China's economy is very sick. What to prepare for?

[spectre71]

I would love to see Chinese government burn down to the ground. We need to stop sending them our business, they are massive polluters and desamate the oceans.

No such thing as a good commy. I hope the common people overcome the CCP and live better.

[DrBeer]

On the one hand, I hear the news that the economic condition of China is bad, on the other hand, I see that China is undertaking mega projects and they are working on those mega projects with their own funding. If China's economic situation was so bad, they would struggle to implement the billion dollar projects they have undertaken but they are doing them very naturally. China's economy is strong enough and they will not fall into economic crisis so easily. They have all kinds of technology, besides they export a lot of products and they build various mega projects in most countries of the world, we cannot think of their economic condition as weak. I have faith in China that they can improve their economic condition before they know it can get worse.

Funding megaprojects ? Are you serious?  They didn't save Evergrande for lack of money. Evergrande, which formed the largest sector of the economy, then it went down the drain. They can't save the stock market because they don't have the money. They have yuan, they have a lot of yuan. But they have very little money left. Everything they "fund" is just as much for show as ghost town projects. And it can all be called in one word "propaganda" to try to show that "all is well", in a dusty house that is already leaning sideways from a fire....

[franky1]

On the one hand, I hear the news that the economic condition of China is bad, on the other hand, I see that China is undertaking mega projects and they are working on those mega projects with their own funding. If China's economic situation was so bad, they would struggle to implement the billion dollar projects they have undertaken but they are doing them very naturally. China's economy is strong enough and they will not fall into economic crisis so easily. They have all kinds of technology, besides they export a lot of products and they build various mega projects in most countries of the world, we cannot think of their economic condition as weak. I have faith in China that they can improve their economic condition before they know it can get worse.

Funding megaprojects ? Are you serious?  They didn't save Evergrande for lack of money. Evergrande, which formed the largest sector of the economy, then it went down the drain. They can't save the stock market because they don't have the money. They have yuan, they have a lot of yuan. But they have very little money left. Everything they "fund" is just as much for show as ghost town projects. And it can all be called in one word "propaganda" to try to show that "all is well", in a dusty house that is already leaning sideways from a fire....

china (mainland) let evergrande(company) fail because evergrande incorporated in hong kong gov, not beijing gov.. so let hong kong litigate and decide on the bankruptcy.
evergrandes assets(land) was in mainland so hong kong had no rights to asset grab from mainland so had to let evergrande(company) sink
in short it was not the mainland gov responsibility to bail out the evergrande company as it never registered as a business of the mainland

however the land plot evergrande owned on the mainland the beijing(mainland gov) is actually dealing with those land plots. and doing deals to get the unfinished buildings on that land finished, without causing a real estate market crash

[DrBeer]

On the one hand, I hear the news that the economic condition of China is bad, on the other hand, I see that China is undertaking mega projects and they are working on those mega projects with their own funding. If China's economic situation was so bad, they would struggle to implement the billion dollar projects they have undertaken but they are doing them very naturally. China's economy is strong enough and they will not fall into economic crisis so easily. They have all kinds of technology, besides they export a lot of products and they build various mega projects in most countries of the world, we cannot think of their economic condition as weak. I have faith in China that they can improve their economic condition before they know it can get worse.

Funding megaprojects ? Are you serious?  They didn't save Evergrande for lack of money. Evergrande, which formed the largest sector of the economy, then it went down the drain. They can't save the stock market because they don't have the money. They have yuan, they have a lot of yuan. But they have very little money left. Everything they "fund" is just as much for show as ghost town projects. And it can all be called in one word "propaganda" to try to show that "all is well", in a dusty house that is already leaning sideways from a fire....

china (mainland) let evergrande(company) fail because evergrande incorporated in hong kong gov, not beijing gov.. so let hong kong litigate and decide on the bankruptcy.
evergrandes assets(land) was in mainland so hong kong had no rights to asset grab from mainland so had to let evergrande(company) sink
in short it was not the mainland gov responsibility to bail out the evergrande company as it never registered as a business of the mainland

however the land plot evergrande owned on the mainland the beijing(mainland gov) is actually dealing with those land plots. and doing deals to get the unfinished buildings on that land finished, without causing a real estate market crash

China Evergrande Group is a diversified Chinese investment holding company, the largest residential real estate operator in the southern province of Guangdong and one of the largest real estate operators in China (ranked among the country's twenty largest companies). Founded in 1996, formally registered in the Cayman Islands, the actual headquarters is located in Shenzhen.

