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Author Topic: In order for bitcoin to appeal to the masses, there needs to be a 3rd party  (Read 1715 times)
amspir
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March 30, 2014, 01:17:27 AM
 #21

This whole thread is like complaining back in the days of the gold standard that no one would use dollars because no one wants to have to live in Fort Knox and scratch  their name on which bars in Fort Knox are theirs and make sure no one scratches their name off a bar and replaces it with their own name.

Actually it's much worse than that.  Before 1933, every US dollar had the promise that the central government would redeem the dollar in gold upon demand.   After 1933, the government reneged on that promise, and confiscated every US-minted gold coin that it could.

Allow the bank to have possession of your bitcoin, if that makes you feel safer.   I feel more comfortable being the sole possessor of my bitcoin's private keys.
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March 30, 2014, 02:15:37 AM
 #22

This whole thread is like complaining back in the days of the gold standard that no one would use dollars because no one wants to have to live in Fort Knox and scratch  their name on which bars in Fort Knox are theirs and make sure no one scratches their name off a bar and replaces it with their own name.

Actually it's much worse than that.  Before 1933, every US dollar had the promise that the central government would redeem the dollar in gold upon demand.   After 1933, the government reneged on that promise, and confiscated every US-minted gold coin that it could.

Allow the bank to have possession of your bitcoin, if that makes you feel safer.   I feel more comfortable being the sole possessor of my bitcoin's private keys.


Yes the word "Dollar" used to literally mean a certain small amount of gold.

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March 30, 2014, 02:50:04 AM
 #23

Here's the issue with bitcoin.

No chargebacks, and you need to store/protect your private keys.

That's a BAD thing.

I don't think you get bitcoin.   There are solutions for chargebacks by using escrow.   However, bitcoin is very similar to cash.  With cash, you must physically protect it against theft.   With bitcoin, you must prevent your private keys from be stolen.   Most of my BTC is on paper wallets (with no possible online access to the private keys) that reside in my safe, along side my cash.

If you don't trust yourself to insure the protection of your private keys, then using a bank might be your solution.   Ask bank account holders in Cyprus, or gold holders in the United States that kept gold in safety deposit boxes during the US gold seizure of 1933, if that method is the most secure.



Escrow = Trusted 3rd party.

With cash, it must be protected against theft, but that's the bank's responsibility, not the end user's.

OP you should really consider the differences between the two systems.

The only reason charge backs are necessary with legacy financial systems is that your money can be authorized by someone other than yourself. Somebody can hack into a merchant database (Target) and gain access to your card information. From your card information they can access your name, address, phone number; then other private information becomes easily accessible from the information stored within the credit system, social security number, identity as a whole. That person can use those numbers to buy whatever they want in your name.

Charge backs do nothing to deter crime; they hurt everybody else involved. Charge backs can bankrupt a small business, lay off the employees, cause a tremendous amount of collateral damage. The only person unaffected in a charge back is the criminal.

With Bitcoin that is not the case. Nobody can spend your coins, your public address is encrypted to where it can't be used to identify your private address. Unless you give somebody the private address to your bitcoin wallet and your password they won't get your coins.

If somebody installs a key logger on your computer they have access to everything you do on your computer. Your bank accounts, email, social networking, identity, etc... It takes more than a key logger to steal your Bitcoins; they will also need to steal your wallet file from your computer.

When a merchant doesn't deliver the product you paid for you have a legal recourse, the criminal (merchant) is affected, and the criminal is punished. Why do you need a charge back with Bitcoin where nobody else can spend your money for you?

Someone hacking into a merchant database does NOT get info in the credit system, like SSN. All they can get is the info you provide to the merchant. Name, Address, information about that specific card (which can be cancelled and reissued). Chargebacks are for more then reversing unauthorized transactions. I've done chargebacks because I was unhappy with the way a merchant handled something, and no longer wanted to deal with the merchant. And if a merchant doesn't deliver, with bitcoin you have to go to court to sue them to get your money back. With a credit card or bank payment, it's a 5 minute phone call to get your money back. Good luck suing someone for a few hundred bucks.

