Mixing coins through exchanges

[Kruw]

Indeed. I should be doing that. Thanks for pointing out, and I'm honestly concerned how I hadn't done my self-criticism about that yet. It's easier to pinpoint strangers' mistakes than ours, apparently. I'll be resigning the signature campaign at the end of this week.

My morals are worth more than that.

I'll hold my applause until I see what you replace it with.

o_e_l_e_o - You are supporting blockchain analysis and censorship by promoting [banned mixer] which you say a direct attack on Bitcoin itself, have you contacted MixTum to tell them to shut down their service or is your paycheck stopping you?

By definition they are pro-censorship and therefore anti-fungibility. This is a direct attack on bitcoin itself.

The correct thing to do would be to shut down their centralized coordinator and work towards setting up decentralized ones.

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[o_e_l_e_o]

Point to where in their Terms they say they are funding blockchain analysis companies like Wasabi does.

[Kruw]

Point to where in their Terms they say they are funding blockchain analysis companies like Wasabi does.

Mixtum is a blockchain analysis company, you can read it right on their front page:

]3. Quality scoring of incoming transactions
We run a thorough background check of incoming funds through a proprietary algorithm.

[Poker Player]

Your withdrawal would then come from one of the colder wallets (not from the address you deposited to, and not necessarily the address your deposit was moved to).

I did that at first but with casinos. But you can do it only with casinos without KYC and without wagering requirements, which are almost non-existent nowadays.

To make potential outside observers lose track of my transactions on the blockchain, I deposited from different addresses of mine, but creating each time a different deposit address in the casino. Then I withdrew. The withdrawals always came from a large address that had nothing to do with any of the others, as my deposits had not yet moved from the original address. Once I checked a while after the withdrawal was done and I saw that my deposits had been consolidated at another address, which was not the one from which the withdrawal was sent to me.

If someone wanted to track me down, she was lost. Of course the casino will know more about me than an outside observer and the government might require the casino to give them information from me but good luck sending subpoenas to Curacao to find out what happened to a few hundred dollars in Bitcoin.

Obviously, mixers are better, but this type of "mix" can be used in some case, such as the one I have explained.

[o_e_l_e_o]

]3. Quality scoring of incoming transactions
We run a thorough background check of incoming funds through a proprietary algorithm.

Scenario A - you send me coins and I take a look at them.

Scenario B - you send me coins. I then pay blockchain analysis entities for as much dirt on those coins as possible, using their vast mountains of data, their information gathered from various exchanges/services/governments that they work with, the nodes and light wallet servers that they run, their blockchain heuristics and countless previous analyses and investigations, their millions of data points that they buy and sell from third parties and from each other, including non-blockchain information such as KYC data, IP addresses, geolocations, and so forth.

If you honestly don't see the difference between these two scenarios then I really don't know what to say.

[Kruw]

]3. Quality scoring of incoming transactions
We run a thorough background check of incoming funds through a proprietary algorithm.

Scenario A - you send me coins and I take a look at them.

Scenario B - you send me coins. I then pay blockchain analysis entities for as much dirt on those coins as possible, using their vast mountains of data, their information gathered from various exchanges/services/governments that they work with, the nodes and light wallet servers that they run, their blockchain heuristics and countless previous analyses and investigations, their millions of data points that they buy and sell from third parties and from each other, including non-blockchain information such as KYC data, IP addresses, geolocations, and so forth.

If you honestly don't see the difference between these two scenarios then I really don't know what to say.

How does this make a difference to the end user?  You don't seem to have any real statistics about how many nodes MixTum is using to collect IP addresses and xpub addresses by utilizing the data leaks in wallets such as Sparrow, or how much information MixTum has gathered from the exchanges, services, and governments they work with, or how much data MixTum buys or sells with third parties.  All you know so far is that they are using a "proprietary algorithm" to spy on the funds deposited by their users.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Point to where in their Terms they say they are funding blockchain analysis companies like Wasabi does.

They aren't funding blockchain analysis, that's just bullshit.

They do however claim that in order to use their service, you mustn't be involved in some illicit activity, so some coins are blacklisted. So they do censor.

How does this make a difference to the end user?

There's objectively difference between checking someone's coins, perhaps to comply with regulations, and using someone's coins to fund surveillance firm to spy on them. There just is.

[Kruw]

There's objectively difference between checking someone's coins, perhaps to comply with regulations, and using someone's coins to fund surveillance firm to spy on them. There just is.

The effect on the end user is the same whether the task is outsourced or not.

Scenario A:  You get murdered by someone
Scenario B: Someone hires an assassin to murder you

The end user can't tell the difference.

[BlackHatCoiner]

The end user can't tell the difference.

The point isn't if the end user can tell the difference. The point is if there's a difference. And there's a difference between funding a chain analysis, versus not funding it. There just is. The result isn't the same.

