Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se

[panganib999]

Many would assume that once a person is trying to be private then something is fishy, this has been the stigma placed on Crypto-currency that all of its users are either scammers or launderers.

Mixing is not a Crime until the person engaging in the Crypto-currency mixing is found guilty. Anyone can want to engage the services of a mixer for anonymous reasons and to protect their privacy.

This is what I've been saying, the mere act of mixing is not crime, Mixers are not criminal dens that brood these scammers and scums of the planet where they can easily trick people and get away with it. There's a legitimate cause for the tool and that is to give the privacy back and make sure that coins aren't traceable, this fearmongering against Mixers brought about by the fall of Chipmixer is just horrible and a little concerning too, coz this is literally an attack to the people's right to privacy. Who's to say they're not going to crackdown on cryptocurrencies too, coz "they are anonymous and could be used by scammers hurr durr" jesus fuck. These legislators should do better.

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[franky1]

money has never had privacy rights. fiat money was the patent of governments. its their property so they have always had control on its usage.

its only now recently that people are finding/creating non government currency to a broader crowd than just a business/casino

and so the thought of now wanting privacy currency is a new thought process

however by trying to get "mainstream acceptance" by lobbying governments to deem private property assets as "currency" has allowed governments to set rules for crypto currency due to them recognising such as a currency


bitcoin was deemed private PROPERTY 2009-2014. much like pokemon trading cards, antiques, however now its in government jurisdiction of currency. the government are applying currency rules to the usage of cryptocurrency

so instead of trying to create your own definitions about what laws you want to apply or not. its far more realistic and real life affecting to know what actual laws and policies DO APPLY and then learning from them what to do and not do to then have a better idea of how to preserve your privacy

[hZti]

money has never had privacy rights. fiat money was the patent of governments. its their property so they have always had control on its usage.

its only now recently that people are finding/creating non government currency to a broader crowd than just a business/casino

and so the thought of now wanting privacy currency is a new thought process

however by trying to get "mainstream acceptance" by lobbying governments to deem private property assets as "currency" has allowed governments to set rules for crypto currency due to them recognising such as a currency


bitcoin was deemed private PROPERTY 2009-2014. much like pokemon trading cards, antiques, however now its in government jurisdiction of currency. the government are applying currency rules to the usage of cryptocurrency

so instead of trying to create your own definitions about what laws you want to apply or not. its far more realistic and real life affecting to know what actual laws and policies DO APPLY and then learning from them what to do and not do to then have a better idea of how to preserve your privacy

Well if you apply currency rules to Bitcoin this would actually be great news. Since for money laundering you need an illegal component that needs to be proven by law enforcement. Everybody is not guilty if not proven otherwise.
If Bitcoin mixing is however not currency mixing than it could be illegal from the start.

[franky1]

Well if you apply currency rules to Bitcoin this would actually be great news. Since for money laundering you need an illegal component that needs to be proven by law enforcement. Everybody is not guilty if not proven otherwise.
If Bitcoin mixing is however not currency mixing than it could be illegal from the start.

read the actual regulations.
stop trying to define things based on your prefered confirmation bias

if you can learn how things are actually treated you can then learn what actually happens in the real world and how you can possibly think about methods to avoid being watched

EG
owning a gun does not make you a murderer. but regulators put gun owners on a watch list. by noting down gun serial numbers and owners identity.

that way if there was a murder and they found a gun and thus serial number they can then easily find the suspect

mixing/buying a gun is a red flag that something criminal could happen. and so they are on the watch for those particular people
if you dont own a gun you wont be on a gun watch list. .. OBVIOUSLY

if you dont use a mixer you wont be on a watchlist of possible laundering

with all that said
by being put on watch lists by using mixers.. defeats the whole point of using a mixer.. because using a mixer gets you watched closer

thus mixers are not privacy tools when the end result of using a mixer is being watched more closely

#common-sense

as for the whole "proven in court"
i laugh

if you are doing an activity where you think going to court to prove innocence is a positive. you are forgetting some major steps before judgement

the main one being before you even step into court. your privacy has already gone...
because they have found you, taken you to a police station, interrogated you and questioned your life history and done some background checks on you.. etc etc

thus privacy gone. even before you get to have your day in court.

so thinking 'just use mixers, everything is fine, if things go bad you can explain in court' .. you are too late. your privacy had disappeared along time ago

i facepalm people that tell innocent people to carry on doing red flag activities get put on watchlists and have to be questioned about it later.. all so that real criminals can run off with innocent peoples funds leaving the dirty funds with the innocent person to have to explain..
shameful

[Hamza2424]

In my opinion Bitcoin Mixing has nothing to do with money laundering, since bitcoins are fungible. Can somebody here see if there are already cases where there was an investigation opened against somebody who has run an Mixing service or somebody who used a mixer?

