Can gambling sites provide proof of auditing that was done on their RTP?

[Wapfika]

Based on what I've read, these online gambling sites are subject to regulations and license requirements that compel them to undergo regular audits by independent third-party testing agencies. These audits are conducted to verify that the games' RNG is fair and that the stated RTP is accurate. But the big question is, is it enforced and thoroughly reviewed by the regulatory authorities?

What is the difference between provably fair and RTP? It seems like there isn't much difference because winning or losing still ultimately depends on luck. So, if you keep playing in the long run, losses are likely to be inevitable.

I don't think you can test provably fair on a slot machine. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong as I am actually curious of this myself.

This is true. There’s no way to test the probably fair system of slot games since they are all close source that’s why we are relying here on trust that provider is following the standards after the audit done to them since everything is online now.

Being close source of most 3rd party game provider is still a mystery since some says it’s to protect their games against exploit but some says to hide what they are doing from behind. No one knows exactly what’s true here. Online gambling is based on trust built over their length of service without any issue.

[Fivestar4everMVP]

Based on what I've read, these online gambling sites are subject to regulations and license requirements that compel them to undergo regular audits by independent third-party testing agencies. These audits are conducted to verify that the games' RNG is fair and that the stated RTP is accurate. But the big question is, is it enforced and thoroughly reviewed by the regulatory authorities?

What is the difference between provably fair and RTP? It seems like there isn't much difference because winning or losing still ultimately depends on luck. So, if you keep playing in the long run, losses are likely to be inevitable.

I don't think you can test provably fair on a slot machine. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong as I am actually curious of this myself.

This is true. There’s no way to test the probably fair system of slot games since they are all close source that’s why we are relying here on trust that provider is following the standards after the audit done to them since everything is online now.

I think you are wrong, there is actually a way to test or audit a slot machine since they are a programmed computer game, by the term "programmed computer game", I mean that, those machines are running a slot game software, and they can be infected, same way a windows program  on your computer, or an android program can be infected with a virus or malware, the slot program installed on the slot machine can be tested and or audited to make sure that the RTP the machine displays is the actual RTP in the software the machine is running, since things like this can be manipulated through the machine's internal or physical settings.

I can give you an example of the woman who they said won over $400,000 while playing slot on a slot machine, and after the casino investigated the win, they told her she did not win, that what was displayed on the slot machine as her winning was due to a malfunction in the machine which affected the game software.
How was the casino able to discover this if not that they ran an audit on the woman's game history on that machine...?

[Coin_trader]

This question is best fit for casino owners, I wish we have some of them on here to answer this question right now.

We have someone here that operates an online casino. He is still very active here and actually answer this kind of question frequently on his AMA thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5482508.msg63538590#msg63538590. He is the only user here I know that is qualified to give right answer on this question since most of our opinions here is just speculation because we don’t work in the casino.


@SirJohnVonSlotty sir, I’m not sure if this question is already asked on your AMA thread but this topic is popular to ask here while always doesn’t received deserve answer. Can you help us here for your insights to this topic. We really appreciate your knowledge on this field.

[SirJohnVonSlotty]

This means that, on average, for every $100 wagered, the player can expect to receive $95 back in winnings over time.

AI told you some garbage there.

Slot machines are here for entertainment and the thrill of a big win, which does happen, but they are not here to make money for the player.

The most common RTP in the online industry hovers around 96%, in the offline industry it can go as much down as 80%, but offline businesses that go that aggressive rarely deal with regulars, while we in online deal with regular players and want that they stay with us longer, so we have higher RTP's. That doesn't mean that you, specifically you, will get 96% back out of $100 gambled. No, this means that the game, on an average (a huge average) is giving out 96% back, but in most cases you don't see it because it comes back in increments. Someone might have a zero RTP, someone else a jackpot. It's a theoretical average. The point is to entertain you as long as possible for those $100, and the slot machine will be taking and giving as you continue to play. You might win, but let's assume you'll not.

And although the games have to be ISO/IEC 17025 compliant, if the casino is using a slots provider (e.g. Bgaming) then they can't change the RTP, it's baked into the game and managed by Bgaming, not the casino. So the Auditing part would go to Bgaming, which is a Malta Gaming Authority audited brand, so basically MGA is doing the Audit on them.

If the casino is using their own games, there's more room for scams, so check if they are "provably fair" (no, it's not a typo). However, I would never recommend to play on a non-licensed casino.

[komisariatku]

This means that, on average, for every $100 wagered, the player can expect to receive $95 back in winnings over time.

AI told you some garbage there.

Slot machines are here for entertainment and the thrill of a big win, which does happen, but they are not here to make money for the player.