We believe that the Cayman Islands is actually the problem ?

Well, you are an intelligent adult, let's not manipulate the place of "domicile" of a legal entity. You know very well that all the corporation's assets are Chinese projects. Or do you want to say that millions and millions of square meters of housing built by Evergrande in Hong Kong?
A huge number of subcontractors and manufacturers were involved in Evergrand projects. They also found themselves, if not on the verge of bankruptcy, then at least their financial turnovers fell tenfold.... I am used to telling the truth, even if it is not pleasant or even profitable for me. But it is the truth. Let's also speak the truth about the situation under discussion, even if it is not pleasant for someone!

[Wind_FURY]

China has already made the pivot/has started pumping money back into their economy, although taking it in a slower, less-aggressive path, not like how the Federal Reserve has done it. Chinese economists might learn a HARD lesson.

The aggressiveness of the U.S. in practicing Keynesian Economics was made out of its mistakes they learned that when pumping money to boost the economy, it's better to do it with more than enough money than not enough money because doing it and failing would, regardless, make them pump more money.

[stompix]

If China's economic situation was so bad, they would struggle to implement the billion dollar projects they have undertaken but they are doing them very naturally.

That's what all communist countries do!
Put in billions in mega projects that become a liability the next year just for a show of power, nothing has changed from the last century!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_the_Parliament

Among the materials are 3,500 tonnes of crystal – 480 chandeliers, 1,409 ceiling lights and mirrors were manufactured; 700,000 tonnes of steel and bronze for monumental doors and windows, chandeliers and capitals; 1,000,000 m3 (35,000,000 cu ft) of marble,[37] 900,000 m3 (32,000,000 cu ft) of wood[38] (over 95% domestic) for parquet and wainscotting, including walnut, oak, sweet cherry, elm, sycamore maple; 200,000 m2 (2,200,000 sq ft) of woollen carpets of various dimensions (machines had to be moved inside the building to weave some of the larger carpets); velvet and brocade curtains adorned with embroideries and passementeries in silver and gold.

Meanwhile Romania was rationing food!

China's economy is strong enough and they will not fall into economic crisis so easily.

They just did, losing 7 trillions in the stock market and drowning even Hong Kong in it
In Hong Kong, decades of wealth gains evaporate on China’s watch

But eveything is fine in China, it's the US that's in trouble, right?  

In 2023, Chinese migrants become the largest group outside the Americas to cross the treacherous region to reach the US. More than 37,000 Chinese citizens were arrested for illegally crossing the southern border of the US in 2023, according to US Customs and Border Protection. That number is nearly 10 times the total in 2022 and  more than double that of the entire previous decade.

[tyz]

I would love to see Chinese government burn down to the ground. We need to stop sending them our business, they are massive polluters and desamate the oceans.

No such thing as a good commy. I hope the common people overcome the CCP and live better.

That is too short-sighted. What many people don't take into account is that China has a strong deflationary effect on prices by producing goods very cheaply with its large population and cheap energy and exporting them to all countries in the world. Without the goods from China, many things would be much more expensive, which would also make many people in other countries "poorer" or less able to afford them.

[stompix]

That is too short-sighted. What many people don't take into account is that China has a strong deflationary effect on prices by producing goods very cheaply with its large population and cheap energy and exporting them to all countries in the world. Without the goods from China, many things would be much more expensive, which would also make many people in other countries "poorer" or less able to afford them.

