Runes are now worthless and have killed Ordinals too

[Lucius]

I hope I'm wrong about this, but something tells me it won't be long before the next incarnation of snake-oil is being hyped up by sleazy little grifters.  Fewer people seem to fall for it each time now, which is a positive, but the parasitic leeches seem determined to sell crap to gullible idiots.  I doubt this is the end.  They'll just come up with a new disguise for the same, old, worthless shit.

Of course, there will be a new thing, I doubt we won't have one in a few months, just give them time to unload completely this crap to users so they don't end up with unsold merchandise and they will invent the new big thing, if jpg monkeys sold that well what wound't sell?

That saying "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" is obviously not valid in the world of cryptocurrencies, and there is a high probability that we will see the next ordinal stupidity as soon as investors forget how "smart" they were with their investments the first two times. I hope that the developers will do something before that - let the children play in the playground, not in the place for adults.

[philipma1957]

I hope I'm wrong about this, but something tells me it won't be long before the next incarnation of snake-oil is being hyped up by sleazy little grifters.  Fewer people seem to fall for it each time now, which is a positive, but the parasitic leeches seem determined to sell crap to gullible idiots.  I doubt this is the end.  They'll just come up with a new disguise for the same, old, worthless shit.

Of course, there will be a new thing, I doubt we won't have one in a few months, just give them time to unload completely this crap to users so they don't end up with unsold merchandise and they will invent the new big thing, if jpg monkeys sold that well what wound't sell?

If there are no urban legends about how someone got rich minting Runes, there is a high probability that they will stop there.
An obvious example was Dogecoin, where many people got rich from nothing, and later we would have a flood of meme tokens for almost every breed of dog. If there isn't much talk of big money on the tokenization of the Bitcoin network, that trend could end up in history.

the scrypt algo of ltc and doge is very profitable for mining and has been this way for almost 7 years in a row.

even pull away the false boost doge to  had 70 cents and you can still see that doge does well for mining.

[Casdinyard]

Runes are one of the most hilarious* economic systems ever created, after perhaps BRC-20.

1. Someone creates a token with a specific name.
2. Other people can create their own units of these tokens. There is a limit, but usually it's not very low.
3. Then all try to sell their tokens, thinking there will be someone collecting them, either because of the "creative" name, or because it was created on a specific date (e.g. Halving Day).
4. Rinse and repeat (protocol is open, everybody can participate in each step).

Basically it's like "you can create your own money! and you will be rich if you do that!" Are you really willing to waste thousands of dollars of transaction fees for that?

Technically Runes is not much more advanced than Omni/Mastercoin which was created in 2013. More than ten years ago!


If you think Halving Day is special to create your own Rune, think again:

During the halving day, 144 blocks approximately will be created. Each block normally has 1000-3000 transactions. 74% of them currenty are Runes according to this dashboard.
This means probably more than 200.000 Runes will be created today.
Now try to sell them all. Order books will be thick, but only on the ask side


*not in a positive way

Sentimentality never had its place in this industry, and everytime someone tries to bank on this concept they fail horribly.

Ordinals tried it with their Inscriptions, NFTs tried it, only thing that really stuck around is the ethereum name service but only because it serves a purpose higher than its sentimental value. Runes are no different from the its predecessors, and it's no surprise it's fucking up quite royally nowadays. Projects like these is what further drives the agenda of Real World-Backed Assets and why I think it's going to become the next biggest narrative in this bull season.

The fact alone that these clowns think we're schmucks who would flock upon the next snake oil is just a massive insult to me, and I'm quite glad people are becoming more and more skeptical when it comes to these things, degens and ape-ing on a coin is still going to be a thing, but for the rest of us who want more out of the coin that we invested upon, RWA is going to be the answer.

[DaveF]

...Sentimentality never had its place in this industry, and everytime someone tries to bank on this concept they fail horribly....

Sentimentality has never had a place in ANY industry. Period. Full Stop.

You can make some money off of other peoples sentimentality and sell things to them based on that. But long term it will not work. And no business should ever base itself on it.'

-Dave

[thecodebear]

Runes are one of the most hilarious* economic systems ever created, after perhaps BRC-20.

1. Someone creates a token with a specific name.
2. Other people can create their own units of these tokens. There is a limit, but usually it's not very low.
3. Then all try to sell their tokens, thinking there will be someone collecting them, either because of the "creative" name, or because it was created on a specific date (e.g. Halving Day).
4. Rinse and repeat (protocol is open, everybody can participate in each step).