The most common RTP in the online industry hovers around 96%, in the offline industry it can go as much down as 80%, but offline businesses that go that aggressive rarely deal with regulars, while we in online deal with regular players and want that they stay with us longer, so we have higher RTP's. That doesn't mean that you, specifically you, will get 96% back out of $100 gambled. No, this means that the game, on an average (a huge average) is giving out 96% back, but in most cases you don't see it because it comes back in increments. Someone might have a zero RTP, someone else a jackpot. It's a theoretical average. The point is to entertain you as long as possible for those $100, and the slot machine will be taking and giving as you continue to play. You might win, but let's assume you'll not.

And although the games have to be ISO/IEC 17025 compliant, if the casino is using a slots provider (e.g. Bgaming) then they can't change the RTP, it's baked into the game and managed by Bgaming, not the casino. So the Auditing part would go to Bgaming, which is a Malta Gaming Authority audited brand, so basically MGA is doing the Audit on them.

If the casino is using their own games, there's more room for scams, so check if they are "provably fair" (no, it's not a typo). However, I would never recommend to play on a non-licensed casino.

Thank you for your great answer

I want to ask, if the RTP is determined by the provider and not the casino, why is there usually a slight difference in RTP between one casino and another? usually the difference is not much but there is a slight difference.

Additionally, if I play on the same slot machine at a different casino, will the provider know? For example, I played Gates of Olympus on Shuffle and won, because I had won, I moved to another casino and played the Gates of Olympus slot machine again, does PP know that it was me? because they must have recorded my IP

[AbuBhakar]

I want to ask, if the RTP is determined by the provider and not the casino, why is there usually a slight difference in RTP between one casino and another? usually the difference is not much but there is a slight difference.

Some game provider allows few modifications on the RTP based on the casino preferences but game provider is the one that changing the RTP and not casino since game provider has the full control on the games. Casino just added it on their website so that players can play it.

Additionally, if I play on the same slot machine at a different casino, will the provider know? For example, I played Gates of Olympus on Shuffle and won, because I had won, I moved to another casino and played the Gates of Olympus slot machine again, does PP know that it was me? because they must have recorded my IP

I think so but I’m not sure. Some provider like PP have a tournament for all the players playing their games in different casino. I think they are just like evolution gaming that tracks all the players playing their games even in different casino.

[komisariatku]

Additionally, if I play on the same slot machine at a different casino, will the provider know? For example, I played Gates of Olympus on Shuffle and won, because I had won, I moved to another casino and played the Gates of Olympus slot machine again, does PP know that it was me? because they must have recorded my IP

I think so but I’m not sure. Some provider like PP have a tournament for all the players playing their games in different casino. I think they are just like evolution gaming that tracks all the players playing their games even in different casino.

Yes, I think so too. Because I have experienced it, when I won at one casino and played the same slot machine at another casino, it seemed as if my luck had run out and it was very difficult to win, I was only able to get a small win when playing a slot machine from a different provider

Have you ever felt something like that? Maybe my guess is right because the provider can find out our IP so they know that we are the ones playing even though we use different online casinos, it looks like I have to change providers when I win at one of the slot machine providers

[paxmao]

Based on what I've read, these online gambling sites are subject to regulations and license requirements that compel them to undergo regular audits by independent third-party testing agencies. These audits are conducted to verify that the games' RNG is fair and that the stated RTP is accurate. But the big question is, is it enforced and thoroughly reviewed by the regulatory authorities?

What is the difference between provably fair and RTP? It seems like there isn't much difference because winning or losing still ultimately depends on luck. So, if you keep playing in the long run, losses are likely to be inevitable.

I don't think you can test provably fair on a slot machine. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong as I am actually curious of this myself.

This is true. There’s no way to test the probably fair system of slot games since they are all close source that’s why we are relying here on trust that provider is following the standards after the audit done to them since everything is online now.

Being close source of most 3rd party game provider is still a mystery since some says it’s to protect their games against exploit but some says to hide what they are doing from behind. No one knows exactly what’s true here. Online gambling is based on trust built over their length of service without any issue.

There is not better proof than the test of times. Most people using crypto exchanges can speak a lot about darwinism in that sense, that is creating rep by simply not being hacked, allowing withdrawals and treating users fairly including the odds, etc... However there is good opportunity for sites that have still to make their way into the market by promoting a certification.

[Dunamisx]

As long as a gambling casino is licensed, then they should have information for their Return to Player audit, mostly this has to deal with the gambling platforms and the regulatory authorities or government as the case may be, what do someone like me, an average gambler needed that for, will they even allow me to see such, all these would have been well spelt out under their casino ToS if we had gone through them.

[Findingnemo]

This means that, on average, for every $100 wagered, the player can expect to receive $95 back in winnings over time.

AI told you some garbage there.

Slot machines are here for entertainment and the thrill of a big win, which does happen, but they are not here to make money for the player.