I agree with your opinion that the bitcoin mixing and mixer service has nothing to do with money laundering, but we can't be sure about the mixing as some evil use it for their wrong intentions. As far as I know, the recent incident with the chip mixer is not ordinary and after that incident, law enforcement agencies are directly targeting the mixing services. Bitcoin mixing was for privacy purposes but a question here is why anyone who is using it for his privacy concerns is getting targeted. I know the answer is in the question but it's quite weird that institutes that were created for the protection of civilians and their rights are stealing those rights for the civilians.

At the same time, I think this can be a move by these agencies to divert the attention from the main concern such as the economical problems and flawed policies, but I am very sure of one thing and that is they use their full power to somehow suppress the decentralization and freedom trend in crypto market.

[serveria.com]

Some clarification is needed to this board due to the recent incident with ChipMixer.

To all advocates of anti-anonymous Bitcoin and Internet tools: Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se.

Definition of money laundering:

Money laundering is the process of illegally concealing the origin of money, obtained from illicit activities such as drug trafficking, corruption, embezzlement or gambling, by converting it into a legitimate source. It is a crime in many jurisdictions with varying definitions. It is usually a key operation of organized crime.

Definition of Bitcoin mixing:

A cryptocurrency tumbler or cryptocurrency mixing service[1] is a service that mixes potentially identifiable or "tainted" cryptocurrency funds with others, so as to obscure the trail back to the fund's original source.

Unless you think that every potentially identifiable coin is obtained illegally (which would be false), Bitcoin mixing does not equate with Bitcoin laundering. While it is possible to launder, hereby conceal the origins of money from an illegal activity, it is not a money laundering service, in the same manner that while it is possible to terrorize with the assistance of end-to-end encryption and peer-to-peer protocols, such a messenger is not a terrorism service.

Privacy is #1 enemy of the governments in the modern world. That's the reason why we are approaching a 100% digital fiat cashless society (and then who knows a chip in your head?). They hate privacy and that's why they will keep stalking privacy services like Bitcoin mixers.

[franky1]

they didnt shut down chip mixer just because it was a mixer

they ALONG TIME AGO had chip mixer on a watch list(including its customers).

and as soon as they linked it to a criminal activity this year. they acted on the information

chip mixer did do laundering this year so suffered the consequence this year

because mixing is a red flag of raised suspicion of possible utility of criminal activity, so regulators and their regulated services are delegated to watch a short list of suspicious activity and rate it based on the chance of criminal activity, to decide to level 1 just watch, 2 investigate, 3 bring charges

if you do not want to be a high percent rate risk.. if you dont want to be on a watch list.. avoid things that are given a high % rating of suspicion risk that would put you on a watch list

because if they watch something close enough. when something criminal does occur. boom. your are caught.

suspicion is not a yes/no question.. its a % rating.
fungibility is not a yes/no question.. its a % rating.

if you avoid the certain things that earn you % risk rating. you avoid the thresholds of being on a watchlist thus you keep your privacy

[Frankolala]

Privacy doesn't mean money laundry, but privacy can be seen as an advantage for some persons to partake in some illegal activities. Bitcoin mixer gives the privacy needed for transfer of bitcoin from one wallet to another without a trace. The misappropriate use of it by some persons has brought the raise of eye brown to bitcoin mixing companies.

The government shouldn't use the action of chipmixer owner to judge other bitcoin mixing companies. The thing is that government s are worried about their incapability to track the transfer of bitcoin due to mixing.

[Smartprofit]

One of the basic properties of "good" money is the fungibility of individual coins. 

The value of one coin of one denomination must not differ from the value of another coin of the same denomination.  This is the basic property of money.  Cash, by definition, is fungible money.  Bitcoins just mined by miners are also fungible money (which is why they are often more valuable than bitcoins with a "history"). 

