Samourai Wallet seized by the feds

[Eclipse33]

I heard the news about Samourai devs being seized by the feds and nearly vomited in my mouth.

DO YOU PEOPLE NOT SEE WHERE THIS IS ALL GOING. WE ARE GOING TO BE LIVING IN AN OPEN AIR PRISON.

The case against Samourai will no doubt take YEARS to resolve, and the case will be RAILROADED into oblivion if they plead not guilty.

Either way, these talented men will not see the light of day for DECADES over this.

They will never be able to write a line of code again. Their lives destroyed by the out of control, unaccountable criminal government.

Bitcoin-fog mixer and now Samourai. To the Feds reading this, WHO IS NEXT ON YOUR HIT LIST???

Government locking these innocent men up is a DISGRACE and an attack on every single bitcoiner.

[1714909073]

1714909073

[1714909073]

1714909073

[OgNasty]

We’ll have to wait and see if they are actually convicted of a crime. From reading on this forum it sounds like people have a completely different idea of the services provided from what is in the fed documents. If what people here believe is true, it’s possible the devs will beat this case. I have my doubts though. This sort of seizure doesn’t typically happen unless there are mountains of evidence.

[Wind_FURY]

OK, I believe this proves that the Samourai developers are NOT working for state actors, and the project itself is NOT a honeypot collecting information for intelligence agencies. This is a very sad day for Bitcoin privacy advocates. Kruw, some of your fellow developers were arrested, move on for today. Debate again tomorrow.

Why do you think it's too early to say "I told you so"? Samourai deliberately designed their wallet to collect user data by default and lied about it: https://twitter.com/SamouraiWallet/status/1576923638846005248

I opened an issue to have a warning displayed to users about the data they are leaking, Samourai closed it and later deleted it: https://web.archive.org/web/20230417145554/https://code.samourai.io/wallet/samourai-wallet-android/-/issues/458

I've spent an enormous amount of time warning people about the risks involved with this exact outcome. Now whatever data Samourai had is within arms reach of the Feds.

I'm not stopping you from having an opinion, or am I calling for you to stop posting what you believe is right and what you believe is the truth. I merely letting you understand that real people were arrested. They have families, and they don't want to be in their current situation.  I'm also asking you to PLEASE, keep quiet about Samourai for just a few days.

You may currently be annoyed by what I said, but I would tell other people to stop attacking Wasabi too if there were arrests made to their developers.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[NotATether]

OK, I believe this proves that the Samourai developers are NOT working for state actors, and the project itself is NOT a honeypot collecting information for intelligence agencies. This is a very sad day for Bitcoin privacy advocates. Kruw, some of your fellow developers were arrested, move on for today. Debate again tomorrow.

Why do you think it's too early to say "I told you so"? Samourai deliberately designed their wallet to collect user data by default and lied about it: https://twitter.com/SamouraiWallet/status/1576923638846005248

I opened an issue to have a warning displayed to users about the data they are leaking, Samourai closed it and later deleted it: https://web.archive.org/web/20230417145554/https://code.samourai.io/wallet/samourai-wallet-android/-/issues/458

I've spent an enormous amount of time warning people about the risks involved with this exact outcome. Now whatever data Samourai had is within arms reach of the Feds.

Come back to us after you've disassociated yourself from Wasabi Wallet and then you can tell us "I told you so". Until then, your project is inside the giant crosshairs of the FBI: https://www.ic3.gov/Media/Y2024/PSA240425

[pooya87]

We’ll have to wait and see if they are actually convicted of a crime.

Does it even matter? For those individuals, of course but not for Bitcoin.

What this act achieves is scaring every programmer out there from even contributing to anything privacy related since they now know the anti-privacy dictatorship can traumatize them and their families like this. Not to mention all the huge legal fees these "programmers" have to pay.
Speaking of traumatizing families and legal fees, lets not forget this is not a new thing in USA. Lest we forget arrest of BurtW basically just because he was a bitcoin user...

[Dave1]

OK, I believe this proves that the Samourai developers are NOT working for state actors, and the project itself is NOT a honeypot collecting information for intelligence agencies. This is a very sad day for Bitcoin privacy advocates. Kruw, some of your fellow developers were arrested, move on for today. Debate again tomorrow.

Why do you think it's too early to say "I told you so"? Samourai deliberately designed their wallet to collect user data by default and lied about it: https://twitter.com/SamouraiWallet/status/1576923638846005248

I opened an issue to have a warning displayed to users about the data they are leaking, Samourai closed it and later deleted it: https://web.archive.org/web/20230417145554/https://code.samourai.io/wallet/samourai-wallet-android/-/issues/458

I've spent an enormous amount of time warning people about the risks involved with this exact outcome. Now whatever data Samourai had is within arms reach of the Feds.

