Is Samourai wallet now banned from Bitcointalk?

[dkbit98]

Theymos probably opened a Pandora's box when he banned mixers from bitcointalk forum, because US/EU officials can now call anything to be a ''mixer'' including bitcoin wallets
I was never a big fan of Samourai wallet, but that is open source tool for privacy and lot of people used it.

Founders And CEO Of Cryptocurrency Mixing Service Arrested And Charged With Money Laundering And Unlicensed Money Transmitting Offenses.

These charges arise from the defendants’ development, marketing, and operation of a cryptocurrency mixer

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/founders-and-ceo-cryptocurrency-mixing-service-arrested-and-charged-money-laundering

I think people will have to change definitions about many things soon.

Welcome to 2024 1984  

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[Charles-Tim]

BlackHatCoiner created the thread some minutes faster than you

Samourai Wallet seized by the feds

[dkbit98]

BlackHatCoiner created the thread some minutes faster than you

It's not a duplicate because I asked direct question to forum administration, that is why it's posted in Meta board.
I suspect that someone will probably fork Samourai wallet and it will continue to exist in some form.
Thank you for understanding.

[Charles-Tim]

It's not a duplicate because I asked direct question to forum administration, that is why it's posted in Meta board.
I suspect that someone will probably fork Samourai wallet and it will continue to exist in some form.
Thank you for understanding.

My bad. I did not know you created it on Meta. I was thinking it is about the Samourai that has been taken down.

[SamReomo]

The Samourai wallet isn't yet banned from Bitcointalk but I'm very sure that it's going to get banned soon as it has already been seized by feds, so allowing it on the forum won't be helpful for anyone.

Personally, I haven't used that wallet at all but it's a matter of concern for those who give much priority to such wallets that give some kind of privacy to the users.

If feds have made allegations of money laundering on the creators of that wallet then at least the owners of the wallet might have done something wrong I believe.

If Samourai wallet is seized the next target of the feds might be that Wasabi wallet. That wallet also claims to offer privacy to the users and in today's world privacy is a crime.

[FinneysTrueVision]

The accusation of being an unlicensed money transmitter is frivolous and should not stand up in court. If Samourai is a money transmitter, then so is every other self-custodial wallet. The only difference between Samourai and other wallets is that coinjoin transactions are structured differently from a typical transaction by allowing multiple parties to spend together. Whether they should be banned from the forum doesn’t matter because nobody can use the whirlpool service anymore.

If coinjoin services like JoinMarket, Wabisabi, or a potential Whirlpool fork should be banned I think it would be a mistake. Coinjoining isn’t inherently criminal behavior. It is something which enhances user privacy, like using a VPN or Tor but for financial transactions.

[mocacinno]

--snip--
Coinjoining isn’t inherently criminal behavior. It is something which enhances user privacy, like using a VPN or Tor but for financial transactions.

From my point of view, mixing isn't inherently criminal behavior either.... As a matter of fact, many people (including myself) use(d) mixer to increase their privacy. It's nobody's business how much BTC i hold, that's private information (just like my FIAT balance on my bank account). But this didn't stop the world's governements of attacking all mixing services, so i don't see why they wouldn't increase their attack surface by making every service that isn't 100% KYC and actively working with them a valid target.

But that discussion is deviating from OP's initial question i'm afraid.

[hugeblack]

Theymos probably opened a Pandora's box when he banned mixers from bitcointalk forum, because US/EU officials can now call anything to be a ''mixer'' including bitcoin wallets

Yet A cryptocurrency mixing service is not necessarily illegal. It is an online service that allows users to disguise the origin and destination of cryptocurrencies.
Even if the wallets are classified as mixers, they are legal.

Is Samourai wallet now banned from Bitcointalk? No, I can type https://chipmixer.com/ and http://sinbad.io/ without getting banned.

[NotATether]

Founders And CEO Of Cryptocurrency Mixing Service Arrested And Charged With Money Laundering And Unlicensed Money Transmitting Offenses.

Rhetorical question, but should BurtW be banned from Bitcointalk for Money Laundering And Unlicensed Money Transmitting Offenses?

(I don't even know BurtW, but his case exemplifies why most government accusations of money laundering in relation to using coinjoin or just plain exchanging are BS.)