Basically it's like "you can create your own money! and you will be rich if you do that!" Are you really willing to waste thousands of dollars of transaction fees for that?

Technically Runes is not much more advanced than Omni/Mastercoin which was created in 2013. More than ten years ago!


If you think Halving Day is special to create your own Rune, think again:

During the halving day, 144 blocks approximately will be created. Each block normally has 1000-3000 transactions. 74% of them currenty are Runes according to this dashboard.
This means probably more than 200.000 Runes will be created today.
Now try to sell them all. Order books will be thick, but only on the ask side


*not in a positive way

Crypto tokens and NFTs and all that sort of stuff are generally worthless. These things only have worth is they have use. For 99% of this stuff the "use" is for the creator to try to market the thing to get rich quick. Once that is done the use is gone.

After people get burnt by this useless worthless stuff enough times they either leave the cryptocurrency space entirely or they realize that Bitcoin is the only thing they should be concerning themselves with. And of course I mean actual bitcoin, not random NFT data stuffed into a transaction of a single Sat or whatever.

[buwaytress]

Crypto tokens and NFTs and all that sort of stuff are generally worthless. These things only have worth is they have use. For 99% of this stuff the "use" is for the creator to try to market the thing to get rich quick. Once that is done the use is gone.

Thing with alts (and runes/ordinals really are just very poor versions of alts, themselves generally poor implementations of cryptocurrency) is they've always done things counter logical.

Bitcoin's utility lay in its solution to existing money problems. Altcoins utility lay in creating solutions, then searching for problems to fit into the solution.

Not to say there isn't past success in manufacturing utility. But these collectibility utility is getting really quite old.

[d5000]

I hope I'm wrong about this, but something tells me it won't be long before the next incarnation of snake-oil is being hyped up by sleazy little grifters.

There will be still a lot of snake oil, but my hope is that it wouldn't again concentrate on the Bitcoin chain, at least not on mainchain. Between 2014 (Counterparty/Omni wave) and 2023 (BRC-20 wave) there was a 9 year stretch where token projects weren't popular at all on the Bitcoin platform. And with good reasons: With the exception of a little extra security there is almost no reason not to use a blockchain like Ethereum or Solana - or even LTC or Doge - for a token project.

Maybe it's time to make most/all Ordinals TX non-standard, since there'll be less people bother opposing to such idea.

At least I wouldn't oppose thinking now about limiting the script size to the same value as for non-Taproot scripts.

A potential side effect however could be that the bigger Ordinals get more "rare" then as it would be difficult to create new ones. This could potentially generate another hype, although at least the blockchains wouldn't suffer that much because basically only transfers would happening. The problem is if miners cooperate with Ordinals firms, to launch even "more rare" collections.

Because in a next bear market that will last like 2 years, these tokens will lose likely more than 90% or 95% of its price.

I think you're too optimistic here still. Even relatively "well-made" altcoins lose often 90% in a "crypto-winter" style bear market. ORDI lost already 50%, in the middle of a bull market.

And one month later they keep minting them, reminds me of gold miners digging for gold 100 years after the mine was depleted. [...] Interestingly enough the more the fees go down the more cheap it becomes for everyone to get some of these, creating an artificial floor[...]

This is why it surprises me that we already see such a big decline. I seriously thought Runes hype would last a little longer. Of course they have not disappeared and still there is significant minting/etching, but the difference to BRC-20, where the initial wave didn't end until at least 6 months later is striking.

[thecodebear]

Crypto tokens and NFTs and all that sort of stuff are generally worthless. These things only have worth is they have use. For 99% of this stuff the "use" is for the creator to try to market the thing to get rich quick. Once that is done the use is gone.

Thing with alts (and runes/ordinals really are just very poor versions of alts, themselves generally poor implementations of cryptocurrency) is they've always done things counter logical.

Bitcoin's utility lay in its solution to existing money problems. Altcoins utility lay in creating solutions, then searching for problems to fit into the solution.

Not to say there isn't past success in manufacturing utility. But these collectibility utility is getting really quite old.

The solution altcoins provide is to try to make the creators rich quick.

The main problem is the tokens themselves. If Ethereum, for example, actually ran all its apps using Ethereum itself, rather than having thousands of different tokens - a different token for every app, plus entirely useless meme tokens, then these apps would have actually been judged and used on their merit. Instead the only reason people use any of these apps is to try to get rich quick on the pump and dumps of these random tokens.

