can we solve this with software or are we going to need to develop cheaper to buy hardware wallets that allow people to use it without a lot of brain power and do not have to worry about a lot of the security because it is already done but just be viligant and make sure you are sending to the correct address and not falling for scams. 

[1714049158]

1714049158

[Lucius]

Without getting into how unintelligent someone is or isn't, I don't think Bitcoin is so complicated that an average person with at least a high school diploma can't figure it out in a very short period of time. By that I mean maybe 2-3 hours of lectures, with the condition that the person teaching knows what he is talking about and knows how to make a presentation, because pictures sometimes speak a lot more than words.

From my personal experience, I didn't conclude that people can't understand Bitcoin because it's too complicated, but because the idea itself is quite meaningless to them, considering that they are too deep in a system that suits them (most of them). Being your own bank is not something most people want, or better said, people don't want that risk or responsibility.

I would therefore conclude that we don't need a simpler Bitcoin, but we need people who think outside the generally set frameworks, and there are very few of them in the world, to be honest. For such a drastic change in thinking, children should be taught from the moment they start elementary school - but it is hard to expect the authorities to work against themselves and suggest to anyone that Bitcoin is something better than what they represent.

[ABCbits]

How can we make Bitcoin simpler?

Based on explanation on your thread, i believe the question should be "How can we make Bitcoin wallet simpler?".

Bitcoin you are your own bank but how do people get the knowledge required for that responsibility?

You may see this lazy answer, but it's not that different from being responsible adult and have decent digital/security literacy.

I am not suggesting we allow Bitcoin to be reversible but how can we help people avoid losing their money through error?

Short answer: Better UI and UX. For example, Electrum show warning for high transaction fee.

[thecodebear]

Better UI/UX for wallet software.

Standardized education on how Bitcoin works and the few things you need to know to use it so people can get educated on how to use Bitcoin in say 5 minutes and that 5min education is easily spread around.

Honestly if there was a way to have named Bitcoin addresses that point to actual Bitcoin addresses (like Ethereum Name Service does) that would clear up a lot of the complexity because it'd just be much simpler to transact if you could use intelligible names instead of cryptographic public addresses. I don't know if that is possible...like some sort of 2nd layer?

Also I think once banks start allowing bitcoin exchanging like directly on their website that would be huge. If people no longer have to sign up for a crypto exchange but can transfer fiat into Bitcoin straight on their bank account that would really grease the wheels of adoption. I mean obviously hopefully people would have the bitcoin education to then know that they need to transfer the Bitcoin to their own wallets. But like if you don't want to be trading or buying random altcoins you don't need a crypto exchange, if banks just had Bitcoin buying straight from your checking/savings account that would be a really seamless experience for most people.

[n0nce]

A lot of people who would be interested in Bitcoin are not adopting it because they do not understand how Bitcoin works with the dollar it is taught in schools

I don't think that this is the reason they don't try it out. Most people don't understand the dollar & economics in general, either and still use the fiat system.

but it is also easy to get into without any major risk. Bitcoin you are your own bank but how do people get the knowledge required for that responsibility?

That's a different question. I'd say it depends heavily on the wallet choice. There are more 'complicated' and feature-complete wallets and simpler, very easy to use ones out there.
I invite you to try out Passport Batch 2 or maybe watch through the unboxing and setup process video guide by them, which takes less than an hour in total. ^[1]

I thought hardware wallets are a answer but they require a purchase and a lot of people who are trying Bitcoin will not want to use something that they have to purchase. I think this is a major obstacle for a lot of people buying Bitcoin they buy Bitcoin

There are definitely very easy to use software wallets; in fact, software wallets are easier to use than hardware wallets, because those still require software. It's an extra step. Which ones have you tried? I believe using Breez (Lightning) is the easiest way to privately use Bitcoin. No setup, no UTXO management, does not require CoinJoin or mixing, but don't use it for thousands of $ worth of BTC.

they make a mistake and because of how Bitcoin is designed they can not reverse the mistake and lose their coins. I am not suggesting we allow Bitcoin to be reversible but how can we help people avoid losing their money through error?

No, this is impossible. It is a core feature of Bitcoin.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLacNs-EplMhZ7PCqpzUmX3oNxJwjaL0Kn

[tromp]

they make a mistake and because of how Bitcoin is designed they can not reverse the mistake and lose their coins.

Would it help if payment required the receiver to first prove their ability to spend the funds-to-be-received, before they could actually receive them?

[garlonicon]

Would it help if payment required the receiver to first prove their ability to spend the funds-to-be-received, before they could actually receive them?

That means you have to be online to receive a payment. And then you can use LN, then you will have that guarantee, because you need to sign channel closing transaction first.

