The airstrikes begin... (Phoenix Wallet)

[NotATether]

There's a giant institution with guns out there which wants to destroy every centralized, destroyable component they can find related to privacy. Every centralized privacy service is at risk of being nuked from orbit at any moment, and you want to be nowhere near the strike zone. I think that the legal argument against Samourai is fairly weak, but the law is only ink on a piece of paper: it has no magical powers to protect you. I wouldn't be surprised if the Samourai devs win their case in the end, but their lives are still going to be ruined for at least the next few years, and they'll probably be bankrupted. The fact is that the powers-that-be desperately want these things destroyed, and they're eventually going to find ways of destroying them, if there's any way to do so.

I'm certainly not saying that privacy is a lost cause, but this environment requires a much higher standard of robustness and decentralization. This isn't as free a world as it was when Bitcoin was first created.

Apparently, the strike zone is all US people, whether they actually live in the US or not.

For the record, I am one of those US people!

We can't let this go down without a fight.

[1715156490]

1715156490

[Upgrade00]

It already began months back, the noose is just getting tighter with time. The best alternative could have been to move to a more privacy friendly country, but not everyone has that freedom and countries change their laws constantly.

As a side note, that quote from theymos was made this month, 2-3 days back. Is it a bug that's causing it to show February as the date or you quoted it wrong?

[NotATether]

It already began months back, the noose is just getting tighter with time. The best alternative could have been to move to a more privacy friendly country, but not everyone has that freedom and countries change their laws constantly.

As a side note, that quote from theymos was made this month, 2-3 days back. Is it a bug that's causing it to show February as the date or you quoted it wrong?

I had to manually reconstruct the quote since the thread was locked, so I think the wrong UNIX timestamp got posted.

[Oshosondy]

But there is something that I am not yet getting. What is the reason custodial lightning wallets are removed from the United States citizens? I can remember that Wallet of Satoshi was removed from the Google Playstore and App store some weeks ago but no reason was also stated.

[Davidvictorson]

We are looking at a situation where very soon US IP addresses will blocked from using more lightning nodes. And it has started already.

Apparently, the strike zone is all US people, whether they actually live in the US or not.

For the record, I am one of those US people!

We can't let this go down without a fight.

How will US people fight ? Learn how to create and manage your own channel.

[Oshosondy]

We are looking at a situation where very soon US IP addresses will blocked from using more lightning nodes. And it has started already.

You can use tor to access everything about bitcoin, you do not need to depend on US IP. But only if it is noncustodial with no central authority.

How will US people fight ? Learn how to create and manage your own channel.

Most people do not use noncustodial lightning network because it is not simple to open a channel and it requires bitcoin fee to open and close a channel.

[AB de Royse777]

Bitcoin people need their own island, decentralized society and low enforcement.

[Davidvictorson]

How will US people fight ? Learn how to create and manage your own channel.

Most people do not use noncustodial lightning network because it is not simple to open a channel and it requires bitcoin fee to open and close a channel.

That's the problem right there. It's not easy to open a channel and requires a few, therefore it is not for small Bitcoin holders. How do you suggest that US citizens fight back?

Bitcoin people need their own island, decentralized society and low enforcement.

Assuming this was possible, this is one way to fight back.
I suggest the name of the island be called, "Satoshi Island".

[Oshosondy]

Assuming this was possible, this is one way to fight back.
I suggest the name of the island be called, "Satoshi Island".

I am not saying that you are wrong, but I am just saying lightning network has a bit of on-chain which is opening and closing channel and some technical issue that can be related to it. You are right because not depending on centralized means has been the way that the government are not able to take decentralized projects down. You are right. But just that most people that are using lightning network are not using noncustodial lightning network.

[Davidvictorson]

I am not saying that you are wrong, but I am just saying lightning network has a bit of on-chain which is opening and closing channel and some technical issue that can be related to it. You are right because not depending on centralized means has been the way that the government are not able to take decentralized projects down. You are right. But just that most people that are using lightning network are not using noncustodial lightning network.

I understand and it's good to have also read it from your own viewpoint.

[Yamane_Keto]

Banning app is not a problem as it can be downloaded from third party links, but it gives a bad signal to developers, as they will be less keen on developing services for privacy. But does US know that transactions in the Lightning Network are still P2P?

[NotATether]

Bitcoin people need their own island, decentralized society and low enforcement.

No, this policy is weeding out the greedy projects from the real Bitcoin projects.

The ones who care more about money than Bitcoin's decentralization ethos are blocking access to US (Phoenix, W*s*bi)

Meanwhile the ones who have always been in the privacy game continue to run without changes, like Zeus Wallet.