Without goods for China there will be goods from Mexico and India, as they have already started to be.

Second, I must say that I love how you "care" about the poor people that can only afford cheap Chinese goods that are so only because of "cheap" laborforce which means...poor people . Second, China's energy is by no means cheap, there are a ton of countries with cheaper energy be it gas or oil (which China imports) as well as electricity and with people what will work for less.
Once large companies move their productions somewhere else wit will be game over and nobody will care, and that is actually happening
https://www.npr.org/2024/02/08/1229965009/mexico-has-overtaken-china-as-the-leading-source-of-goods-imported-to-the-u-s

[Wind_FURY]

That is too short-sighted. What many people don't take into account is that China has a strong deflationary effect on prices by producing goods very cheaply with its large population and cheap energy and exporting them to all countries in the world. Without the goods from China, many things would be much more expensive, which would also make many people in other countries "poorer" or less able to afford them.

Without goods for China there will be goods from Mexico and India, as they have already started to be.

I believe during the next decade, it's going to be India's turn to rise as the next Super Power, and it might be with the help of the United States. A strong, supportive ally located near China will be definitely be an advantage. It's also more favorable for the United Stares to partner with India to be their main producer of manufactured goods. They have a growing labor force, the people speak English, they have the technical knowledge, and it's as cheap to manufacture goods in India as in China.

Plus India has the smartest, and highly intelligent people in world. It has manifested in their Space Program, they developed they're own Nuclear Weapons Program, some of the front-runners in I.T. are in India as well.

[franky1]

china (mainland) let evergrande(company) fail because evergrande incorporated in hong kong gov, not beijing gov.. so let hong kong litigate and decide on the bankruptcy.
evergrandes assets(land) was in mainland so hong kong had no rights to asset grab from mainland so had to let evergrande(company) sink
in short it was not the mainland gov responsibility to bail out the evergrande company as it never registered as a business of the mainland

however the land plot evergrande owned on the mainland the beijing(mainland gov) is actually dealing with those land plots. and doing deals to get the unfinished buildings on that land finished, without causing a real estate market crash

China Evergrande Group is a diversified Chinese investment holding company, the largest residential real estate operator in the southern province of Guangdong and one of the largest real estate operators in China (ranked among the country's twenty largest companies). Founded in 1996, formally registered in the Cayman Islands, the actual headquarters is located in Shenzhen.

We believe that the Cayman Islands is actually the problem ?

Well, you are an intelligent adult, let's not manipulate the place of "domicile" of a legal entity. You know very well that all the corporation's assets are Chinese projects. Or do you want to say that millions and millions of square meters of housing built by Evergrande in Hong Kong?
A huge number of subcontractors and manufacturers were involved in Evergrand projects. They also found themselves, if not on the verge of bankruptcy, then at least their financial turnovers fell tenfold.... I am used to telling the truth, even if it is not pleasant or even profitable for me. But it is the truth. Let's also speak the truth about the situation under discussion, even if it is not pleasant for someone!

"place of domicile" "caymen islands" i never even spoke those words..
read my quote that you quoted

I TOLD YOU that the millions and millions of square meters of housing was on MAINLAND
I TOLD YOU the evergrande business(not assets) was registered in hong kong(check the HK stock exchange listing)
YOU ARE manipulating things to pretend i am suggesting the housing was in hong kong

only you seem confused about the details.. but a 20 second google search could have cleared things up for you

also hong hong courts decided on the status of evergrande(business), and ordered them to close down the business and liquidate,
mainland courts had no jurisdiction over the business so let it fail, no bail out of the business as its not their problem

because evergrande registered with hong kong.. its on the HONG KONG stock market..(you can check it out yourself in a 10 second google search)
so the business was honk kong problem

hong kong do not have control to decide on what happens to the property on the mainland... china mainland have the authority to make decisions on the property because its on their land.

