MemoryDealers aka Roger Ver Arrested!

[The Sceptical Chymist]

The Uniited States tax laws are insane. Despite several attempts to try and wrap my head around it, I hit a brick wall every time. It seems like a design intended to indict people rather than make the process easier for them, you have to figure out what to do and when to do it, otherwise you'll face prosecution.

I just stumbled across this thread, and *wow* I'm blown away at the charges but somehow not entirely surprised by the alleged behavior on the part of Ver.  I'd no clue that he'd become an ex-pat, either.

But yep, taxes and all the laws regarding them are indeed crazy in the US.  However, in other countries the actual tax rates are even higher (though I don't know how complex the laws are, or how fucking hard they make it for the average person to file their taxes without resorting to expensive software or hiring an accountant).  I don't think the IRS is looking to put people in jail necessarily, but they just make doing your taxes unnecessarily difficult/costly as I just said.  The amount of money involved in this case is huge, but for "little people" who owe back taxes or get caught up in tax issues, the IRS usually settles with them in the form of a fine, penalties, whatever and they don't end up in prison.

Most crypto rich people wanted to show off, wanted to be famous and now they are paying the price for their stupidity.

No offense to the younger generation, but that has a lot to do with immaturity in a lot of cases--Roger Ver is an exception if he flaunted his wealth, but I have heard tell of a lot of young, crypto-wealthy people making it known on social media what their financial situation is, how rich they are, and even if they didn't get in trouble with the IRS, they got robbed.  Plus even if Ver weren't vocal about his wealth, I'm sure the IRS would have had its eyes on him anyway and they've got enough investigative power such that they don't need to resort to following his escapades online, you know?

[blckhawk]

The worst thing with this topic, is the comparison with Sam Bankman-Fried. It is clear that financing political parties pays-off... just compare the two judicial sentences

Exactly, having friends in really high places would make you get away on things that would end someone if they ever get to that place. I think that him being a shill for Bitcoin Cash has anything to do with this one but I do hope that he can survive this thing because this is clearly another attack by the authorities against cryptocurrency and the community. Isn't tax fraud a bit unjustifiable being his case? Ver's been on the crypto space for a long time and this is the only time that they've done some kind of connection? Maybe if they were building a case, they would've easily done it a long time ago.

[NotATether]

The worst thing with this topic, is the comparison with Sam Bankman-Fried. It is clear that financing political parties pays-off... just compare the two judicial sentences

Exactly, having friends in really high places would make you get away on things that would end someone if they ever get to that place. I think that him being a shill for Bitcoin Cash has anything to do with this one but I do hope that he can survive this thing because this is clearly another attack by the authorities against cryptocurrency and the community. Isn't tax fraud a bit unjustifiable being his case? Ver's been on the crypto space for a long time and this is the only time that they've done some kind of connection? Maybe if they were building a case, they would've easily done it a long time ago.

Sam was never a crypto man to begin with. He worked at Jane Street before he went into crypto (in case you never heard of that, it is some sort of hedge fund at Wall Street), and the only thing he really  did in relation to crypto is open an exchange for bitcoin and lots of shitcoins after that run and bust in 2018.

Govs probably don't care about Bitcoin Cash to begin with so that probably does not affect him in this case except for tax purposes.

[blckhawk]

~

Sam was never a crypto man to begin with. He worked at Jane Street before he went into crypto (in case you never heard of that, it is some sort of hedge fund at Wall Street), and the only thing he really  did in relation to crypto is open an exchange for bitcoin and lots of shitcoins after that run and bust in 2018.

Govs probably don't care about Bitcoin Cash to begin with so that probably does not affect him in this case except for tax purposes.

But still, the image of cryptocurrency would be tarnished because common people are dumb, whatever they say on TV will be followed as the hard and irrefutable truth which would only serve to repulse more people into crypto because they don't care to do any kind of research of their own. I do know that they don't care about the bitcoin cash thing but it's common knowledge in the crypto community that the government don't like things that they can't control so in a way I think that they care to some degree that it's someone from the crypto community they're arresting, the tax fraud was just a convenient addition if not the main objective.

[nutildah]

The Uniited States tax laws are insane. Despite several attempts to try and wrap my head around it, I hit a brick wall every time. It seems like a design intended to indict people rather than make the process easier for them, you have to figure out what to do and when to do it, otherwise you'll face prosecution.

...
I don't think the IRS is looking to put people in jail necessarily, but they just make doing your taxes unnecessarily difficult/costly as I just said.  The amount of money involved in this case is huge, but for "little people" who owe back taxes or get caught up in tax issues, the IRS usually settles with them in the form of a fine, penalties, whatever and they don't end up in prison.