Come back to us after you've disassociated yourself from Wasabi Wallet and then you can tell us "I told you so". Until then, your project is inside the giant crosshairs of the FBI: https://www.ic3.gov/Media/Y2024/PSA240425

Yeah, and so for others who 'supposedly' want to check,



For example, I type 'Coinbase' in the Legal Name textbox, and this will be the result,

[ABCbits]

Make money private by default = Monero.
Just sayin.

You don't need shitcoins for privacy. Wasabi Wallet, BTCPay Server's coinjoin plugin, and Trezor's coinjoin account all provide privacy by default for Bitcoin.

Could you explain to us why you claim Monero is shitcoin? After all, Monero is one of few altcoins which usually not associated with such term.

From reading on this forum it sounds like people have a completely different idea of the services provided from what is in the fed documents. If what people here believe is true, it’s possible the devs will beat this case. I have my doubts though. This sort of seizure doesn’t typically happen unless there are mountains of evidence.

Yeah, i never hear about feature "Samourai Premium Add Ons" even though i've read Samourai Wallet documentation few times and read some discussion about Samourai Wallet. PDF (mentioned on the press release) doesn't even mention link/webpage source, so we can't verify whether it's true or not.

[mindrust]

Litecoin has a built-in privacy tool too. It is optional to use but it is there if you need it. That way litecoin has the best of the both worlds. It is not going to targeted by the government and businesses (they may not accept ltc that use mimble-wimble though) and it is not always semi-anonymous like bitcoin. You have a choice.

No need to use a 3rd party mixer/coincoin etc

https://www.elliptic.co/blog/explaining-mimblewimble-the-privacy-upgrade-to-litecoin?hs_amp=true

A viable alternative imo.

[SickDayIn]

The distinguishing reason I believe that these privacy related cryptocurrency ventures get taken down by government, particularly the US government, is because they knowingly contribute to or profit from criminal activity. Based on the DOJ website you linked, there is evidence that Samurai Wallet was aware their product was used by criminals, and they assisted grey/black market activity. Privacy tools will no doubt be used by operations like this, but their owners need to make sure they do not benefit from it.

[Kruw]

I'm not stopping you from having an opinion, or am I calling for you to stop posting what you believe is right and what you believe is the truth. I merely letting you understand that real people were arrested. They have families, and they don't want to be in their current situation.  I'm also asking you to PLEASE, keep quiet about Samourai for just a few days.

You may currently be annoyed by what I said, but I would tell other people to stop attacking Wasabi too if there were arrests made to their developers.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Why don't you tell people to stop attacking Wasabi even though their developers weren't arrested?

Come back to us after you've disassociated yourself from Wasabi Wallet and then you can tell us "I told you so".

Lmao, what? This is a basic truth that anyone who knows anything about Bitcoin privacy has been warning about since Samourai began spying on their users' xpubs. There's vindication across the board:

https://twitter.com/francispouliot_/status/1783245807170224291



https://twitter.com/heavilyarmedc/status/1783273530257244235



https://twitter.com/Mandrik/status/1783235201281216652



https://twitter.com/nvk/status/1783257921779822665



https://twitter.com/mononautical/status/1783215740079727064



https://twitter.com/sethx86/status/1783304959255073231

Could you explain to us why you claim Monero is shitcoin? After all, Monero is one of few altcoins which usually not associated with such term.

You don't need Monero because you can transact privately on Bitcoin.

Litecoin has a built-in privacy tool too. It is optional to use but it is there if you need it. That way litecoin has the best of the both worlds. It is not going to targeted by the government and businesses (they may not accept ltc that use mimble-wimble though) and it is not always semi-anonymous like bitcoin. You have a choice.

No need to use a 3rd party mixer/coincoin etc

https://www.elliptic.co/blog/explaining-mimblewimble-the-privacy-upgrade-to-litecoin?hs_amp=true

A viable alternative imo.

Mimblewimble doesn't provide privacy against an active observer since they can see all the transactions at the time they are created.

[alani123]

You may currently be annoyed by what I said, but I would tell other people to stop attacking Wasabi too if there were arrests made to their developers.

I'll start. I'd like to offer my sincere apologies and take back any statements I had made against Wasabi wallet and the people behind it, including you personally.

My understanding at the time was limited and based on falsehoods and misunderstandings perpetuated by other people as well. I regret having been one of such people at a time.
I think I now have a better understanding of what each proponent in bitcoin's privacy space represent and Really do understand where the Wassabi team are coming from.
In my view, Wassabi is a net-positive proponent for bitcoin's privacy uses and have started greatly appreciating the team for their efforts.

And to anyone else in this thread, I think that we should all acknowledge that Kruw personally has been offering level headed fact-based answers here for so long in spite of so many attacks he and the project have been receiving. Wassabi is offering one of the best bitcoin privacy solutions that can realistically be provided now, and we have to recognize and appreciate that.

