High fees are not bitcoin's destinty

[franky1]

Before I address the rest of the topic, let me start by addressing:

There ARE ways that could potentially help with the spam that's causing the blockchain bloat. To name a few:

1. Disincentivizing on-chain NFTs and tokens creations by removing their fee discounts wherever possible.

The disincentive already exists, the fee to mint ordinals are already much higher than that of a standard Bitcoin transaction.

no
currently its just fee/vb where by if a ordinals bloater puts 3000000bytes extra into a tx, he pays 3000000bytes worth of sats extra, but at the 'freemarket' feerate everyone complies with

but he also causes the fee rate to go up by taking up the space. thus causing everyone to pay more

however there are ways to actually make it so those using certain opcodes pay MULTIPLES, so that bloaters fee rate for him changes
that way normal bitcoin opcode users pay EG 2sat/vb but those using opcodes ordinals use pay 200sat/vb
thus penalising them independently

rather than the current system that causes everyone to pay more sat/vb due to ordinals

The way Bitcoin is heading is the intersection of Block Rewards with Fees. Before it was less about fees and more about the price vs. Block reward...but as we've travelled, fees have become more of a factor. If the Bitcoin network is not active enough to make up the difference in the block reward halving every 4 years, miners won't find it profitable and will stop mining.

the way bitcoin is heading is the bad economics of sticking to a ~4000tx average limit where people need to pay more to entertain miners costs.
however good economics is to increase transaction count. where the transaction count numbers entertains miners costs

you think this is the plan:
4000tx paying $2 = $8k needs to become 4000tx paying $16=$64k

however removing some of the cludgy byte miscounting and allowing full real block utility of the current 4mb space can get 16000 tx
and then increasing blockspace just 2x can get to 32,000tx
where by 32,000tx can pay $2 for a total of $64k

no need to get users to pay $16+ when they can continue to pay <$2

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

Many people are taking time to bring up discussion on the bitcoin transaction fee since it recent hype in transaction fee, this had already happened once few months ago before it second attempts to clog the entire bitcoin network, this is an irregular experience and the impact don't seems to contain a long lasting solution on the mempool for congestion not to take place, it's not much that we cannot have a solution in more other ways but things needed to be done accordingly.

[digaran]

Paying for block space will always need to be a thing for Bitcoin to survive long term. The cost of that space will likely depend on the value provided. During times of calamity, I could see Bitcoin becoming very expensive to use. Maybe $100 for a transaction. Other times when block space may not be as valuable, it will cost less. This supply and demand bidding will be more and more important as block rewards are reduced.

Bitcoin is not a cellar to store wine no matter how good the quality of wine is, Bitcoin originally was invented to become a decentralized banking system, removing the man in the middle, but now we have men, women, children in the middle because everyone can do whatever they want.

Don't tell me if fees are $100 per TX, you wouldn't consider looking for cheaper alternatives. The actual concern here is : if a user starts thinking about alternatives, Bitcoin would definitely start to decline, it won't happen over night, but you would see it happening. Just imagine how long it took for these new garbage ordinal etc, to attract people, all it takes now is a similar situation where something new or even old is reintroduced to the world, then the actual originally intended userbase would migrate to the new system.

We already have the best examples in nature, e.g, by looking at how ants behave, once a new queen is born, their entire community splits, most will take the new queen somewhere else to start a new community.
Now we can sense that there is a possibility for a new queen emerging, but why should we risk it to find out when it's already too late? Even if %30 of community pledges loyalty to a new queen, we should kiss goodbye to %30 potential growth of Bitcoin.

[panganib999]

I don't think that the ordinals are the only ones to blame for the high bitcoin transaction bloat. Keep in mind that this has been a problem in this network even before Ordinals came into the scene and to top it all off, miners and validators have all the rights to opt out of processing transactions that are related to ordinals and inscribing. And not even its "second-layer solutions" proved potent enough to solve this particular problem in bitcoin's case. Thing is, if we want bitcoin to be more scalable and less hefty when charging fees, we need a complete system overhaul that would literally fix the network from the ground up. But that would mean serious business and we might just lose 10+ years of building all because we wanted to pay less for transaction fees. Is it really that worth it?