Taking responsibility is so haard.

Yeah, you have to take responsibility and get nothing in return. That sounds stupid to me.

You get plenty in return. Just because you don't care about those benefits does not mean they do not exist.

Ok, so if you're buying physical goods from an online merchant, what benefit exactly do you get by paying with bitcoin over a credit card?

I don't hold the opinion that Bitcoin's best use case is as a daily spending currency.

But, since you asked, there are a few.

In order to get a merchant to accept a credit card, you must provide all the information required to actually use the credit card (billing address, name, credit card number, expiration date and card security code). Bitcoin is much more secure, you don't need to provide any information in order to make a payment.

Bitcoin is like cash. Merchants can offer a discount for payments with Bitcoin since they don't have to pay a processing fee or worry about charge backs.

I don't need to pass a credit check to obtains bitcoins. I need to pass a credit check to obtain a credit card.

Credit card companies can block payments at their discretion. No one can block a bitcoin payment.

Ok...

Name and billing address (assuming you live at your billing address, most people do) you have to give the merchant regardless if you want to receive what you paid for. The card information has zero security implications. If that gets stolen you have exactly zero liability as a result. (The time I lost my card -- totally my fault btw, I didn't bother to report it stolen until a week later -- it took me 5 minutes on the phone before all the txes were reversed and a new card was on it's way).

Merchants can offer a discount. True, but currently the big ones that I'm aware of charge the same amount in btc. Also, offering different prices for credit card users vs other payment method users often violates the terms of the merchant account with the credit card company, and they're subject to have that terminated. Merchants giving up all their credit card business to give btc users a discount? Doubtful. I don't know if you remembered, but gas stations had to go through a huge fight to be able to charge cash and credit users different prices.

Credit check. Valid point. Not everyone can get a credit card. Debit cards offer the same protection as credit cards though and only the lowliest of the low can't get a bank account.

Credit card companies CAN indeed block payments at their discretion. But the majority of those cases are when something illegal is involved. In this case, I would agree, bitcoin is a great currency when dealing with anything illegal, and is far superior to anything cash based in any way. But for legitimate uses? I don't see the incentive for the consumer to choose bitcoin.

Bitcoin is great for online gambling, buying drugs, laundering money, or payment for other illegal products/services.
You're right, there must be a reputable third party.

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March 30, 2014, 03:59:54 AM
 #24

Here's the issue with bitcoin.

No chargebacks, and you need to store/protect your private keys.

That's a BAD thing.

When I buy things online, I buy with a credit card. I don't have to do any research into whether a merchant is reputable or not. If it doesn't show up or is not as advertised, I make a phone call and get my money back. I don't have to worry about protecting my information, because if it's stolen, I make a phone call, get my money back, and get a new card issued.

For fiat, it by itself has no protection, but banks, a trusted 3rd party, and the FDIC protect it. If your bank account is hacked, you get your money back. If there's fraud of some kind involved, you get your money back. If your bank goes bankrupt, the FDIC covers up to 250K of it, which is sufficient protection for most people.

In order for bitcoin to appeal to the masses, there needs to be a trusted 3rd party who can offer a payment solution that includes dispute resolution and chargebacks, 100% protection for your account being hacked, basically removing any kind of responsibility or liability from the end user. And I'm not talking about a "trusted" 3rd party like coinbase, or bitstamp. The service would have to be offered by an organization like bank of america.

To the average person, there's no appeal of bitcoin. It puts the onus on YOU to protect your money and making sure the merchant is reliable. I've lost one of my credit cards while on vacation, didn't even worry about it till I got back. If that were bitcoin then I'd be panicking about losing a ton of money if I didn't resolve it immediately.