[bittraffic]

Anyone who could read and learns how to use a mobile phone can also learn how to use BTC wallet. It's not rocket science. The majority of the population has phones, and each person in India even has two phones. They don't have to buy a hardware wallet for they can already use thier phones with an app wallet. 

I didn't make it complicated for my sister to learn to use BTC. Only receiving and sending BTC using the app wallet was enough for her. But of course I remind not to share the Priv key.

[digaran]

After 7 years I managed to explain 2^256 bit security range for bitcoin keys to my family, they just realized the level of security, other things they understood 7 years ago. For them it was the complicated stuff that made them understand how the bitcoin keys are safe.

[o_e_l_e_o]

A lot of people who would be interested in Bitcoin are not adopting it because they do not understand how Bitcoin works with the dollar it is taught in schools but it is also easy to get into without any major risk.

I would point out that almost nobody actually understands how the fiat banking system works, how loans work, and how new money is created. And almost nobody understands how their online banking account is secured, how money is actually transferred, or how credit cards work. And yet almost everyone uses these things every day. You do not need a deep underlying knowledge of something in order to use it.

I would also point out that fiat is only easy to get in to because it is the default that everyone is exposed to from birth. So by the time they become an adolescent and start using the fiat system, they have already had a decade or more of exposure to it. If you were presented with the two systems, and had zero prior experience or knowledge of either of them, then I firmly believe that bitcoin is easier to understand. You own a wallet, you receive bitcoin to an address, you send it to someone else's address. Easy. You open an account with a third party bank, they receive money on your behalf and credit it to your account, you open a credit card account with another third party, you use that credit card to pay someone else except it's not really them you are paying but yet another third party, your third party credit card issuer transfers some money to this other third party but actually it won't really be transferred for 3-5 business days, you then tell your third party bank to pay your third party credit card issuer to clear the debt on your credit card... Not easy at all.

If you can operate a fiat bank account and a credit card, then you can operate a light bitcoin wallet. It's not a question of complexity; it's a question of desire to learn.

[garlonicon]

2^256 bit security range for bitcoin keys

Bitcoin keys have 256 bits in size, but their security level has only 128 bits, see: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2859033

[thecodebear]

A lot of people who would be interested in Bitcoin are not adopting it because they do not understand how Bitcoin works with the dollar it is taught in schools but it is also easy to get into without any major risk.

I would point out that almost nobody actually understands how the fiat banking system works, how loans work, and how new money is created. And almost nobody understands how their online banking account is secured, how money is actually transferred, or how credit cards work. And yet almost everyone uses these things every day. You do not need a deep underlying knowledge of something in order to use it.

I would also point out that fiat is only easy to get in to because it is the default that everyone is exposed to from birth. So by the time they become an adolescent and start using the fiat system, they have already had a decade or more of exposure to it. If you were presented with the two systems, and had zero prior experience or knowledge of either of them, then I firmly believe that bitcoin is easier to understand. You own a wallet, you receive bitcoin to an address, you send it to someone else's address. Easy. You open an account with a third party bank, they receive money on your behalf and credit it to your account, you open a credit card account with another third party, you use that credit card to pay someone else except it's not really them you are paying but yet another third party, your third party credit card issuer transfers some money to this other third party but actually it won't really be transferred for 3-5 business days, you then tell your third party bank to pay your third party credit card issuer to clear the debt on your credit card... Not easy at all.

If you can operate a fiat bank account and a credit card, then you can operate a light bitcoin wallet. It's not a question of complexity; it's a question of desire to learn.

Some good points.

I think the keys thing makes it seem harder because you can't just remember what you key is and you have to worry about losing it. And then in terms of Lightning there is probably a technical hurdle for most people that makes it a good bit harder than just going to a bank and opening up a bank account.

I think we really just need like a standardized education. A few resources that quickly explain things and everyone knows where to go to learn. Instead people have to just google around trying to figure out how things work and hope they are doing things correctly. Basically Bitcoin usage education just needs to enter the common domain where itrs very straightforward to learn how to use it and new people aren't worried about screwing things up. I mean just a few years ago a friend of mine asked me how I get bitcoin and if I can just sell it when I want and I was like what yeah of course i just open up the exchange and can buy or sell at any point. So even just the basics of like hey there are online markets operating 24/7 isn't even well understood by the general public.

We need a base level of common knowledge about how to get bitcoin, how to use keys and setup new keys, how bitcoin is stored, how to get on lightning (for the future, not needed yet), how to secure your keys and how to use wallet software. All of (other than maybe setting up lightning) could be taught to someone in 30 minutes, less time than it takes to go to the bank to set up an account. But there just isn't a sense of common knowledge around Bitcoin because there is no single place to go figure it out like say showing up at a bank and they walk you through setting up an account. We need a standardized resource of knowledge that everyone knows about so that when people want to get into Bitcoin they can just go to a website or something and in 30 minutes understand everything they need to know.