However, the transparency of the Bitcoin blockchain has played a bad joke on it....

Bitcoin has lost such a basic property of money as the fungibility of coins.  The first cryptocurrency was artificially divided into white, gray and black (criminal).  Mixers solve the problem of returning Bitcoin's coin fungibility property.  There is nothing wrong with that, in my opinion.  Crimes on the Internet are possible, but they must be investigated by the competent authorities. 

At the same time, the principle of the presumption of innocence must apply - a person cannot be found guilty until his guilt is established by a court decision.  In my opinion, this is the most correct legal approach.

[franky1]

One of the basic properties of "good" money is the fungibility of individual coins.  

The value of one coin of one denomination must not differ from the value of another coin of the same denomination.

fungibility is not as you think
all money is treated differently and always has been

if you get money in your account from an employer. that amount gets taxed as income tax
if you get money in your account from an investment. that amount gets taxed as cap gains
if you get money in your business account from customers. that amount gets taxed as corporation tax

if you want more than $500 from an ATM you have to talk to your bank
if you want more then$1000, $10000 expect reports to tax offices

doing a wire transfer of $30k using a business account gets treated differently than a minimum wage person doing a $30k wire transfer of his life savings

what most people dont realise is money is not fungible. its just when only handling small amounts like $100 in  you back pocket. your not really a big concern for authorities to watch compared to someone with over $10k in a suitcase crossing a border.

and yes different rules apply if your using cash, debit or credit. heck even mortgage amounts are put into escrow whilst paperwork is done.

money is treated differently and always has.. welcome to the real world

[fullhdpixel]

Many would assume that once a person is trying to be private then something is fishy, this has been the stigma placed on Crypto-currency that all of its users are either scammers or launderers.

Mixing is not a Crime until the person engaging in the Crypto-currency mixing is found guilty. Anyone can want to engage the services of a mixer for anonymous reasons and to protect their privacy.

Why can't they just assume that those person are a shy type? But seriously, not all who private themselves are doing something shady. Crypto has once gain a bad reputation but now that it was popular, the public already sees them as a regular currency. If they found someone who use the mixers for illegal activity, they should punish those users and not the mixers itself because they are only doing a business here and there is no way they open the business for the sole purpose of helping the criminals.

I remember the authorities have also removed privacy coins in the exchanges before for the same reason but luckily those coins are still surviving.

[The Cryptovator]

The act of mixing Bitcoin has never been synonymous with money laundering. However, the centralized authorities with weak enforcement capabilities tend to falsely accuse it of being a form of money laundering. This is primarily because they are unable to regulate or track these transactions. Bitcoin mixers serve as a means to safeguard our privacy. Unfortunately, if someone were to utilize mixers for money laundering, there is very little that can be done about it. It's worth noting that money laundering is prevalent in traditional fiat currencies, yet there seems to be no viable way of putting a stop to it. Similarly, the crackdown on Bitcoin mixers is merely an excuse to hinder the use of Bitcoin.

[franky1]

Why can't they just assume that those person are a shy type? But seriously, not all who private themselves are doing something shady.

its not a simple legal/illegal yes no. thing
its a suspect/risk % scale. with thresholds.

Crypto has once gain a bad reputation but now that it was popular, the public already sees them as a regular currency. If they found someone who use the mixers for illegal activity, they should punish those users and not the mixers itself because they are only doing a business here and there is no way they open the business for the sole purpose of helping the criminals.

chip mixer was not shut down just for being a mixer. otherwise it would have been shut down years ago
it was shut down because regulators and businesses were WATCHING chip mixer because chip mixer is a risk of suspicious activity. and then in 2023 chip mixer GOT CAUGHT being directly involved with helping criminals.. much like the mixer that got caught last year. it was not that he was offering a mixing service it was that he directly helped and financially benefitted from processing criminal funds

U.S. prosecutors said ChipMixer processed stolen funds for cybercriminals behind the $540 million hack of the online game Axie Infinity and $100 million hack of the Horizon bridge hosted by technology company Harmony that allows users to send crypto between different blockchains.