hong hong decide on the BUSINESS
mainland decide on the PROPERTY
get it yet

as for you thinking 'if a physical building called HQ is in state A thats where it domiciles," so that in your false belief view is "the state/province that courts/laws the company need to follow" you would be incorrect

many businesses across the world have physical offices in A.. and assets in B.. but register in C (all over the place)
the business is in control of C courts. the assets is in control of B court

the hong honk court ordered evergrande(business) to winde-down/liquidate/shutdown.. not cayman islands, not mainland china.. but hong kong cant take control of the property as the property is not hong kong based so the property is legally in the hands of chinese mainland courts/banks

so heres a plan for you
google: "hong kong evergrande"
and realise that it actually was hong kong court that litigated evergrandes demise.. not mainland
google: "evergrande assets mainland"
and realise that 90% of assets were on mainland which honk kong courts had no control over
its upto china mainland court and banks to decide how to sell off the property.

are you clear on the details now?
if not, dont hit reply just yet, instead: do the research and clear things up for your own sake.. then reply realising that court filings and registrations to stock exchanges and locations of property have more factual correlation to what i said rather than what you have insinuated

then we can move on with the debate..
.. moving on to things like:
china mainland dont want to cause their real estate market to crash by selling unfinished property at a discount.. so their plan is to sell the property at market rate as if its finished. but as a back-hander side deal give the investors/owners a gold brick as a form of 'cash-back"
this trick is done to show on official real estate market sales receipts that X square meter of property is still selling at healthy market rate. to avoid real estate market crashes

[panganib999]

It's no secret that after the Kovid pandemic, China's economy has been hit pretty hard. Further problems were a continuation of the economic confrontation with the U.S., which was not a smart move on China's part, as overestimating its strength is the biggest mistake.
Then there was (and now the problem continues) Evergrande and in general the real estate market and related sectors of the economy....

And the day before yesterday the news came out: China is considering the option of withdrawing 2 trillion yuan ($278 billion) from offshore accounts of state-owned companies to save the record falling stock market. Bloomberg writes about it.
According to people familiar with the matter, Chinese authorities are considering a package of measures to stabilize the falling stock market after previous attempts to restore investor confidence failed and prompted Prime Minister Li Keqiang to call for "forceful" steps.

On the one hand, it seems to be the world's second economy, "the world's factory", nominally "the second pole of the bipolar world", on the other hand, it is no longer possible to hide the problems and it is necessary to take such measures.  The question is: since the situation with the Chinese economy is no longer manageable, and we have to take tough and prompt actions to save the economy - how do you think this will affect the global economy, the crypto market, and what to prepare for?

I don't think we should really prepare for anything other than an exodus of wealthy Chinese Citizens moving to different parts of the western world to save the worth of their assets from depreciating. Why? Because China's economy's become so excluded that when things like this happens the only ones that are really at a loss is them and nothing else. Retailers could pretty much just look for someplace else when choosing another country that would mass produce their products, builders would look in the Middle East particularly in Saudi Arabia as well as the UAE for more opportunities as China's real estate market collapses under its own weight. We shouldn't really be worried about much at this point in my opinion. I mean, they had it coming in the first place, and I don't really see anything to be prepared for.

[cabron]

It's no secret that after the Kovid pandemic, China's economy has been hit pretty hard. Further problems were a continuation of the economic confrontation with the U.S., which was not a smart move on China's part, as overestimating its strength is the biggest mistake.
Then there was (and now the problem continues) Evergrande and in general the real estate market and related sectors of the economy....

And the day before yesterday the news came out: China is considering the option of withdrawing 2 trillion yuan ($278 billion) from offshore accounts of state-owned companies to save the record falling stock market. Bloomberg writes about it.
According to people familiar with the matter, Chinese authorities are considering a package of measures to stabilize the falling stock market after previous attempts to restore investor confidence failed and prompted Prime Minister Li Keqiang to call for "forceful" steps.