The most common RTP in the online industry hovers around 96%, in the offline industry it can go as much down as 80%, but offline businesses that go that aggressive rarely deal with regulars, while we in online deal with regular players and want that they stay with us longer, so we have higher RTP's. That doesn't mean that you, specifically you, will get 96% back out of $100 gambled. No, this means that the game, on an average (a huge average) is giving out 96% back, but in most cases you don't see it because it comes back in increments. Someone might have a zero RTP, someone else a jackpot. It's a theoretical average. The point is to entertain you as long as possible for those $100, and the slot machine will be taking and giving as you continue to play. You might win, but let's assume you'll not.

And although the games have to be ISO/IEC 17025 compliant, if the casino is using a slots provider (e.g. Bgaming) then they can't change the RTP, it's baked into the game and managed by Bgaming, not the casino. So the Auditing part would go to Bgaming, which is a Malta Gaming Authority audited brand, so basically MGA is doing the Audit on them.

If the casino is using their own games, there's more room for scams, so check if they are "provably fair" (no, it's not a typo). However, I would never recommend to play on a non-licensed casino.

This is what I thought as well, RTP is nothing but the average value of return that someone can get which doesn't mean that everyone who gambles will get as much as returns as mentioned in the RTP value because we never know which is the bet that is going to give us the win and that's why longer the betting streak the chances of winning is high.

However I just want to know is it mandatory to prove the provided RTP of in house games of casino to the players or its just for the documentation of regulators?

[ryzaadit]

Either you trust them or play other games.

The things we can do just trust the provider, the RTP is correct based of (RNG). If you on (Landbase) CASINO especially on (VEGAS) they even have the worst RTP, just about 60% and people still play that shit up.

Spin with over 50, 100, 500, or 1000$ / spin and just win around 10-30x (they are excited ~LOL) + The Jackpot Notify came out with just 10-30x from their bet size. Take these as leason, no one can verified and all machine program will be always profitable to the house. Now, you are now better to play (card games) while have a better odds to the player like (BJ 2-3 Deck, Sportbook or Pokers).

[serjent05]

I once chased losses and played one slot machine continuously, but I didn't get good results, all I got were more and more losses. So I don't really care about RTP, and in my opinion there is no guarantee about RTP, this happens when we play a slot machine that we have never played before and it turns out we can get a big win. Or maybe the RTP is random and doesn't always come back to us, but winnings can also be given to other users?

RTP is supposed to be for the long term, if you experience losses for a long time, just hold on your horses, you might get a surprise one day when the RTP kicks in.  Experiencing RTP is not like, if I wager $100 today I must receive $95 dollars today, as stated it is a return of money to the player over a long period of time. 

What does (RTP) Return to player mean?
You may be wondering, “what is return to player, and what does it mean?” Well, the RTP casino meaning represents the average amount of money that online slots or casino games pay back (or return) to the player over a long period of time. Displayed as a percentage, the casino RTP meaning is the opposite of the house edge, which symbolizes the mathematical advantage of a casino game.

As long as a gambling casino is licensed, then they should have information for their Return to Player audit, mostly this has to deal with the gambling platforms and the regulatory authorities or government as the case may be, what do someone like me, an average gambler needed that for, will they even allow me to see such, all these would have been well spelt out under their casino ToS if we had gone through them.

True that, auditing is one of the processes enforced by the various licensing authorities in order for the casino to get its license to operate according to this article: https://medium.com/@hirer42047/the-importance-of-auditing-with-online-casinos-a77b6aa4983c

Reputable internet casinos have their games audited by independent, third-party auditing organizations to ensure fairness to players. Auditing is a requirement enforced by the various licensing authorities and is also done to show players their business is fair and reliable.

[LUCKMCFLY]

Well, the topic is interesting in itself, or I know if the casinos can give them if they are asked for these discounts, in fact there is always an associated number of the RTP for the slots, and it is something that we see and sometimes they show next to each slot , for me it is interesting because basically things can be transformed for good, and not for something that is seen as bad, for me it is interesting because I have not seen much information about this, in fact it would be very nice if caisnos could have this type of reports.

The AI understands a lot, and gives simple examples so that anyone can understand it, based on this in casino reviews, or reviewers should request this type of data that turns out to be very good, to compare, which All the casinos that do not have this type of reports are something by which they can be evaluated, not to judge them, but at least to have it as a guide to know which casinos we have the best chance of winning.

As active players, if I would like to review this type of data, also as a measure of associated curiosity, this is sure that the casinos that will have the highest RTP will be bitcasino.io, stake.com, because they are the most popular casinos and that everyone They want to enter and try their luck, of course rollbit, duelbits, roobet too.

[tread93]

So, I know these audits are done on "brick n mortar" casinos, but what about the online gambling sites?