[Synchronice]

I am not surprised that this happened. Yeah, they are fighting privacy but at the same time we can't deny that some people really abuse the privacy to do illegal things and hide their activity. We all know that government did it because they want to have power in their hand, they don't want to give people a financial freedom because those who control the money, control everything, so having a control on finance is the most important thing for governments. Since it's also true that people abuse privacy for doing illegal things and hiding traces, it gives governments a right and support from majority of people to do whatever it takes to close the every door for privacy and the majority of people are willingly letting them do it because they believe that government cares about them and it should be done to stop some people from doing illegal things and hiding traces.
So, don't be surprised! More is on the way!

[JackpotRacer]

So, don't be surprised! More is on the way!

Exactly! as sure as we are all going to die > more is on the way! Very sad though

[mindrust]

Mimblewimble doesn't provide privacy against an active observer since they can see all the transactions at the time they are created.

The data posted to blocks in the MimbleWimble blockchain doesn’t reveal any information on both the sender and receiver’s identification and transaction amounts. In fact, for an observer the information contained within a block looks like randomized data.

https://www.blockchainbeach.com/going-deep-on-privacy-mimblewimble-part-2/

How so?

[Kruw]

The data posted to blocks in the MimbleWimble blockchain doesn’t reveal any information on both the sender and receiver’s identification and transaction amounts. In fact, for an observer the information contained within a block looks like randomized data.

https://www.blockchainbeach.com/going-deep-on-privacy-mimblewimble-part-2/

How so?

h/t Shinobi: https://twitter.com/brian_trollz/status/1780220196994617725

People gave up on MimbleWimble because the privacy in practice doesn't work. The whole selling point was that transactions, which are just point multiplication, can be added together to obscure the graph.

The problem is, nodes snooping on the network are the ones who would aggregate them, and they can snoop on the individual transactions propagating before aggregation and undermine the privacy.

[NotATether]

Come back to us after you've disassociated yourself from Wasabi Wallet and then you can tell us "I told you so".

Lmao, what? This is a basic truth that anyone who knows anything about Bitcoin privacy has been warning about since Samourai began spying on their users' xpubs. There's vindication across the board:

If you were using Sparrow or running your own dojo instead of the main Samourai coordinator, then no xpub was sent in the first place. Also what does this have to do with my previous comment.

Could you explain to us why you claim Monero is shitcoin? After all, Monero is one of few altcoins which usually not associated with such term.

You don't need Monero because you can transact privately on Bitcoin.

You are lying. I run a mixer directory and even I admit that crypto transactions cannot be made anonymous as long as you can draw a transaction graph of an address. [I.e. everything except for CryptoNote coins]

h/t Shinobi: https://twitter.com/brian_trollz/status/1780220196994617725

People gave up on MimbleWimble because the privacy in practice doesn't work. The whole selling point was that transactions, which are just point multiplication, can be added together to obscure the graph.

The problem is, nodes snooping on the network are the ones who would aggregate them, and they can snoop on the individual transactions propagating before aggregation and undermine the privacy.

This is only correct theoretically, in practice Shinobi is wrong about this because almost all LTC nodes are running Litecoin Core which does not do such telemetry.

[Kruw]

You are lying. I run a mixer directory and even I admit that crypto transactions cannot be made anonymous as long as you can draw a transaction graph of an address. [I.e. everything except for CryptoNote coins]

Prove it then. Tell me which inputs created which outputs in this Bitcoin transaction:

If you aren't lying, then prove it by tracing this Wasabi coinjoin: https://mempool.space/tx/bffa359a9d7908be069800e6bf471db1050496fc4fac40298b15c0d126202298

[NotATether]

You are lying. I run a mixer directory and even I admit that crypto transactions cannot be made anonymous as long as you can draw a transaction graph of an address. [I.e. everything except for CryptoNote coins]

Prove it then. Tell me which inputs created which outputs in this Bitcoin transaction:

If you aren't lying, then prove it by tracing this Wasabi coinjoin: https://mempool.space/tx/bffa359a9d7908be069800e6bf471db1050496fc4fac40298b15c0d126202298

Why should I have to do it? I don't have server farms or sophisticated monitoring programs. You can challenge some people who do, though. Here, I will leave you their addresses:

sales@chainalysis.com
https://www.elliptic.co/schedule-demo

[Kruw]

Why should I have to do it?

You have to do it because you called me a liar:

You are lying. I run a mixer directory and even I admit that crypto transactions cannot be made anonymous as long as you can draw a transaction graph of an address. [I.e. everything except for CryptoNote coins]

[BlackHatCoiner]

You are lying.

You can have privacy on-chain, it's just becoming more and more difficult. Joinmarket, for example, is decentralized coinjoin. But, I doubt it's getting the necessary recognition, and it's pretty expensive to be honest.

Those accusations are disingenuous and have been debunked numerous times already.

OK, man. Stick with whatever acquits Wasabi, lol. If you can't see the red flags from the numerous accusations of users and even developers declaring Wasabi as risky for your privacy, the childish behavior presented by Wasabi developers and the fact that they're funding the enemy, then I don't know what to say. Nothing smells fishy, stick with this notion.

Prove it then. Tell me which inputs created which outputs in this Bitcoin transaction

At this point, you're making me quote him.

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