On the one hand, it seems to be the world's second economy, "the world's factory", nominally "the second pole of the bipolar world", on the other hand, it is no longer possible to hide the problems and it is necessary to take such measures.  The question is: since the situation with the Chinese economy is no longer manageable, and we have to take tough and prompt actions to save the economy - how do you think this will affect the global economy, the crypto market, and what to prepare for?

I don't think we should really prepare for anything other than an exodus of wealthy Chinese Citizens moving to different parts of the western world to save the worth of their assets from depreciating. Why? Because China's economy's become so excluded that when things like this happens the only ones that are really at a loss is them and nothing else. Retailers could pretty much just look for someplace else when choosing another country that would mass produce their products, builders would look in the Middle East particularly in Saudi Arabia as well as the UAE for more opportunities as China's real estate market collapses under its own weight. We shouldn't really be worried about much at this point in my opinion. I mean, they had it coming in the first place, and I don't really see anything to be prepared for.

China has done business in every corner of the world than with US and more countries trade with China than with US.  Any country that doesn't trade with China is just isolating itself from the world. If you take a look at the economy of EU and US and compare it to China, you can see which one has the advantage. And this is why African countries are relying more on China's business and the Belt and Road. 

It's not working because even the Russian economy is growing which is far more isolated than China. So convincing the world to decouple with China is impossible.

[WillyAp]

China has done business in every corner of the world than with US and more countries trade with China than with US.  Any country that doesn't trade with China is just isolating itself from the world. If you take a look at the economy of EU and US and compare it to China, you can see which one has the advantage. And this is why African countries are relying more on China's business and the Belt and Road. 

It's not working because even the Russian economy is growing which is far more isolated than China. So convincing the world to decouple with China is impossible.

Yes people believe in extremes.

The amount per ton is less important than the actual number of countries you trade with over the years. If you trade with 100 countries for 30 years you will have more trade connections than a country with 5 years doubling your numbers:

https://imgur.com/a/tcuRuU9

https://se544.com/en/trade-marketing.html  in case the image gets lost.

[FelixH]

China is a time bomb. I hope they don't engage with Putin too much.

[Bobrox]

China's economy is very sick? where are data come from to said most bigger country and has stable financial condition get difficult with their economic. I think must realize how China government manipulated with many countries get loan from them and has bigger loan interested. In my country Indonesian, China become the bigger source as loan and they have feedback with our country must use their product when building construction of high-speed trains and the cost up to more than 100% than amount count before.
China government is very smart by looking the weakness countries and need their loan, if can't pay the loan interested they will get business and that country and many of the cooperation agreement is very profitable for China, starting from the materials used to the labor must come from China.

[tyz]

It's not working because even the Russian economy is growing which is far more isolated than China. So convincing the world to decouple with China is impossible.

It is true that the Russian economy is growing, but this is due to one-off effects, in particular the enormous investments in war and armaments. This is not sustainable and will fall on the feet of the Russians as soon as the situation changes. A lot of tech and other important foreign companies have left the country with the knowledge.

[DrBeer]

china (mainland) let evergrande(company) fail because evergrande incorporated in hong kong gov, not beijing gov.. so let hong kong litigate and decide on the bankruptcy.
evergrandes assets(land) was in mainland so hong kong had no rights to asset grab from mainland so had to let evergrande(company) sink
in short it was not the mainland gov responsibility to bail out the evergrande company as it never registered as a business of the mainland

however the land plot evergrande owned on the mainland the beijing(mainland gov) is actually dealing with those land plots. and doing deals to get the unfinished buildings on that land finished, without causing a real estate market crash

China Evergrande Group is a diversified Chinese investment holding company, the largest residential real estate operator in the southern province of Guangdong and one of the largest real estate operators in China (ranked among the country's twenty largest companies). Founded in 1996, formally registered in the Cayman Islands, the actual headquarters is located in Shenzhen.

We believe that the Cayman Islands is actually the problem ?