I remember the authorities have also removed privacy coins in the exchanges before for the same reason but luckily those coins are still surviving.

regulators give guidance to VASP's and its the VASP that decides how much headache it wants to tolerate or avoid. and most VASPS just avoid accepting AEC to simply avoid questions/headaches later

[Dr.Bitcoin_Strange]

Anyone thinking that Bitcoin mixing is money laundering is just an idiot. They call it money laundering because they don't know what it is really all about, because the site maybe doesn't open in their country, and because they haven't held enough bitcoin that requires them to mix and gives them more security for their wallet.

I was not aware of Bitcoin mixing until I joined this forum, and even after joining, with always seeing the ChipMixer signature, I was prompted to search what Bitcoin mixing was really all about.

[arwin100]

Some other think about that this is scam and they need to get debunked because people need to understand that mixing service doesn't offer a investment plan to their user but rather a bitcoin mixing service. Its just this service has been used by many frauds that's the reason why they are been tagged as illegal operation by government.

Mixing service is not only used for illegal matter but also for legit transactions to but unfortunately the illegal matters are the only one government saw that's why they are not good with this service and shut then down for good.

[Fivestar4everMVP]

OP is right with his explanation, where the problem lies is that, majority find it difficult to differentiate, like the government or authorities that consider everything done in secret to mean that a crime is being committed, which of the time, its not always so..

Bitcoin mixing is not a crime and not an illegal service, if it is, then it simply means that privacy in itself is also illegal and a crime..
The authorities have their secret business, which we know nothing about, yet they expect us to report every single step we take to them, isnt that man's inhumanity to man?
They should stop chasing shadows, and start chasing the real criminals, going after bitcoin mixing service is the same as chasing shadows.

[1miau]

Some clarification is needed to this board due to the recent incident with ChipMixer.

A few years ago (in 2019), I've presented a statistic on Bitcointalk about mixers and illicit money: Chainalysis research reveals: only a small percentage of mixed coins are illegal
Let's have a look here:


Source

So, according to Chainalysis, only a small percentage of mixed funds are from illicit origin. I'm sure, the numbers don't have changed much (it's data from 2019).

ChipMixer's problem is very simple in my opinion: After operating since 2017 (for 6 years) it was known by many scammers, so recently, a lot of hacked, stolen or extorted funds went to ChipMixer.
But such high numbers for illicit funds are obviously specific for ChipMixer because it was known by scammers after operating for such a long time (which we didn't know until it was taken down).
It might look completely different for average mixers (similar to what Chainalysis found out) and only a small percentage of mixed coins are illegal.  

[sheenshane]

Mixing service is not only used for illegal matter but also for legit transactions to but unfortunately the illegal matters are the only one government saw that's why they are not good with this service and shut then down for good.

It's because it becomes abused and the illegal intention has grown more than the legal one due to a very well-known mixing service and the unique process of protecting your privacy.  Because this is the fact, Bitcoin mixing isn't inherently money laundering, it's simply a tool that can be used for both legitimate and illegitimate purposes, depending on the intentions of the users.

Chipmixer was a victim and abused for illegal activities because it can be used for illegal purposes, such as to hide the proceeds of criminal activity or to evade taxes, and even can clean dirty Bitcoin into a clean but not for a purpose of enhancing privacy.  It might be because of this matter the authorities take action to seize this kind of service because it's abused.

[arabspaceship123]

Who'll disagree Bitcoin mixing isn't money laundering per se. Bitcoin mixers aren't regulated so that's the reason they'll be used for predetermined money laundering by lawbreakers.

Some clarification is needed to this board due to the recent incident with ChipMixer.

To all advocates of anti-anonymous Bitcoin and Internet tools: Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se.

[Darker45]

Definition of Bitcoin mixing:

A cryptocurrency tumbler or cryptocurrency mixing service[1] is a service that mixes potentially identifiable or "tainted" cryptocurrency funds with others, so as to obscure the trail back to the fund's original source.

Even this definition of Bitcoin mixing by Wikipedia is a bit questionable. The connotation is still almost referring to money laundering, which isn't really true. Bitcoin mixing services in this definition simply doesn't appear as a neutral tool for privacy, which is wrong. It seems it is something that is not normally used by ordinary people.

If I were to define a Bitcoin mixing service, I'd simply say it's a tool by which Bitcoin funds are mixed with others to protect the user's privacy.