[ABCbits]

Aside from it's mixer coinjoin feature, i've seen some support thread about managing Bitcoin on Samourai wallet. If Samourai wallet were to be banned, it'll make some people have harder time from either keep using or moving their Bitcoin.

[dkbit98]

From my point of view, mixing isn't inherently criminal behavior either.... As a matter of fact, many people (including myself) use(d) mixer to increase their privacy. It's nobody's business how much BTC i hold, that's private information (just like my FIAT balance on my bank account). But this didn't stop the world's governements of attacking all mixing services, so i don't see why they wouldn't increase their attack surface by making every service that isn't 100% KYC and actively working with them a valid target.

Don't be surprised if they even make Privacy illegal soon, that is the way we are going now.
If they started to ban and arrest people who created open source wallets than be sure they will expand in future to other wallets and services.
They clearly wanted to send a message with this.

Is Samourai wallet now banned from Bitcointalk? No, I can type https://chipmixer.com/ and http://sinbad.io/ without getting banned.

Please be serious.
BAN from forum is not the same as not being able to type name of that service in forum 

Rhetorical question, but should BurtW be banned from Bitcointalk for Money Laundering And Unlicensed Money Transmitting Offenses?

He was not accused of being a mixer, but that was back in 2015 and lot of things changed since than.


I am wondering if theymos is going to update his definition of mixer again 

Definition of a mixer

For clarity, here is a detailed definition of what we mean by a "mixer". Most people know intuitively what a mixer is and don't have to read this.

Something is considered a mixer if it meets all of these requirements:
 1. It has a feature advertised for taking property, improving its privacy somehow, and then returning roughly the same type of property.
     a. Even though you can sometimes use non-mixers to mix coins by depositing and then withdrawing, this doesn't make it a mixer because this is an incidental use of the service; the service isn't advertised as privacy-enhancing.
     b. If a site is not primarily a mixer but has a mixer function, such as a mixer function on a gambling website, then the whole site is considered a mixer.
     c. If the site takes coins, gives you a possibly-transferrable IOU, and will convert this IOU back into mixed coins much later, then the temporary conversion into a different type of property does not prevent it from being considered a mixer.
     d. If the site internally converts your deposit into other things as part of its mixing, but ultimately the point of the product is to get your original type of property back, then that's a mixer, not an exchanger.
 2. It is possible for the mixer to steal property passing through it. Assume that the sender does everything as correctly as possible. Also assume that no miners/verifiers on the base-layer cryptocurrency are evil. But assume that every other actor involved is evil (everyone able to vote in a DAO, every coordination server, every counterparty, every member of a multisig, etc.). Ignore short-term software bugs which are expected to be quickly fixed.
 3. The service does not collect KYC-type info from all users. (This is not an endorsement of KYC generally, or a condemnation of non-KYC services generally. Non-KYC services of other types are still allowed, and in many cases they are a good idea.)

Examples of things that are not banned mixers include exchangers (unless they have a mixing function), CoinJoin-supporting non-custodial wallets, and Monero.

[theymos]

If Samourai in particular (the entity, not its protocol/code) pops up again via a Tor hidden service or something, that would be banned. There's no need to ban links to already-seized sites.

Other trustless CoinJoin services are still allowed. This case seems largely to rely on an idiosyncratic issue with Samourai, namely that there were allegedly instances of Samourai devs very directly marketing to people committing crimes.

Theymos probably opened a Pandora's box when he banned mixers

I feel that this sort of thing justifies my decision, which was based in part on seeing a pattern of increasing "squeezing" of privacy services. This Samourai action is in-line with my predicted trend, which I think will only get worse. Since I am not surprised by this sort of action, it does not make me want to expand the mixer definition.


There's a giant institution with guns out there which wants to destroy every centralized, destroyable component they can find related to privacy. Every centralized privacy service is at risk of being nuked from orbit at any moment, and you want to be nowhere near the strike zone. I think that the legal argument against Samourai is fairly weak, but the law is only ink on a piece of paper: it has no magical powers to protect you. I wouldn't be surprised if the Samourai devs win their case in the end, but their lives are still going to be ruined for at least the next few years, and they'll probably be bankrupted. The fact is that the powers-that-be desperately want these things destroyed, and they're eventually going to find ways of destroying them, if there's any way to do so.