One thing I learned recently is that the IRS will not go after somebody if the cost of the investigation is larger than the amount of money that can potentially be collected. This info comes first hand from a professional collector who worked as an IRS agent for decades.

Unless you owe, oh lets say $50k or more, the government is unlikely to go after you, because the collectors work on a partly commission-based salary. If you only owe $10k, the amount of commission the collector will receive is small, and in the case of someone like Roger Ver who is living overseas, the cost of the investigation itself could easily surpass $10k. So if that was the case with Ver, he probably would never have been arrested.

TL;DR: small-timers don't have anything to worry about.

[dkbit98]

One thing I learned recently is that the IRS will not go after somebody if the cost of the investigation is larger than the amount of money that can potentially be collected. This info comes first hand from a professional collector who worked as an IRS agent for decades.

Didn't they hire a bunch of new people in last few years to work for IRS?
They can always find someone who is living in different countries around the world and pay them much less to help them to arrest anyone they want.
No need to spend so much money for traveling as person being arrested is going to be held in foreign prison first, like Roger is held in the same prison like John McAfee was... what a ''coincidence''.

[nutildah]

Didn't they hire a bunch of new people in last few years to work for IRS?

Yes, they did.

They can always find someone who is living in different countries around the world and pay them much less to help them to arrest anyone they want.

No, they can't. You have to be a US citizen to be an IRS agent as they are government employees. Its not a call center or something. They work in tandem with law enforcement / government officials around the globe, and the US doesn't pay them for that. Like I said earlier, extradition treaties are a two-way street: if Spain requested a known criminal living in the US to be extradited, the US would help them with that as well.

No need to spend so much money for traveling as person being arrested is going to be held in foreign prison first

Its far more complicated than that.

like Roger is held in the same prison like John McAfee was... what a ''coincidence''.

Well they both went to Spain.

[DaveF]

But yep, taxes and all the laws regarding them are indeed crazy in the US.  However, in other countries the actual tax rates are even higher (though I don't know how complex the laws are, or how fucking hard they make it for the average person to file their taxes without resorting to expensive software or hiring an accountant).  I don't think the IRS is looking to put people in jail necessarily, but they just make doing your taxes unnecessarily difficult/costly as I just said.  The amount of money involved in this case is huge, but for "little people" who owe back taxes or get caught up in tax issues, the IRS usually settles with them in the form of a fine, penalties, whatever and they don't end up in prison.

For 99%+ of the population of the US income taxes (the IRS) are actually easy. It's just that most people get caught up in the 'you need to have an accountant' or the 'you need a tax professional' For under $50 you can get software that will do it all for you. Even moderately complex things like crypto trading.

As for not paying your taxes most of the time there is no penalty if you don't not pay on a regular basis. Keep it up and they will nail you. Mess up here and there and you will own whatever you owe + interest. The flip side is also true, if you mess up and the government owes you money you get (minimal) interest.

Yes you can always get 'that guy' who works for the IRS who wants to nail you to the wall. But for the most part it's not that bad.

Stale / local / sales tax / property tax and all those other things are different but not really part of this discussion.

-Dave

[Easteregg69]

Robot. Please open the hatch.

You tell that Jesus to stay out of stable coins.

Use it on spending. Not speculation. New lead. You get him and SBF out of jail or be the next.

Sit down strike. Cheers. Arhh-man. It's about building an open jail.

But yep, taxes and all the laws regarding them are indeed crazy in the US.  However, in other countries the actual tax rates are even higher (though I don't know how complex the laws are, or how fucking hard they make it for the average person to file their taxes without resorting to expensive software or hiring an accountant).  I don't think the IRS is looking to put people in jail necessarily, but they just make doing your taxes unnecessarily difficult/costly as I just said.  The amount of money involved in this case is huge, but for "little people" who owe back taxes or get caught up in tax issues, the IRS usually settles with them in the form of a fine, penalties, whatever and they don't end up in prison.

For 99%+ of the population of the US income taxes (the IRS) are actually easy. It's just that most people get caught up in the 'you need to have an accountant' or the 'you need a tax professional' For under $50 you can get software that will do it all for you. Even moderately complex things like crypto trading.

As for not paying your taxes most of the time there is no penalty if you don't not pay on a regular basis. Keep it up and they will nail you. Mess up here and there and you will own whatever you owe + interest. The flip side is also true, if you mess up and the government owes you money you get (minimal) interest.