[pooya87]

A lot of people who would be interested in Bitcoin are not adopting it because they do not understand how Bitcoin works with the dollar it is taught in schools but it is also easy to get into without any major risk.

I disagree.
People don't really understand a lot of things they are using including fiat. Nobody knows how "dollar" works, majority of people don't even know the difference between money and currency or the fact that dollar is not money.
The thing is, what people refer to "understanding" is just being used to something. You may not know how your computer works but you are still using it to post here.

It's the same with bitcoin. Under the hood it is complicated but for the end user it is actually pretty easy and straight forward to use. The only thing is that bitcoin is different from what people are used to and they all want to understand it at technical level.
For example you don't really see people ask about the cryptography used in the credit/debit card most people use every day, yet they use it. But you always see them question how 256-bit elliptic curve is secure when it comes to bitcoin!

[Sarah Azhari]

I thought hardware wallets are a answer but they require a purchase and a lot of people who are trying Bitcoin will not want to use something that they have to purchase. I think this is a major obstacle for a lot of people buying Bitcoin they buy Bitcoin and they make a mistake and because of how Bitcoin is designed they can not reverse the mistake and lose their coins. I am not suggesting we allow Bitcoin to be reversible but how can we help people avoid losing their money through error?

Electrum is safe and very simple. I used it for a long time with never had a problem. I don't know why we should buy if have some safe free application out there like electrum?.

It depends on your mindset, brain, and thinking bro. Many bitcoin wallets are very easy to operate than a hardware wallets. If you 1st think a wallet is complicated, then it will be complicated next and difficult to implement it even if very easy to use beginners.

[Lucius]

Also I think once banks start allowing bitcoin exchanging like directly on their website that would be huge. If people no longer have to sign up for a crypto exchange but can transfer fiat into Bitcoin straight on their bank account that would really grease the wheels of adoption. I mean obviously hopefully people would have the bitcoin education to then know that they need to transfer the Bitcoin to their own wallets. But like if you don't want to be trading or buying random altcoins you don't need a crypto exchange, if banks just had Bitcoin buying straight from your checking/savings account that would be a really seamless experience for most people.

There was news during the last few years that some banks offered this very service, but if you ask me personally, it's a bad idea because in most cases the bank will not provide anything more than an exchange/custodial service, and that means a potentially worse situation than what we have with CEX. The advantages of banks becoming crypto exchanges would be that clients would not have to do additional KYC with various private companies, and that in banks Bitcoin would be secured in case of hacking, as is the case with deposits in savings accounts which (at least in the EU) are insured by the state in the amount of EUR 100 000.

But that kind of approach to owning Bitcoin would be completely wrong for me, because if you don't own your private keys, you don't actually own anything. Therefore, it might be better to leave banks aside, because as much as it seems that banks would be a system that would allow Bitcoin to become available in a simple and easy way, let's not forget that one of the reasons why Bitcoin exists is precisely to bypass banks.

[o_e_l_e_o]

We need a standardized resource of knowledge that everyone knows about so that when people want to get into Bitcoin they can just go to a website or something and in 30 minutes understand everything they need to know.

It's a noble goal, but it reminds me of this: https://xkcd.com/927/

As you say, there are a lot of beginner resources out there already. People will have different preferences. I personally recommend https://learnmeabitcoin.com/ quite frequently as a great beginners' resource. But I don't think it should be the only beginners' resource out there, and other people will prefer different sites and different guides. The fact is that bitcoin is too big a topic to be covered by one guide. Someone could write a great beginners' guide about how to set up and use Electrum, and someone else could come along and decide that Electrum is the wrong wallet for newbies and they should be using Sparrow instead, for example. There will never be complete consensus about the contents of such a resource, and so alternative resources will continue to exist, as they already do.

I think it's also a good thing to use a multitude of resources. You don't want to be in the situation where you are taking 100% of your knowledge, instructions, or advice from a single source.

[Welsh]

People only understand the very basics of fiat currencies. The actual process is quite complicated behind the scenes. I've said it in the past, but I believe Bitcoin's biggest problem is it's complexity, and jargon. When new users are asked questions, they're bombarded with jargon which isn't helpful at all as it adds time onto their learning. Bitcoin probably does need to simplify for the end user if we want mass adoption, not because Bitcoin is massively more complex than fiat, but because fiat has already been established, and thus it's taught in schools, universities, and basically right from a young age. Bitcoin isn't, and at the moment there's no real use to teaching young people about Bitcoin, since it's likely not going to be their primary concern.