Why would ANYONE want a different token for every different app they use?! lol. I don't want a different credit card or a different currency for every store I go to. That's where things got stupid with Crypto. But the reason was because that's how founders of these companies, or simply creators of these tokens, could get rich quick, and also fund their company. And that's all they cared about. Why create a business with market fit when instead you can create a business with a token and regardless of if your business succeeds, as long as you can get part of the crypto market to try out your token you can make many millions from selling the premine and continuing to own much of the supply.

The idea of tokenizing the world turned out to be as dumb as the idea of "blockchain, not bitcoin" that business suit types started trying to spread back in like 2018 lol. The right thing was always: Bitcoin, only Bitcoin.

[wxa7115]

If there are no urban legends about how someone got rich minting Runes, there is a high probability that they will stop there.
An obvious example was Dogecoin, where many people got rich from nothing, and later we would have a flood of meme tokens for almost every breed of dog. If there isn't much talk of big money on the tokenization of the Bitcoin network, that trend could end up in history.

Couldn’t scammers lie about this as well? Even if they failed this time around to make the profits they were expecting, instead of giving up, they may lie about it, trying to create the image they were successful, to hype the next incarnation of this scam to gullible people.

After all, I would have guessed that by now most of those which have been around for a long time would know to recognize a scam by sight, but it seems I am wrong about that.

[Crypt0Gore]

Runes and ordinals are the new meme coins, unfortunately some people are stupid enough to buy some and hold, thinking that if Bitcoin made a new all time high they will become rich, if I say that I am wondering who will buy from them it is a lie, when retailers start running back to the market they might start buying too because they are bunch of idiots, it was how we never believe that the past meme coins will gain attention but they did, some turn rich and some turned poor.

The way people are investing in these useless ideas is mind bothering, some people Soley care about meme coins only, since crypto is mostly about hype anything can happen, here is what I think, right now it is too early to say that runes and ordinals are done, some idiots will still come back and buy, but when this bear market is over many will end up with worthless inscriptions.

Let's see how things will go this time, I am expecting one more noise on runes and ordinals before they finally died and forgotten, it is a shame that many people will lose a ton of money because of this madness.

[Wind_FURY]

Reading the posts saying Runes are stupid.

Although absolutely true, at least Runes as a protocol for shitcoinery in Bitcoin is better for the blockchain than BRC-20. Runes data are stored directly in UTXOs which means they could be used in LN? Plus it won't be expanding the UTXO set like what Ordinals-based BRC-20 does. That's what many on-chain users want, no? For those spam transactions to be removed on-chain? I believe Runes is the technical development that could do it. The Lightning Network will be spammed though.

[ABCbits]

Maybe it's time to make most/all Ordinals TX non-standard, since there'll be less people bother opposing to such idea.

At least I wouldn't oppose thinking now about limiting the script size to the same value as for non-Taproot scripts.

I was thinking about making OP_FALSE OP_IF ... OP_ENDIF non-standard, since BRC-20 usually put data less than 100 bytes.

A potential side effect however could be that the bigger Ordinals get more "rare" then as it would be difficult to create new ones. This could potentially generate another hype, although at least the blockchains wouldn't suffer that much because basically only transfers would happening. The problem is if miners cooperate with Ordinals firms, to launch even "more rare" collections.

I think such hype wouldn't last long. And i don't see any problem with miner/pool including non-standard TX, assuming they charge premium cost for it. Miner would earn more money, while Ordinal create less spam.

Reading the posts saying Runes are stupid.

Although absolutely true, at least Runes as a protocol for shitcoinery in Bitcoin is better for the blockchain than BRC-20. Runes data are stored directly in UTXOs which means they could be used in LN? Plus it won't be expanding the UTXO set like what Ordinals-based BRC-20 does. That's what many on-chain users want, no? For those spam transactions to be removed on-chain? I believe Runes is the technical development that could do it. The Lightning Network will be spammed though.

I think you forget the fact Runes use OP_RETURN to store the arbitrary data, where OP_RETURN output usually isn't stored on full node UTXO set.

[DooMAD]

Now, their ORDI and SATS enthusiasts still have time like months to enjoy their fun but it's can be starting time for them to think of what will happen next months, next year 2025 and make their plans to take profit, cut loss and exit these tokens, cut those tokens from their portfolios. Because in a next bear market that will last like 2 years, these tokens will lose likely more than 90% or 95% of its price.