I'm certainly not saying that privacy is a lost cause, but this environment requires a much higher standard of robustness and decentralization. This isn't as free a world as it was when Bitcoin was first created.

[RickDeckard]

From my point of view, mixing isn't inherently criminal behavior either.... As a matter of fact, many people (including myself) use(d) mixer to increase their privacy. It's nobody's business how much BTC i hold, that's private information (just like my FIAT balance on my bank account). But this didn't stop the world's governements of attacking all mixing services, so i don't see why they wouldn't increase their attack surface by making every service that isn't 100% KYC and actively working with them a valid target.

Don't be surprised if they even make Privacy illegal soon, that is the way we are going now.
If they started to ban and arrest people who created open source wallets than be sure they will expand in future to other wallets and services.
They clearly wanted to send a message with this.
(...)

Well I picked up in the news that there is actually a proposed rule by the Commerce Department issued on 01/29/2024 - whose comments are being collected until 04/29/2024 - whose intend is to KYC "foreign customers" who use IaaS products:

The Executive order of January 19, 2021, “Taking Additional Steps To Address the National Emergency With Respect to Significant Malicious Cyber-Enabled Activities,” directs the Secretary of Commerce (Secretary) to propose regulations requiring U.S. Infrastructure as a Service (IaaS) providers of IaaS products to verify the identity of their foreign customers, along with procedures for the Secretary to grant exemptions; and authorize special measures to deter foreign malicious cyber actors' use of U.S. IaaS products.(...)

The bill is aimed towards identifying foreign customers that intend to train AI models considering the next paragraph of the summary, but even still it doesn't hide the fact that it is still a intend to KYC people that use IaaS services:

(...) The Executive order of October 30, 2023, “Safe, Secure, and Trustworthy Development and Use of Artificial Intelligence,” further directs the Secretary to propose regulations that require providers of certain IaaS products to submit a report to the Secretary when a foreign person transacts with that provider or reseller to train a large Artificial Intelligence (AI) model with potential capabilities that could be used in malicious cyber-enabled activity.

[1]https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/01/29/2024-01580/taking-additional-steps-to-address-the-national-emergency-with-respect-to-significant-malicious

[Sandra_hakeem]

From my point of view, mixing isn't inherently criminal behavior either.... As a matter of fact, many people (including myself) use(d) mixer to increase their privacy. It's nobody's business how much BTC i hold, that's private information (just like my FIAT balance on my bank account).

I'm not in support of the privacy alleviation and censorships that the US governments are coming up with, but if that's justifiably a way to detar the money laundering cases globally, they have the upper hand.
Secondly, your FIAT balance on your local bank isn't your privacy; I'm not sure what term your local banking system operates with but, I'm sure that if a huge fund drops in your bank for the first time, they'll likely wanna trace where, how and to what the funds goes for..

But this didn't stop the world's governements of attacking all mixing services, so i don't see why they wouldn't increase their attack surface by making every service that isn't 100% KYC and actively working with them a valid target.

There's an adage that says; " A man that brings to his home some ant infested faggot shouldn't complain of a swollen hip"

[Poker Player]

What is clear to me is that if Samourai wallet were to somehow become able to operate it was not going to be able to have an Ann thread on Bitcointalk, nor a signature campaign either. For sig campaigns there are only exchanges and casinos. And let's hope they don't go after them in the future as well.

[mocacinno]

From my point of view, mixing isn't inherently criminal behavior either.... As a matter of fact, many people (including myself) use(d) mixer to increase their privacy. It's nobody's business how much BTC i hold, that's private information (just like my FIAT balance on my bank account).

--snip--
Secondly, your FIAT balance on your local bank isn't your privacy; I'm not sure what term your local banking system operates with but, I'm sure that if a huge fund drops in your bank for the first time, they'll likely wanna trace where, how and to what the funds goes for..
--snip--

you're right, if my fiat bank account received a lot of money, my bank would probably notify the government. If i'm not mistaking, in my country the tax authority can even request to take a look at all your bank statements...