I think wallet UI/UX has already achieved a pretty good standard. Hardware wallets are pretty easy to use. The idea of seed backup might seem alien at first, but is pretty easy to explain, and understand. Security is a big issue, whenever you have the users themselves looking after their security, who don't understand a whole lot about security then that's a problem. However, users are also absolutely awful at fiat security, and the only real backup they have is the banks can reverse any fraudulent activity. Although, the banks can also plain stop you from making transactions, so there's that.


Most wallet software adjusts the fee accordingly these days, so there's no real need to manually work it out, unless you want to save as much as possible since they do tend to overestimate. There's a little bit of knowledge required when waiting for confirmations, but that's pretty easy to grasp. I think the main problem is securing your seed, but people have been securing other things for decades. It should be pretty easy for most people.

When you start delving under the hood of Bitcoin, then yeah I'd agree it's very complex, but so is fiat currencies. The thing is most people don't really need to delve into it that far, and they don't with fiat currencies.

[Greg Tonoski]

A lot of people who would be interested in Bitcoin are not adopting it because they do not understand how Bitcoin works with the dollar it is taught in schools but it is also easy to get into without any major risk. Bitcoin you are your own bank but how do people get the knowledge required for that responsibility?

I thought hardware wallets are a answer but they require a purchase and a lot of people who are trying Bitcoin will not want to use something that they have to purchase. I think this is a major obstacle for a lot of people buying Bitcoin they buy Bitcoin and they make a mistake and because of how Bitcoin is designed they can not reverse the mistake and lose their coins. I am not suggesting we allow Bitcoin to be reversible but how can we help people avoid losing their money through error?

Can we solve this with software or are we going to need to develop cheaper to buy hardware wallets that allow people to use it without a lot of brain power and do not have to worry about a lot of the security because it is already done but just be viligant and make sure you are sending to the correct address and not falling for scams.  

There is the assumption that Bitcoin is not simple and therefore newcommers make errors and lose their money (bitcoin). I can't find any argument supporting it in your comment above. In my opinion Bitcoin is fairly simple. In the end, an owner can only keep/store it (a.k.a. HODL) and transfer just like ubiquitous so-called "digital assets",  money, tokens, secrets etc. I think that irresponsibility (pride and sloth - "ceasing to utilize the seven gifts of grace" or the "brain power") is the predominant cause of loss of bitcoin/errors by people. The current state of software and hardware tools seem to be of secondary importance and improve with time.

[serveria.com]

A lot of people who would be interested in Bitcoin are not adopting it because they do not understand how Bitcoin works with the dollar it is taught in schools but it is also easy to get into without any major risk. Bitcoin you are your own bank but how do people get the knowledge required for that responsibility?

I thought hardware wallets are a answer but they require a purchase and a lot of people who are trying Bitcoin will not want to use something that they have to purchase. I think this is a major obstacle for a lot of people buying Bitcoin they buy Bitcoin and they make a mistake and because of how Bitcoin is designed they can not reverse the mistake and lose their coins. I am not suggesting we allow Bitcoin to be reversible but how can we help people avoid losing their money through error?

Can we solve this with software or are we going to need to develop cheaper to buy hardware wallets that allow people to use it without a lot of brain power and do not have to worry about a lot of the security because it is already done but just be viligant and make sure you are sending to the correct address and not falling for scams. 

I really don't think we need to make Bitcoin even simpler to use. The easier it is to buy Bitcoin the easier it will be to lose it. Some learning curve is necessary, if you have to use your brain to buy Bitcoin, you will also use your brain to not lose it. I got to know Bitcoin back in 2010 and for me Bitcoin is as easy as FIAT. Even easier in fact. I suspect that people don't want to buy Bitcoin not because they don't know how or they don't want to learn but because they don't want change. Change is frightening, change is uncomfortable. You get used to things, get stuck inside your comfort zone. And no hardware wallet or reversible tx will fix this.

[NeuroticFish]

Can we solve this with software or are we going to need to develop cheaper to buy hardware wallets that allow people to use it without a lot of brain power and do not have to worry about a lot of the security because it is already done but just be viligant and make sure you are sending to the correct address and not falling for scams. 

You are only partly right. People are interested of bitcoin because of its price going up rapidly. This being said, many just keep their coins at exchanges without knowing nor caring about the wallets and whether it's easy or not to use them.

Now, about the wallets. It can be made easier, actually afaik some custodian wallets use/used to be pretty easy. But yeah, custodian plus made by some developers paid by that company.
I kept saying some months and years ago that easier to use wallets should be a plus. It should have been, but that time frame has closed.

Now we need safer wallets, then, if possible, easier. And since some hardware wallets makers are going to the direction of making them like credit cards, your wish may come true faster than you'd think. It won't be the wallets people will advise because you won't have the control the established wallets provide, but for some that's OK. You won't reach the safety of the hardware wallets that have their own screen, but again, for some that's not a biggie.
So it won't be perfect, but may be something.