atuzai660619 (OP)
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 5
Merit: 0
|
|
July 05, 2023, 01:38:16 PM |
|
I am a fan of Bitcoin, I believe that to maintain the robustness of the Bitcoin network, independent and distinct full-node clients are particularly important. Imagine how horrible it would be if all the nodes of Bitcoin used the same software, the same version. Can Bitcoin still talk about decentralization?I noticed that libbitcoin, a standalone full-node client for Bitcoin, now has only one node running. I have a cloud server that runs bitcoin full node all year round, running bitcoin core software, and would like to switch to "libbitcoin". My cloud server is Windows operating system. I downloaded the related software for libbitcoin, but it does not work, prompting me to initialize it first. I still can't run this client after a lot of effort, is anyone willing to help me?
|
|
|
|
bitmover
Legendary
Online
Activity: 2422
Merit: 6216
Crypto Swap Exchange🈺
|
|
July 05, 2023, 05:49:37 PM |
|
I am a fan of Bitcoin, I believe that to maintain the robustness of the Bitcoin network, independent and distinct full-node clients are particularly important. Imagine how horrible it would be if all the nodes of Bitcoin used the same software, the same version. Can Bitcoin still talk about decentralization?I noticed that libbitcoin, a standalone full-node client for Bitcoin, now has only one node running. I have a cloud server that runs bitcoin full node all year round, running bitcoin core software, and would like to switch to "libbitcoin". My cloud server is Windows operating system. I downloaded the related software for libbitcoin, but it does not work, prompting me to initialize it first. I still can't run this client after a lot of effort, is anyone willing to help me?
Running the same software is not a problem, as long as the consensus rules that this software are decentralized. Nobody really has the power to chance those consensus rules alone. And there are also dozens of different bitcoin nodes, not only core. There are many spv wallets, prune nodes, other full nodes implementations, etc... Why do you want to run libbitcoin? If you want to run a full node, you should run bitcoin core which is the most used one, unless you really need something else. https://bitcoincore.org/en/download bitcoin is the most decentralized cryptocurrency that exists and there are thousands of full nodes running 24/7
|
|
|
|
NotATether
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1722
Merit: 7259
In memory of o_e_l_e_o
|
|
July 06, 2023, 10:29:40 AM |
|
Creating a full-node is very hard work which is akin to maintaining a large enterprise software repository. That's probably why you don't see that many Bitcoin clients popping up everywhere. Unlike, say, Ethereum, where it is companies who are the ones maintaining all the different reference clients.
But if you're still looking for an alternate full node client, you can use Bitcoin Knots (by luke dash-jr). I cannot vouch for it though, as I have never used it.
|
|
|
|
LoyceV
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3430
Merit: 17379
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
|
|
July 06, 2023, 11:29:13 AM |
|
Running the same software is not a problem, as long as the consensus rules that this software are decentralized. Agreed. If we couldn't trust Bitcoin Core, we'd have bigger problems to worry about. And even if the developers ever go evil and add bad stuff, we'll just stick to the older version and go from there.
|
|
|
|
odolvlobo
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 4438
Merit: 3386
|
|
July 06, 2023, 11:12:48 PM |
|
Running the same software is not a problem, as long as the consensus rules that this software are decentralized. Agreed. If we couldn't trust Bitcoin Core, we'd have bigger problems to worry about. And even if the developers ever go evil and add bad stuff, we'll just stick to the older version and go from there. The problem is not just trust. If everyone is running the same software then there is a risk of a serious bug that could take down the entire network. With multiple implementations, that risk is limited.
|
Join an anti-signature campaign: Click ignore on the members of signature campaigns. PGP Fingerprint: 6B6BC26599EC24EF7E29A405EAF050539D0B2925 Signing address: 13GAVJo8YaAuenj6keiEykwxWUZ7jMoSLt
|
|
|
LoyceV
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3430
Merit: 17379
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
|
The problem is not just trust. If everyone is running the same software then there is a risk of a serious bug that could take down the entire network. With multiple implementations, that risk is limited. You mean bugs like back in 2010, when someone created 184 Bitcoins? Different implementations might indeed reject those blocks instantly, but if any of the implementations would have a share >50%, it still wouldn't stop it. One way or another, it would need to be fixed and trigger a chain reorganization for anyone who's on the faulty chain, and don't think it's an improvement if different people see different blocks as the most recent ones.