You're probably right, it's not in our destiny to pay for stupid high fees in the bitcoin network, but unless you could provide a fool-proof solution that wouldn't bring more ifs than the problems we already have to begin with, we'll gladly stick to this current system.

[hatshepsut93]

Are you then confirming that the fate of Bitcoin is high fees? My answer is yes, not immediately but it will eventually get their. Mining is a business and all businesses thrive on profits. When block reward hits zero, miners must find a way to remain in profits as without them there will be chaos.

I don't know if this was set out ab initio by Satoshi himself, and if that be the case, it makes the whole thing complex. How do we push for mainstream adoption of Bitcoin when the fees sending a Bitcoin transaction is triple that of conventional payment system? How do one opt for Bitcoin transaction when it takes days to settle payments if the high fees are not paid?

There are many things that are not so clear about the future of Bitcoin

I doubt that miners have any mechanism to artificially raise fees to keep being profitable, after all if they could, what would stop them from doing it right now even while there are coinbase rewards?

I think Satoshi originally hoped that blocks will be larger, so a bigger number of transactions with smaller fees would net the same reward as fewer transactions but with larger fees. As for how would Bitcoin be viable - either LN will be succesfull and the onchain fees will be like service fee for using LN, or Bitcoin will just be a store of value and people will only do large transactions where fees are not as noticeable.

[alani123]

Welp, I was dared to create a thread specifically discussing a potential max block size increase... So here we go:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5474329.msg63169376#msg63169376

Feel free to drop by, vote, and give your two cents on the matter. In 2023 we shouldn't consider this matter as taboo. Right?!
Let's see what the sentiment is now that years have passed since the so called "block size wars".

[Webetcoins]

The Bitcoin miners don't mind the Ordinals, because they make bigger profits from higher transaction fees.
If there wasn't any Ordinals, another feature might be introduced and it will congest the BTC blockchain with transactions that will be viewed as unnecessary by most Bitcoiners. We have to face the truth, that the Bitcoin Core blockchain simply cannot handle massive amounts of transactions without getting congested. This is one of the problems that will always stop the mass adoption of Bitcoin. Making the block size bigger doesn't solve the problem and BCH is a living proof. Bitcoin isn't perfect. Bitcoin isn't a financial panacea for all problems.

Maybe some miners are that greedy to only prioritize the transaction with a higher fee but I believe there are still left who can take anything because at the end of the day, it was still money and it'll still stack quickly if they will just move and move, and never get idle because they are waiting for something huge.

There are now ordinals but even so, I think the innovation won't stop there. You know the experts, they are always thinking of something new to be introduced to the public. But even without them, transaction fees can still increase some times. We already witnessed it before.

Some of the new functions might be unnecessary to us, but we can't do much about it, than to simply ignore it. Mass adoption is already here and will continue. It won't be stopped only because of the fee issues. BTC isn't perfect but that's okay. There are still alts and tokens. However even them also have some flaws. That is because nothing is perfect in this world. Yes BTC isn't a panacea or a solution for all problems, many of us already knows this but some should accept it, if they haven't yet.

[KFC786]

Bitcoin is a crypto that's fee was mere cents when it was created and now it has thousands of percentage in growth and that's why it's very difficult to imagine sending Bitcoin with such high level of fee.
So their owner is anonymous so maybe no changes he ever made.

[adaseb]

Today I wanted to get a transaction out but the fees were crazy nuts. Everytime I looked it was like 250sat/btye. Upon research I found out some new ordinal token is coming out and it’s causing massive fees on the bitcoin blockchain.

Basically not an urgent transactions so will wait it out. But lately it’s getting to the point where ETH has cheaper transactions than BTC which is the complete opposite of the 2021 bull market.