Well, skooter, don't buy any bitcoins and feel free to sell me any you have.
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March 30, 2014, 05:09:40 AM
 #25

This is a non-issue, since people who want hand-holding companies to hold their hands for them will use credit cards or debit cards or similar off-blockchain transaction processing services, they will not deal directly with bitcoins. If they chose to have accounts denominated in bitcoins with such services those services will deal with the blockchain, or maybe even they will act at a degree of remove such as by dealing with ETFs or somesuch.

This whole thread is like complaining back in the days of the gold standard that no one would use dollars because no one wants to have to live in Fort Knox and scratch  their name on which bars in Fort Knox are theirs and make sure no one scratches their name off a bar and replaces it with their own name.

-MarkM-


+1

Bitcoin will evolve to be the best of both worlds.  If you want escrow and reversibility, use a third-party like the bitcoin-equivalent of Visa.  If you want to deal with bitcoins directly, then you are free to do so. 



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March 30, 2014, 10:15:33 AM
 #26

This is a non-issue, since people who want hand-holding companies to hold their hands for them will use credit cards or debit cards or similar off-blockchain transaction processing services, they will not deal directly with bitcoins. If they chose to have accounts denominated in bitcoins with such services those services will deal with the blockchain, or maybe even they will act at a degree of remove such as by dealing with ETFs or somesuch.

+1000

People keep confusing money media with payment processing services. The two things have nothing to do with each other except that one is used to denominate the other.

Visa, Mastercard et al will be needed more than ever in a Bitcoin economy. They already deal in a myriad of currencies. (Don't get excited - not Myriad coin but a Myriad of Fiat). At the moment you can charge your credit card in one currency and do transactions in any other when you to other countries or buy on the internet.

When you go to the supermarket, the point of sale cash tills will NOT be doing blockchain transactions. That would be a nightmare. They will work like the Cryptocurrency exchanges do right now - using accounts where the trades go through instantly. That also allows for all the meta services that payment processors provide - transaction insurance, refunds, discounts, store card support etc.

What happens when the supermarket checkout person accidentally rings through next customer's cornflakes on your bill ? They need to be able to quickly refund you the difference and re-charge to the next guy. Can you imagine doing that on the blockchain ? Forget it.

Payment processors provide an important service to the banking system - whether it be fiat or crypto - bu buffering the transactions and supporting front line point of sale. This will continue to be the case with Auroracoin.


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March 30, 2014, 12:23:14 PM
 #27

Maybe third party services will be useful in future, but that time certainly isn't now.  There are already plenty of third party services at the moment that claim they'll look after your coins for you.  And look how absolutely fucking useless most of them have turned out to be.  If anything, all the third parties that have made the headlines so far have done the opposite of appealing to the masses.


Third party service:  "We'll look after your coins for you.  Oh wait, no, we lost them.  Sorry, no refunds."

General public:  "Ugh, Bitcoin isn't safe, so I'm not putting my money into that."

Us on the forum:  "Well actually, Bitcoin is safe, but only if you don't do stupid things with it like giving it away to someone you've never met on the assumption you can trust them to give it back.



If cash was a brand new invention just made available to the public today, it's almost certain that people would be doing silly things with it and losing their money.  But we can limit that damage if we make sure people understand the differences between digital money and regular money.

I know this thread isn't a call for central regulation, but it comes under the same mindset.  People who ask for Bitcoin to be centrally regulated are generally considered to have misunderstood the fundamental concept of the Bitcoin network. Bitcoin is decentralised by design, as this guarantees it being neutral, incorruptible and secure.  Likewise, people who feel the need to trust someone else to look after their money for them are also missing the point.  

As others have said, there may be a time in future where third parties can actually be trusted, or indeed that we might even rely on them, so they are almost right in saying that this won't be an issue.  It won't be an issue in future once there are some reputable third parties involved, but I don't think that time is going to happen for a long while.  For now, it would be irresponsible of us to tell new users that they should allow others to keep hold of their money.  Our best hope is to educate new users properly and try to stop them getting screwed over.

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