Well, you are an intelligent adult, let's not manipulate the place of "domicile" of a legal entity. You know very well that all the corporation's assets are Chinese projects. Or do you want to say that millions and millions of square meters of housing built by Evergrande in Hong Kong?
A huge number of subcontractors and manufacturers were involved in Evergrand projects. They also found themselves, if not on the verge of bankruptcy, then at least their financial turnovers fell tenfold.... I am used to telling the truth, even if it is not pleasant or even profitable for me. But it is the truth. Let's also speak the truth about the situation under discussion, even if it is not pleasant for someone!

"place of domicile" "caymen islands" i never even spoke those words..
read my quote that you quoted

I TOLD YOU that the millions and millions of square meters of housing was on MAINLAND
I TOLD YOU the evergrande business(not assets) was registered in hong kong(check the HK stock exchange listing)
YOU ARE manipulating things to pretend i am suggesting the housing was in hong kong

only you seem confused about the details.. but a 20 second google search could have cleared things up for you

also hong hong courts decided on the status of evergrande(business), and ordered them to close down the business and liquidate,
mainland courts had no jurisdiction over the business so let it fail, no bail out of the business as its not their problem

because evergrande registered with hong kong.. its on the HONG KONG stock market..(you can check it out yourself in a 10 second google search)
so the business was honk kong problem

hong kong do not have control to decide on what happens to the property on the mainland... china mainland have the authority to make decisions on the property because its on their land.

hong hong decide on the BUSINESS
mainland decide on the PROPERTY
get it yet

as for you thinking 'if a physical building called HQ is in state A thats where it domiciles," so that in your false belief view is "the state/province that courts/laws the company need to follow" you would be incorrect

many businesses across the world have physical offices in A.. and assets in B.. but register in C (all over the place)
the business is in control of C courts. the assets is in control of B court

the hong honk court ordered evergrande(business) to winde-down/liquidate/shutdown.. not cayman islands, not mainland china.. but hong kong cant take control of the property as the property is not hong kong based so the property is legally in the hands of chinese mainland courts/banks

so heres a plan for you
google: "hong kong evergrande"
and realise that it actually was hong kong court that litigated evergrandes demise.. not mainland
google: "evergrande assets mainland"
and realise that 90% of assets were on mainland which honk kong courts had no control over
its upto china mainland court and banks to decide how to sell off the property.

are you clear on the details now?
if not, dont hit reply just yet, instead: do the research and clear things up for your own sake.. then reply realising that court filings and registrations to stock exchanges and locations of property have more factual correlation to what i said rather than what you have insinuated
then we can move on with the debate..
.. moving on to things like:
china mainland dont want to cause their real estate market to crash by selling unfinished property at a discount.. so their plan is to sell the property at market rate as if its finished. but as a back-hander side deal give the investors/owners a gold brick as a form of 'cash-back"
this trick is done to show on official real estate market sales receipts that X square meter of property is still selling at healthy market rate. to avoid real estate market crashes

I'll put it down to my not very good command of the English language
I wanted to show that references to what the company is "attached" to are secondary, as for example the registration of this company at all in the Cayman Islands.
But the point does not change - the Evergrande problem is one of the triggers of the global crisis of the Chinese economy. Not Hong Kong, not the Cayman Islands. It's China. And it was China that tried to solve the crisis in the economy caused by Evergrande's insolvency. It was Evergrande, under a CHINA government program that built many millions of square meters of housing, on the scale of ghost towns, inflating the "bubble" of the non-movement market . Where am I wrong?

[franky1]

evergrande did over develop, under the mistake they thought that due to the 2then 3 child policy would(in their miscalculation) require a property boom in 2019-2022
(bad math and psychology of building too early before women had chance to grow up and choose to have multiple children)
however due to the delay of relaxing child policy vs de-indocrination of family planning, a baby boom is yet to happen meaning people wanting more space, new homes didnt happen..  so they did not get buyers of the completed housing of 2019-2020 phased housing so couldnt then fund the finishing of the phase 2 unfinished housing of 2021-2022 (note three red lines plus lack of baby boom)

