The Paradox of Privacy and Decentralization: Banning Mixers on Bitcointalk.org

[Kakmakr]

The thing is.... Bitcoin Mixers are the big unknown. We have seen Bitcoin Mixers saying that they are not logging any traffic and then it gets shut down and you find that they have stored Terabytes of data that are raided by law enforcement.

There are Mixers out there that are most probably "Honey Traps" for criminals and they are being used by law enforcement to monitor transactions. (Like some Exit Nodes on Tor) 

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[DooMAD]

The thing is.... Bitcoin Mixers are the big unknown. We have seen Bitcoin Mixers saying that they are not logging any traffic and then it gets shut down and you find that they have stored Terabytes of data that are raided by law enforcement.

Did we ever get confirmation it was user data, though?  Innocent until proven guilty and all that.  For all we know, authorities could have seized a bunch of full nodes, each with their own copy of the Bitcoin blockchain.

But yes, Mixers are far from perfect.  They absolutely require trust.  I'm hoping this is something that will improve over time.  Wherever possible, we should aim to employ a "trustless" model.

[kryptqnick]

I think that a post by theymos about mixers is very well-written and explains why they are going to be banned on the forum. The argumentation is very rational, based on the pattern of mixers being declared illegal when they get big.
Moreover, Bitcointalk is a forum, so it's for discussions, and even with the ban, it will be allowed to discuss mixers in general, as long as they don't provide links and direct people toward particular mixers.
I personally have never used mixers, so it won't affect me in any way. While I support the values of privacy and decentralization, they aren't absolute and primary values to me, so I wouldn't stand by mixers when they're becoming illegal.

[DaveF]

The thing is.... Bitcoin Mixers are the big unknown. We have seen Bitcoin Mixers saying that they are not logging any traffic and then it gets shut down and you find that they have stored Terabytes of data that are raided by law enforcement.

Did we ever get confirmation it was user data, though?  Innocent until proven guilty and all that.  For all we know, authorities could have seized a bunch of full nodes, each with their own copy of the Bitcoin blockchain.

But yes, Mixers are far from perfect.  They absolutely require trust.  I'm hoping this is something that will improve over time.  Wherever possible, we should aim to employ a "trustless" model.

No confirmation as to what they have. And I would go so far as to say that since it's an ongoing investigation no confirmation of anything will come out until the investigation is done.
There will be rumor, innuendo and conjecture. But no hard data.

-Dave

[franky1]

doomad motto:
"just have faith and trust and belief in services doomad promotes. dont scrutinise or criticise them"
"be patient the actual things may happen in the future"
but real privacy people want to know and want to ensure their transfers are not tracked by service promoted as "no tracking" now. not having to blindly trust and then only scrutinise once caught, to then investigate and decide in a court room..

gotta laugh when troll sig campaigners blindly idolise/defend project manager they promote, rather then scrutinise and review the feature the service is SUPPOSE to offer to protect the users
when a troll defends a business rather then care about the customer experience/risk.. that troll becomes a sell out

[LeGaulois]

@Kakmakr @DooMAD @DaveF

You're taking Chipmixer as an example (and as @DaveF says there is no confirmation as to what they have) but I can mention Bestmixer, back in 2019.

What happened: While seizing the few servers used, they collected IP addresses, chat messages, TXs details, and BTC addresses.
And it's not a speculation, it was annonced by Europol and others LEs.
I remember several months later, one of the customers who had been using bestmixer was arrested. They seized gold, luxury watches, BTC wallets and other stuff from him.

[DaveF]

@Kakmakr @DooMAD @DaveF

You're taking Chipmixer as an example (and as @DaveF says there is no confirmation as to what they have) but I can mention Bestmixer, back in 2019.

What happened: While seizing the few servers used, they collected IP addresses, chat messages, TXs details, and BTC addresses.
And it's not a speculation, it was annonced by Europol and others LEs.
I remember several months later, one of the customers who had been using bestmixer was arrested. They seized gold, luxury watches, BTC wallets and other stuff from him.

Yes I was talking Chipmixer & sinbad. Both are still listed as 'ongoing'.
Bestmixer and a couple of others we know what they have because they told us as you pointed out, but that was after they were arresting people and doing other things with the data.
AFAIK there have been no arrests from these last 2 nor any official statements of exactly what data they have.

-Dave