|
|
|
|
LoyceV
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3430
Merit: 17379
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
|
|
July 07, 2023, 10:36:20 AM |
|
But i expect some pool and cryptocurrency company have their own full node implementation or at least use different publicly available full node implementation (such as bcoin[1] or libbitcoin[2]). That way, some pool would ignore invalid block and simply continue build longest valid chain which prevent the need of reorg. Still, in this scenario, that only applies to the pool that rejected the blocks. It would basically be a fork, and anyone on the wrong end would still need a reorg.
|
|
|
|
BlackHatCoiner
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1638
Merit: 8124
Bitcoin is a royal fork
|
|
July 09, 2023, 11:30:38 AM |
|
You mean bugs like back in 2010, when someone created 184 Bitcoins? Not just that kind of bugs. The robustness, as he says. See what happened with LND last year. Twitter user Burak did a 998-of-999 Tapscript multi-sig and crushed all LND nodes. The lightning network continued running, because other implementations (such as c-lightning) were existent. Sure, in terms of node connectivity, the network was damaged, but it didn't stop, and that's valuable if we're valuing decentralization.
|
|
|
|
|
EmpoEX
|
|
July 10, 2023, 01:20:19 PM |
|
It's better not to respond to those AI spammers!
|
|
|
|
atuzai660619 (OP)
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 5
Merit: 0
|
|
July 10, 2023, 05:03:46 PM |
|
|
|
|
|
Zoomic
Sr. Member
Offline
Activity: 560
Merit: 266
My post made philipma1957 wear signature
|
|
July 11, 2023, 12:32:39 PM |
|
bitcoin is the most decentralized cryptocurrency that exists and there are thousands of full nodes running 24/7
Is there any information to back this? Are full node operators actually in their thousands? I have always has the fear that the number of people running full node is reducing drastically.
|
|
|
|
bitmover
Legendary
Online
Activity: 2422
Merit: 6216
Crypto Swap Exchange🈺
|
|
July 11, 2023, 01:39:30 PM |
|
bitcoin is the most decentralized cryptocurrency that exists and there are thousands of full nodes running 24/7
Is there any information to back this? Are full node operators actually in their thousands? I have always has the fear that the number of people running full node is reducing drastically. This is a good question. Yes, there are tens of thousands or more. According to bitstamp (which is the oldest exchange still in operation quite reliable imo), there are even many nodes which are not reachedable https://www.bitstamp.net/learn/crypto-101/what-are-bitcoin-blockchain-nodes/Keeping Bitcoin decentralized
The Bitcoin network depends on the many random, unconnected users who run full nodes on their computers and thus keep Bitcoin decentralized. There are currently over 10,000 reachable full nodes distributed across the world. It is likely that the actual number of nodes is much higher. These are just those that can be reached by any node. Many nodes are inaccessible for several reasons. They might have gone offline or their owners might have chosen to disable incoming connections and, therefore, can’t be reached.
|
|
|
|
ranochigo
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3038
Merit: 4418
Crypto Swap Exchange
|
|
July 11, 2023, 01:53:58 PM |
|
Is there any information to back this? Are full node operators actually in their thousands? I have always has the fear that the number of people running full node is reducing drastically.
Roughly 16K, at least according to BitNodes though there isn't an accurate methodology to prove this; their crawler sends getaddr to nodes to get a list of IPs which are running a full node and the realtime number can vary drastically. Anyhow, the number shouldn't matter but the geographical distribution is by far more important. A vast majority of full nodes are Bitcoin Core and for a good reason as well. They are generally well tested and each commit is vetted fairly rigorously and the likelihood of a severe bug or an exploit is unlikely. Though that has happened in the past, most of it are not as severe or easy to execute as the development matures.
|
|
|
|
Zoomic
Sr. Member
Offline
Activity: 560
Merit: 266
My post made philipma1957 wear signature
|
|
July 12, 2023, 08:07:25 AM |
|
https://www.bitstamp.net/learn/crypto-101/what-are-bitcoin-blockchain-nodes/Keeping Bitcoin decentralized
There are currently over 10,000 reachable full nodes distributed across the world. It is likely that the actual number of nodes is much higher. These are just those that can be reached by any node. Many nodes are inaccessible for several reasons. They might have gone offline or their owners might have chosen to disable incoming connections and, therefore, can’t be reached. Roughly 16K, at least according to BitNodes though there isn't an accurate methodology to prove this; their crawler sends getaddr to nodes to get a list of IPs which are running a full node and the realtime number can vary drastically. Thanks for the information. Both are pointing towards same direction. There is atleast 10k active full nodes. According to the quote provided by bitmover, the number could be higher and I believe it is higher. Anyhow, the number shouldn't matter but the geographical distribution is by far more important.