china mainland could do nothing to bail out evergrande and seen no reason to due to evergrande being honk hong traded thus a hong hong problem.. the assets were locked into evergrande and evergrande was still trading and operating until january 28th of 2024
when the hong kong courts ordered evergrande to liquidate

yep one month ago it now becomes something china mainland can start dealing with, china mainland took over 90% of evergrande assets(property on mainland) and is now doing deals or demolishing to sort out the real estate market

emphasis previous to january 2024
the property, the company and its listing on stock market was not a china mainland problem nor causing china mainland any treasury issues
china mainland actually in 2020 forsore the possible problem and actually prevented developers from borrowing too much, to attempt t quash rapid expansion

china mainland knew before january that it will become something they would need to get involved with and they planned for it
namely find people to buy the properties to then snowball progressing the finishing of the unfinished properties.. or just demolish the properties at only a cost of a wrecking ball and dynamite

now lets again explain the china mainland plan.. (i mentioned it to you in different topics, but lets summarise here)

china mainland now own alot of properties. more properties then population demands in next few years.. it cost mainland government nothing to get this property.. so no crisis yet for mainland china

anyway, the plan
china mainland plan is to demolish some phase two housing(just the cost of some dynamite and wrecking ball crews)
but majority they want to sell

so, now lets imagine the average 'comps' (sell rate) was $250k for similar finished property
for the properties that are finished but not demanded. they do not want to discount it to say $175k to drive demand. as that would the ripple effect on the whole real estate market of devaluing other property prices by making cops show as $175k

so instead they want to keep property prices at $250k to keep the real estate market healthy.. and instead when a buyer is willing to buy at $250k, that buyer gets a $75k gold brick thank you.. (like a cashback deal) thus everyone is happy and the comps stay healthy
chinese government then have $175k free and clear to then roll-over to fund the completion of the phase two house(unfinished) and do the same again, once complete offer a gold brick to buyers buying for $250k .. thus chinese mainland government get $175k per phase two housing free and clear once everything balances out. which they can then utilise or pay over to evergrande investors

the only crises so far in the evergrande saga
is those that invested early on under the pre-tense of evergrandes 5 year plan producing greedy profits for investors.. those investors are out of pocket.

[suzanne5223]

I would love to see Chinese government burn down to the ground.

Ok. Assuming the Chinese government burns down to the ground. What will be your benefit?
I think it is time we set aside all the religious, ethnic, and political naiveness and make the world a better place rather than looking for the downfall of others which is not the way to go.

We need to stop sending them our business, they are massive polluters and desamate the oceans.

I don't why you said they are a massive polluter. I know the Chinese to be cultural people but no one is innocent and people can do the wrong thing when they are newbies and lack the perfect understanding of things. If they are educated things will change.

[franky1]

pollution per citizen actually shows the US is worse

plants love warmth and carbon, they will take care of itself
there not even 50 years of fossil reserves left. the fossil fuel problem will sort itself out before 2070

all this talk if needing international funding/relief for "climate" is just old institutional energy companies not wanting to use their own profits to upgrade and sustain their business, so want the world to pay for the transition to renewables while they carry on taking their profits

and yes even if carbon was say laughing gas that made everyone happy with no ill effects, energy companies would still need to covert to renewables within 50 years anyway, and they would still want someone else paying the bill, not themselves

..
side note about pollution
there was more smog/pollution in queen victoria's era of england than there was in queen elizabeth 2nd and now in King charles england
in victorian england the streets were also literally littered with all types of waste

as for plastics.
plastics take hundreds of years to decompose. meaning hundreds of years to decompose so not going to toxify land for millenia
as for plastics that are chewed up by sea animals.. because yes animals do chew on hard things touse as grinders in the gut to aid food digestions so yes they chew and crunch down on plastics that then form microplastics in sea animals which fish eater then ingest
yea. we need to stop it getting in the sea.

which yes, india and china are the top contributors to plastics ending up in the sea, so does need addressing

(hope you enjoy that update about pollution)