I would rather use a service that cares about my privacy than one that cares about (profiting off of) my money. No need to flee anywhere, as Bitcoin was intended to be a global, decentralized currency.

[Oshosondy]

I would rather use a service that cares about my privacy than one that cares about (profiting off of) my money. No need to flee anywhere, as Bitcoin was intended to be a global, decentralized currency.

But what about their app download on GitHub? https://github.com/ACINQ/phoenix/releases

Even if their app is removed from Google Playstore and App store, users can still use Tor to download it and still be using tor to continue to use the lightning network app on their device. Many US citizens may not know this though.

[m2017]

Bitcoin people need their own island, decentralized society and low enforcement.

You will not find such an island on planet Earth, or sooner or later neighbors will come to you who will want to impose their democracy on you teach you how to live correctly and what correct wallets to use.

BTC-system must be integrated into the existing lives of people in such a way that it remains independent and invulnerable to any government (or their association).

Escape and search for “earthly paradise” is naive and pointless, unless it’s to the moon or Mars.

And the airstrikes will continue. And among other countries. To “survive”, will have to adapt to situations and look for new solutions.

[NotATether]

I would rather use a service that cares about my privacy than one that cares about (profiting off of) my money. No need to flee anywhere, as Bitcoin was intended to be a global, decentralized currency.

But what about their app download on GitHub? https://github.com/ACINQ/phoenix/releases

Even if their app is removed from Google Playstore and App store, users can still use Tor to download it and still be using tor to continue to use the lightning network app on their device. Many US citizens may not know this though.

They quite explicitly declare that they do not want any US users so I would not risk holding any funds in Lightning channels there lest they try to obtain the whole balance by force.

[DaveF]

As always run your own node. There are a couple of guides here and many nodes in a box / prepackaged nodes like mynodebtc or umbrel will use TOR for everything.

Phoenix wallet is run by ACINQ. Having them leave the US is a GOOD thing.
They are the #1 node in terms of channels and the #2 node in terms of capacity. So on the surface it's a oh no they are leaving thing this is so bad.
BUT....
Being #1 and #2 is not a good thing for the lightning network.
NOBODY else in the top 7 spots for either is in both lists.



If you think loosing mixers is bad in terms of privacy. When they have that many channels going through them and that much funding they probably have more info on your LN use then MasterCard does on your shopping.
(OK it's not that bad but you get the point)

If DaveF is using phoenix wallet and wants to pay NotATether who uses phoenix wallet then ACINQ knows all about it.

I hope they shrink a lot so more services come into the space.

-Dave

[Z-tight]

U.S strict regulatory laws is pushing another crypto service out of the U.S, as Phoenix is no longer offering their service to U.S customers. Everyday it gets harder to use BTC in the U.S, especially privately and in the way you want it, the government want people to use BTC only on their terms and that defeats the purpose of BTC, and it can only get worse for bitcoiners there.

[stompix]

We can't let this go down without a fight.

Yeah, we will!
Who is going to fight for this?
You see how ACINQ themselves have run before something bad happened to them, others are slowly pulling the plugs on projects, users are interested only in making more in $ value, the blockchain space is dominated by pump and dump scheme, nft, runes, brc tokens,  more and more are investing in either not you keys only promises mechanisms, tru usage is dwindling, mining is becoming a nasdaq listed playground, so...who will fight?
It should have been obvious when even here thermos (yup, thermos), got cold feet!

According to blogs and crypto news 10% of India owner crypto, that's like *** 100 million people, have you seen one protest against that 40% tax?

Phoenix wallet is run by ACINQ. Having them leave the US is a GOOD thing.

And when the EU does the same, what will they do? Prepare for mandatory KYC LN payments. 

[DaveF]

Phoenix wallet is run by ACINQ. Having them leave the US is a GOOD thing.

And when the EU does the same, what will they do? Prepare for mandatory KYC LN payments. 

I would like to see more of what I do. More people running their own node peering to each other with lots of smaller channels.

With multi-path payments these monster nodes are really not needed as much.
https://docs.lightning.engineering/the-lightning-network/pathfinding/multipath-payments-mpp

Everyone should connect to as many other nodes as possible an this open large channels to large providers making them even larger is not helping growth.

Once again and as always....in my opinion.

-Dave

[mindrust]

So it came to this in the end. Decentralized/anonymous projects or go bust. You either partner with the gov, do as they say or... don't even begin coding. Shit like that will discourage crypto devs from building any centralized service. Maybe it is for the best. This is a war we'll have to fight sooner or later. The sooner, the better imo. They couldn't stop torrent services. Let's see if they can stop crypto.

If they go all out on crypto, we will probably end up using monero when this comes to an end. Not because we like xmr more than btc, it is because they won't leave us a choice.