What i actually wanted to say was more or less pointed towards a $5 crowbar attack. If i can no longer anonimise my funds because the government simply makes my privacy illegal, they open me up to malicious people tracking how much funds i have, picking up a crowbar and visiting me at home. In this usecase, my fiat bank account has even more privacy since only bank employees and government agencies know how much FIAT money i have, and they won't come to my home to hold my child and my wife hostage untill i give them my visa card and pin code (they have other, less violent, ways to rob me).

I personally think the governement is trading in my privacy AND SECURITY for their convenience in tracking down transactions used to pay for illegal activity's. I'm all for putting bad people behind bars, but i'm strongly opposed to sacrificing my anonimity, security and freedom so they have an easyer job finding those criminals.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

If Samourai is a money transmitter, then so is every other self-custodial wallet.

Makes me wonder if that's where the government is headed with all this.  I never used Samouai, though I remember seeing it available on google play; they used coinjoin?  I thought it was some other kind of mechanism (neither of which I really understand, to be honest).

Welcome to 2024 1984  

We've been in 1984 for a long time now, but new technology is only making the surveillance state more brutal.  Add that to a government (I'm talking about the US here) that wants to see everything you're doing at all times and a population that's more than comfortable putting all of their private life online, and you've got a recipe for a world that George Orwell couldn't even imagine.

<snip>
I'm certainly not saying that privacy is a lost cause, but this environment requires a much higher standard of robustness and decentralization. This isn't as free a world as it was when Bitcoin was first created.

Whoops, I read your post after writing the above.  I don't think I've ever merited any of your posts, but that one hit the nail so directly on the head that I couldn't help myself. 

For anyone in crypto, how the hell do we keep away from the strike zone if it just keeps expanding (or we don't know exactly where it is)?

[EarnOnVictor]

Theymos probably opened a Pandora's box when he banned mixers from bitcointalk forum, because US/EU officials can now call anything to be a ''mixer'' including bitcoin wallets
I was never a big fan of Samourai wallet, but that is open source tool for privacy and lot of people used it.

-snip-

I think people will have to change definitions about many things soon.

Welcome to 2024 1984  

We are in 2024 and not 1984, and we have to get used to the development. That's why eyes are being opened wider and the government getting advanced in their thing.

But I don't see why theymos or the forum should be dragged into this. He made his intentions known that time and the reason for it which is genuine in every moral reasoning and in the sane world. As usual, people, just like you do now talk less about the allegation but more about the situation, even as you downplayed the core function and capability of the Samourai wallet.

Samourai Wallet was a mobile-first cryptocurrency mixing service combining multiple features to execute anonymous financial transactions.

That was an excerpt from "Infosecurity magazine." And this is another mind-opener for theymos to further restrict some things (if he wants), but no one can blame him if he is not stricter enough for some reasons best known to him.

[LoyceV]

Don't be surprised if they even make Privacy illegal soon, that is the way we are going now.

That would mean publicly denouncing Human Rights:

Article 12

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

In this usecase, my fiat bank account has even more privacy since only bank employees and government agencies know how much FIAT money i have, and they won't come to my home to hold my child and my wife hostage untill i give them my visa card and pin code (they have other, less violent, ways to rob me).

I'm already required to report "other" funds, such as Bitcoin, to taxes. And considering thousands of tax employees have access, and the tax authorities don't keep track of who checks which files, I wouldn't be so sure none of them can have bad intentions.

[dkbit98]

If Samourai in particular (the entity, not its protocol/code) pops up again via a Tor hidden service or something, that would be banned. There's no need to ban links to already-seized sites.

I expected to hear this.
Someone could always change the name of the fork, make some changes and call it a Ninja wallet.

I'm certainly not saying that privacy is a lost cause, but this environment requires a much higher standard of robustness and decentralization. This isn't as free a world as it was when Bitcoin was first created.

For sure, but why don't you think about making bitcointalk forum more decentralized and resistant to ban and government restrictions?
Not saying this is easy thing to do.

That would mean publicly denouncing Human Rights

In reality they don't care about human rights at all, and they can always justify this by making up some imaginary threat or say it's all for our safety.

In case you didn't read the latest statement by one of the three letter government agency, now they are warning everyone not to use non-kyc Bitcoin and crypto money transmitting services  
https://www.ic3.gov/Media/Y2024/PSA240425