The instigators for these things don't have a long-term interest, though.  It's a pump'n'dump.  They hype it up and then sell it ASAP.  Whether it's a bull or bear market, these things aren't designed to retain or increase their value over time.  Anyone still holding it after the initial pump is just a victim who hasn't learned anything yet.

[d5000]

I was thinking about making OP_FALSE OP_IF ... OP_ENDIF non-standard, since BRC-20 usually put data less than 100 bytes.

I would not be happy with such a direct blocking, but I think I made my point clear already in other threads.

Of course projects using BRC-20 could now simply switch to Runes (as they could have done before to platforms like OpenAssets, Counterparty, RGB ...). But I think it's better to simply let BRC-20 die alone. I don't discard there could be some waves still but judging from what we've seen in the past weeks since the halving they will be much smaller and do no harm.

Such a measure would be considered arbitrary if there was no technical reason other to block a standard some do not like. Include me of course among those that don't like BRC-20 , but I think Bitcoin never should target any standard, only real vulnerabilities. So I personally would only support such a "direct block" if the OP_FALSE / OP_IF -> OP_ENDIF combination is really technically dangerous, allowing really malicious scripts, but is that a thing in Bitcoin Script? (I'm not knowledgeable enough to answer this question, but IMO the harm which can be done only is related to that the script size limit can be circunvented).

AFAIK from what I have read in the developer mailing list they don't consider this script to be a "bug" which should be "fixed". Except Luke-Jr, of course, but I think with his datacarriersize method he implemented in Bitcoin Knots, he found a reasonable way for nodes to block Ordinals as "data transactions" if they don't want to relay them.

I think such hype wouldn't last long. And i don't see any problem with miner/pool including non-standard TX, assuming they charge premium cost for it. Miner would earn more money, while Ordinal create less spam.

Possibly you're right. What I fear is however that with such a measure you could paradoxically help BRC-20 to keep alive; they could find a way to transact them with a method not including an Inscription. And those having created them in 2023 and early would feel rewarded to be in possession of such "rare" objects. It's only a bad feeling I have, of course it's not sure if this will happen.

Reading the posts saying Runes are stupid.

For me personally, Runes as a technology isn't that stupid. In the OP I'm referring more to the model to create a token whose only value lies in having a "creative name" and which can then be "minted" by anyone.

But Runes can also be used for things that make more sense, of course, like as a game currency, or as a crowdfunding platform. However, it would not make so much sense to create this kind of currency on Bitcoin due to the fees. The "magic" of Runes is much related to the same (imo stupid) "value proposition" than in BRC-20: having a "valuable" token on the "OG" Bitcoin blockchain. Very much like a NFT, but in a minimally fungible way.

By the way, Runes could be probably transferred via LN if their protocol includes timelocks and hashlocks. I don't know the protocol in detail however. This is something which can be added but adds some complexity to the algorithm (basically they need either a hard-coded way to do those locks or an own "Script language").

[HideYourKeys]

I am really enjoying this... I was hoping this would happen, sometimes I think the only one who got something positive out of this is the creator of the runes... It still surprises me how people keep falling for these scams 

[buwaytress]

The main problem is the tokens themselves. If Ethereum, for example, actually ran all its apps using Ethereum itself, rather than having thousands of different tokens - a different token for every app, plus entirely useless meme tokens, then these apps would have actually been judged and used on their merit. Instead the only reason people use any of these apps is to try to get rich quick on the pump and dumps of these random tokens.

Why would ANYONE want a different token for every different app they use?! lol. I don't want a different credit card or a different currency for every store I go to. That's where things got stupid with Crypto. But the reason was because that's how founders of these companies, or simply creators of these tokens, could get rich quick, and also fund their company. And that's all they cared about. Why create a business with market fit when instead you can create a business with a token and regardless of if your business succeeds, as long as you can get part of the crypto market to try out your token you can make many millions from selling the premine and continuing to own much of the supply.

The idea of tokenizing the world turned out to be as dumb as the idea of "blockchain, not bitcoin" that business suit types started trying to spread back in like 2018 lol. The right thing was always: Bitcoin, only Bitcoin.

I saw through that right from the start -- and I think the majority of app developers did too. But you say an important complementary point to what I said about people manufacturing utility (by creating a solution and then searching for the problem) -- that they also completely lost the plot with Ethereum as a "supercomputer". I agree, they should have just used Ether (gas) to run everything. Their app itself would have made them money but no. They all sold a dream of tokens being traded for demand in whatever half-assed utility they thought up.