If these audits are done on online gambling sites, why are this not published online for transparency? It does not even have to be detailed reports, just a summary report of their findings.

I would venture to say that for the Brick N mortar casinos they are regulated with much more scrutiny but the online casinos are probably a lot more loose, proabably letting things slide or not double checking everything as much probably due to lack of regulations. There are so many small casinos now, I think that something like chip mixers are more on the radar but online gambling casinos even crypto ones are probably more so overlooked compared to something like that.

[SirJohnVonSlotty]

I would venture to say that for the Brick N mortar casinos they are regulated with much more scrutiny but the online casinos are probably a lot more loose, proabably letting things slide or not double checking everything as much probably due to lack of regulations.

This is not true. This is so not true.

Offline casinos have much more leeway for offering a scammy experience.

I would rather play on an online live poker table like Pokerstars where I know that everything is regulated and managed properly, than in an offline casino where you know that the dealer can do random stuff. 
I would rather play on a 96% RTP slot machine in an online casino, than on a god-knows-how-much RTP in an offline casino, just go to Vegas and ask them for the RTP on a slot, you will hear numbers hovering around 77%.
Also, I would rather play long-term on an online casino and establish a relationship with my VIP manager and get perks, bonuses and what nots, instead of having that ghostly feeling of being just one out of many within a regular offline casino.

[Bushdark]

To be honest I never know if there an audit for RTP and yes people usually choose a game with high RTP ratio but you are kinda right maybe we need an RTP audit hahaha, but I saw a lot of people win big 90% RTP sometimes the gambling site post a leaderboard should we still need a audit rtp in your opionion

There are many casino that would be er disclose that to the public, although this is one of the reasons why we need to keep doing research on casinos ww intended to use and keep gambling. Many of these information are not that available for users and we need to be wise and be conscious of manipulative casino that are always ready to mislead users just to keep getting frequent traffic if new users to there casino. This might not be necessary to some person but I what ever way it is, we need concentrate and look for a good casino to use.

[bitbollo]

in Italy our local agency can perform audits and inspections both on their offices (AAMS) both with vendors (like local bookmakers).
all games here have an audit trail (you get a code at start of game). however I don't know if this can really help players or change something in case there are "smart" operatos.

[Saint-loup]

That's a good proposal indeed. If casinos or third partry slot providers would provide links toward reports from certifying companies, users would be less reluctant and more confident to play not provably fair games, so it could be a good thing for both sides at the end: casinos and players. Because it would certainly attract new categories of players, more suspicious players for example.

[khaled0111]

I don't think you can test provably fair on a slot machine. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong as I am actually curious of this myself.

This is true. There’s no way to test the probably fair system of slot games since they are all close source that’s why we are relying here on trust that provider is following the standards after the audit done to them since everything is online now.

This is not correct. If you can't verify the fairness of a game by your own then you can't call it "provably fair in first place.
Moreover, being provably fair has nothing to do with being closed source or not. Actually, most pf games are closed source.

The only problem with pf algorithms used in slots is that they are a bit more complicated and harder to verify than those used in more simple games such as dice or roulette.

@yahoo, here is an article explaining in details how the pf algorithm for BGaming slots works and how to verify that it's indeed fair:
https://bgaming.com/provably-fair

[o48o]

I will say with all honesty that this is really an interesting question, as personally, I've never for once thought about the possibility and importance of auditing a game software to ensure that it's up to the standard the casino are advertising the game to be.
But unfortunately, this is not a question gamblers can answer, just as money here have said, there is no way we can know if online casinos actually go through such audit on their games software before launching such game to the public, because so far, no online casino have ever spoken concerning this, neither has any ever made such data available to their customers and prospective customers as well.

This is something I will suggest we all return back to our favorite casinos and ask them if their game software are audited, as a way to prove that the games are as fair as they should be, and just as they claim, casinos that refuse to answer or provide the audit data possibly have something they are hiding.

We know they do that that because they are required to have auditing from third party auditors by law. It's happening frequently and constantly because one test doesn't cut it.
And i wonder what kind of proof is OP looking for. Pure data about testing or what? I am sure most people wouldn't even make sense any data analysis of an auditor. But anyone can probably ask if those auditors have time to answer questions, or about their methods.

Pragmatic Play’s games are regularly reviewed by independent bodies that are formally accredited to ensure both randomness and fairness. As such, our games are Random Number Generator tested and certified by Gaming Laboratories International, Quinel and Gaming Associates this is also a prerequisite for all markets in which we operate.

Imagine risking a billion dollar industry by using fake audits. There's no reasonable explanation for that, especially when the biggest asset of any casino is trustworthiness and transparency.
Mathematical proof of slight house edge is the only thing they need to profit.