Let's assume there are 10k active full nodes, and 85 percent of these nodes are concentrated in one country. What is the implication? - Will it mean any form of centralization?
- I think the major concern should be if the government of that country rises against bitcoin mining
|
|
|
|
ranochigo
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3038
Merit: 4418
Crypto Swap Exchange
|
Let's assume there are 10k active full nodes, and 85 percent of these nodes are concentrated in one country. What is the implication? - Will it mean any form of centralization?
- I think the major concern should be if the government of that country rises against bitcoin mining
Centralization and redundancy goes hand in hand. If for some reason, a certain country experiences a natural disaster or any form of attack that disrupts the internet connection, electricity, etc. You would see a pretty big drop in node count. It wouldn't pose as a critical threat but it is certainly not what we want. Bitcoin mining and running a Bitcoin node is quite different. Latter is harder to crackdown.
|
|
|
|
ABCbits
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2996
Merit: 7875
Crypto Swap Exchange
|
|
July 12, 2023, 09:54:41 AM |
|
bitcoin is the most decentralized cryptocurrency that exists and there are thousands of full nodes running 24/7
Is there any information to back this? Are full node operators actually in their thousands? I have always has the fear that the number of people running full node is reducing drastically. Here are link to up-to-date number, https://bitnodes.io/https://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/software.htmlAlthough it's true the number is far lower from decade ago.
|
|
|
|
ranochigo
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3038
Merit: 4418
Crypto Swap Exchange
|
|
July 12, 2023, 02:35:46 PM |
|
Hm? IIRC, the numbers that we have today is much higher than when I first discovered Bitcoin (in the range of 7-9k) and Bitnodes was running a campaign to encourage people to run full nodes. The only problem is that there is far higher proportions of nodes on datacenter ASNs than before.
|
|
|
|
bitmover
Legendary
Online
Activity: 2422
Merit: 6216
Crypto Swap Exchange🈺
|
|
July 12, 2023, 02:58:19 PM |
|
bitcoin is the most decentralized cryptocurrency that exists and there are thousands of full nodes running 24/7
Is there any information to back this? Are full node operators actually in their thousands? I have always has the fear that the number of people running full node is reducing drastically. Here are link to up-to-date number, https://bitnodes.io/https://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/software.htmlAlthough it's true the number is far lower from decade ago. Beautiful map. I think we have a nice geographical decentralization of bitcoin nodes. We don`t have as much nodes in developing countries because fewer people can afford one there. But developed countries have nice distribution. source: https://bitnodes.io/
|
|
|
|
joniboini
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2310
Merit: 1803
|
|
July 13, 2023, 01:58:36 AM |
|
Although it's true the number is far lower from decade ago.
May I know the statistic for this? As far as I can tell, according to Bitnodes the last few years never surpass the current number of nodes. Well, technically the highest is around 17k according to them. I can't find the data for the last decade (back to 2013, for example)[1]. Other sources also seem to give the same picture[2]. CMIIW. [1] https://bitnodes.io/dashboard/7y/[2] https://coin.dance/nodes
|
| CHIPS.GG | | | ▄▄███████▄▄ ▄████▀▀▀▀▀▀▀████▄ ▄███▀░▄░▀▀▀▀▀░▄░▀███▄ ▄███░▄▀░░░░░░░░░▀▄░███▄ ▄███░▄░░░▄█████▄░░░▄░███▄ ███░▄▀░░░███████░░░▀▄░███ ███░█░░░▀▀▀▀▀░░░▀░░░█░███ ███░▀▄░▄▀░▄██▄▄░▀▄░▄▀░███ ▀███░▀░▀▄██▀░▀██▄▀░▀░███▀ ▀███░▀▄░░░░░░░░░▄▀░███▀ ▀███▄░▀░▄▄▄▄▄░▀░▄███▀ ▀████▄▄▄▄▄▄▄████▀ █████████████████████████ | | ▄▄███████▄▄ ▄███████████████▄ ▄█▀▀▀▄█████████▄▀▀▀█▄ ▄██████▀▄█▄▄▄█▄▀██████▄ ▄████████▄█████▄████████▄ ████████▄███████▄████████ ███████▄█████████▄███████ ███▄▄▀▀█▀▀█████▀▀█▀▀▄▄███ ▀█████████▀▀██▀█████████▀ ▀█████████████████████▀ ▀███████████████████▀ ▀████▄▄███▄▄████▀ ████████████████████████ | | 3000+ UNIQUE GAMES | | | 12+ CURRENCIES ACCEPTED | | | VIP REWARD PROGRAM | | ◥ | Play Now |
|
|
|
|