That really is all they care about (making money and exiting). Hey, I fell for some of them too.

The worst thing (well, not the worst but) is those suits and ties are now parading as Bitcoiners to sell their Runedinals...

[Filippo Spina]

So everyone that said "No" to ordinals was right?

Well not "right", but the siding with ordinals aged like milk I guess if you liked ordinals or supported them.

Only Runes I fuck with are Runescape lmfao.  

Sorry to everyone that got hurt or had their journey fucked up because of the get rich quick hype. Truly. 

<3

[pixie85]

It's great that bitcoin is in a way purifying itself of all that useless stuff.

I can't say I'm unhappy because the fees went back to normal and all the people who were overpaying hundreds of dollars to put ordinals or runes into the blockchain lost. I appreciate the effort but you guys lost and bitcoin won.

Nobody is going to miss ordinals and runes but people who thought they'd do money from it, just like nobody cares that NFTs are worthless but people who still own them.

[d5000]

But the reason was because that's how founders of these companies, or simply creators of these tokens, could get rich quick, and also fund their company.

But you say an important complementary point to what I said about people manufacturing utility (by creating a solution and then searching for the problem) -- that they also completely lost the plot with Ethereum as a "supercomputer". I agree, they should have just used Ether (gas) to run everything.

I'd like to add a point to this discussion, because I disagree a little bit with you both.

In general I think the use case to fund a company with a premined token, be it on Bitcoin (less recommendable, but I could see some reasons for Bitcoin-specific apps) or on Ethereum or whatever, is not bad per se. It's often hard for companies to get fresh money when they start, above all in parts of the world where loans are not easy to obtain, and the opportunity to create something similar to a "share" on a crypto platform can actually make sense. Above all of course for crypto-related projects, but not only for them.

Cryptocurrencies still are bad for handling the "lending" use case: If you lend BTC to someone and the BTC price spikes or takes a dip, then one of both parties will get an extra benefit. Thus "lending" is mainly a thing in DeFi protocols where people basically use that to leverage trading between different shitcoins, but you wouldn't use a BTC lending platform for a credit to build your house, or to fund your company.

Tokens, on the other hand, are one way to manage "lending" for projects, because this allows them to offer a "value" independent from the volatility of existing cryptocurrencies. Of course the "cleanest" way to do that is to create an utility token which can be traded 1=1 for a service they provide. But sometimes this is not possible in the early stages. But in general, I think this instrument can be handled in a correct way.

But of course @buwaytress you are right about the impression that several of these project searched for a problem what didnt't exist. And some of course were - and still are - outright scams. The challenge is of course: how can investors be protected from that? For some it's like gambling, I think those investing in meme tokens know exactly what they can lose. But some get scammed by projects which look "serious".

Perhaps some kind of "transparency standard" for serious token projects could be elaborated, e.g. with voluntary "quarterly reports", a "prospectus" and so on (no, a "roadmap" is not enough ). In some jurisdictions I know this is actually already mandatory for security tokens (including EU from July on), but I think projects from other countries should embrace this kind of transparency too.

[benalexis12]

Basically it's like "you can create your own money! and you will be rich if you do that!" Are you really willing to waste thousands of dollars of transaction fees for that?

Has this stopped the altcoins creation madness and the billions thrown at them?
Take a look at those:
https://www.coingecko.com/en/categories
The 60 million paid in fees over the last 24 hours is nothing compared to how much those shitcoins have gobbled till now.

You need to stop underestimating the amount people can spend to create shit, the one people can spend to buy shit and how many want to get rich with shit. There are plenty who will say to your explanation, that everyone said shiba inu was crap yet people made millions with it for cents, try to convince them there is no opportunity for money-making here.

Runes will be around for while, there will always be a taker, once it finally dies and gets buried we would by then have at least two or three replacements clogging the chain.

It's true what you're saying; most people who say this coin is shit or that coin is shitcoin are usually the ones who end up being humiliated. And what most people say is shitcoin and that your capital is dangerous in those coins; instead of decreasing, investors are increasing even more due to the intensity of the hype.

Therefore, these shitcoins that are highly hyped are usually the investors who are obsessed with them; they are the ones who get rich, and the others get it right when they suddenly lose the size of the income from meme coins, or shitcoins as they call them.