[Kruw]

The end user can't tell the difference.

The point isn't if the end user can tell the difference. The point is if there's a difference. And there's a difference between funding a chain analysis, versus not funding it. There just is.

You seem to be confused.  MixTum is a chain analysis company, they say they are performing the thorough background check on their users with a proprietary algorithm.

[BlackHatCoiner]

You seem to be confused.  MixTum is a chain analysis company, they say they are performing the chain analysis on their users with a proprietary algorithm.

Merely "viewing coins in the blockchain" isn't blockchain analysis. It would require much more than a proprietary algorithm to be considered a chain analysis company, such as access to personal data from exchanges. They neither inspect and visually represent blockchain data. Just as the default coordinator from Wasabi is neither a chain analysis company if it was rejecting coins from a particular list of UTXOs some company gave to it.

For the multiple time, it isn't funding chain analysis.

[Kruw]

Merely "viewing coins in the blockchain" isn't blockchain analysis. It would require much more than a proprietary algorithm to be considered a chain analysis company, such as access to personal data from exchanges. They neither inspect and visually represent blockchain data. Just as the default coordinator from Wasabi is neither a chain analysis company if it was rejecting coins from a particular list of UTXOs some company gave to it.

For the multiple time, it isn't funding chain analysis.

I don't know where you got the idea that that Mixtum is "Merely viewing coins on the blockchain", MixTum says they do a "Thorough background check" using a "proprietary algorithm".

[BlackHatCoiner]

MixTum says they do a "Thorough background check" using a "proprietary algorithm".

I can also do that. I'm not a chain analysis company.

[Kruw]

MixTum says they do a "Thorough background check" using a "proprietary algorithm".

I can also do that. I'm not a chain analysis company.

If your company performs chain analysis using a proprietary algorithm, that makes you a chain analysis company by definition.

[BlackHatCoiner]

If your company performs chain analysis using a proprietary algorithm, that makes you a chain analysis company by definition.

I'm not going to stick with the definition. Either way, there's a difference between using an algorithm to check coins versus funding the development of entities, officially recognized as doing chain analysis, with vast amount of data from governments, exchanges and other such firms, and with access to input such as IP addresses, KYC data etc.

It's pretty clear from the beginning though that you only see things as black or white. No in-between. Instead of acting the judge in the Bitcoin court, derailing the thread, would you like to talk with us about the part where you're recommending a practice that literally supports the development of effective chain analysis, from developers who're doxxing their competitors and outright lying about their product?

[Kruw]

I'm not going to stick with the definition.

Pretending definitions don't exist doesn't change anything about MixTum users having a thorough background check run on their deposits by MixTum's proprietary algorithm.  Asserting a carve-out for the service that pays you to post here is nonsense and you know it.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Okay, so you don't have anything to say about Wasabi. How unusual. 

[Kruw]

A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by a Bitcoin Forum moderator. Posts are most frequently deleted because they are off-topic, though they can also be deleted for other reasons. In the future, please avoid posting things that need to be deleted.

Okay, so you don't have anything to say about Wasabi. How unusual. 

What question about Wasabi do you have?  I'll answer it.

It is unclear to me why this post was deleted.  Since I am being accused of silence, this post serves as proof I am being open and transparent.

[satscraper]

Merely "viewing coins in the blockchain" isn't blockchain analysis. It would require much more than a proprietary algorithm to be considered a chain analysis company, such as access to personal data from exchanges. They neither inspect and visually represent blockchain data. Just as the default coordinator from Wasabi is neither a chain analysis company if it was rejecting coins from a particular list of UTXOs some company gave to it.

For the multiple time, it isn't funding chain analysis.

I don't know where you got the idea that that Mixtum is "Merely viewing coins on the blockchain", MixTum says they do a "Thorough background check" using a "proprietary algorithm".

Curious information for me. After your words I sieved their FAQa and opened  docs to find more details on this but not succeeded.  Could you head me to exact place where they say about UTXOs check  with their  proprietary algorithm.

Is  there any chance that they might follow in the steps of Wasabi   and cooperate with chainanalysis agencies to filter/blacklist some UTXOs sent for mixing?

[Kruw]

Curious information for me. After your words I sieved their FAQa and opened  docs to find more details on this but not succeeded.  Could you head me to exact place where they say about UTXOs check  with their  proprietary algorithm.

It's on the front page, "[banned mixer]".  Number 3 under "How it works".

Is  there any chance that they might follow in the steps of Wasabi   and cooperate with chainanalysis agencies to filter/blacklist some UTXOs sent for mixing?

MixTum's filtering/blacklisting poses a threat to users since they control their funds, whereas blacklisting from a Wasabi coinjoin coordinator does not affect the funds or privacy of the blocked user.