Yes you can always get 'that guy' who works for the IRS who wants to nail you to the wall. But for the most part it's not that bad.

Stale / local / sales tax / property tax and all those other things are different but not really part of this discussion.

-Dave

Hey man. You treat the money like it was your own and everything will be fine.

Thomas.

[pawanjain]

If Roger Ver has indeed evaded tax then he would pay his punishment for what he has done.
If they are just setting him up and arresting him, even in that case I don't feel bad about it because of the bad things he has done in the past.
A lot of people have suffered a lot because of him and so he should be punished anyway.

[Ale88]

The Uniited States tax laws are insane. Despite several attempts to try and wrap my head around it, I hit a brick wall every time. It seems like a design intended to indict people rather than make the process easier for them, you have to figure out what to do and when to do it, otherwise you'll face prosecution.

Let's see as more details unfold regarding this case.

- Jay -

i thought it was just a proposal still, they must have approved the bill on Sunday night session.
last news i heard it was 25% for unrealized gains so there it goes. it's official and Ver is the first to be set as an example. just look at how much effort he made to the extent of renouncing his U.S. citizenship but seems like he will be expatriated to pay.  

not sure if he knows that he is required to report to the IRS even when he isn't a US citizen anymore. all the troubles seem nothing has changed. feel sorry for him. it's their law though.

I really don't understand one thing: he made all these efforts, like you say, to renounce to his American citizenship because of tax reasons, I understand it, it makes sense, but then why would you keep your American companies, so you are still tied to the US anyway, and, especially, why do you lie on the tax returns? A guy like Roger Ver was probably already flagged for different reasons, did he really didn't think that the IRS would find out? We are talking about huge numbers, this is not the average Joe trying to save a couple of hundred bucks. I really don't get it.

[tread93]

The Uniited States tax laws are insane. Despite several attempts to try and wrap my head around it, I hit a brick wall every time. It seems like a design intended to indict people rather than make the process easier for them, you have to figure out what to do and when to do it, otherwise you'll face prosecution.

I just stumbled across this thread, and *wow* I'm blown away at the charges but somehow not entirely surprised by the alleged behavior on the part of Ver.  I'd no clue that he'd become an ex-pat, either.

But yep, taxes and all the laws regarding them are indeed crazy in the US.  However, in other countries the actual tax rates are even higher (though I don't know how complex the laws are, or how fucking hard they make it for the average person to file their taxes without resorting to expensive software or hiring an accountant).  I don't think the IRS is looking to put people in jail necessarily, but they just make doing your taxes unnecessarily difficult/costly as I just said.  The amount of money involved in this case is huge, but for "little people" who owe back taxes or get caught up in tax issues, the IRS usually settles with them in the form of a fine, penalties, whatever and they don't end up in prison.

Most crypto rich people wanted to show off, wanted to be famous and now they are paying the price for their stupidity.

No offense to the younger generation, but that has a lot to do with immaturity in a lot of cases--Roger Ver is an exception if he flaunted his wealth, but I have heard tell of a lot of young, crypto-wealthy people making it known on social media what their financial situation is, how rich they are, and even if they didn't get in trouble with the IRS, they got robbed.  Plus even if Ver weren't vocal about his wealth, I'm sure the IRS would have had its eyes on him anyway and they've got enough investigative power such that they don't need to resort to following his escapades online, you know?

I had the same reaction & also didn't know that he was an ex-pat. How could you blame him though? With the current state of affairs in the US becoming an ex-pat and paying your exit tax for a guy like Ver seems like it would be a good idea. He would have been much better off making his new residence in Puerto Rico & then just traveling back and forth in between the islands of the caribbean, I mean he has the money to do so. Its just wild to me that he went so far as to gtfo of america & pull that expat card. In this case his very desire to become free from the bondage of US taxation has become his very demise! Pity really. I hope that he fares well with I mean everyone is innocent until proven guilty but Ver's chips seem to be stacked against him in this scenario...

[DaveF]

The Uniited States tax laws are insane. Despite several attempts to try and wrap my head around it, I hit a brick wall every time. It seems like a design intended to indict people rather than make the process easier for them, you have to figure out what to do and when to do it, otherwise you'll face prosecution.

Let's see as more details unfold regarding this case.

- Jay -

i thought it was just a proposal still, they must have approved the bill on Sunday night session.
last news i heard it was 25% for unrealized gains so there it goes. it's official and Ver is the first to be set as an example. just look at how much effort he made to the extent of renouncing his U.S. citizenship but seems like he will be expatriated to pay.  

not sure if he knows that he is required to report to the IRS even when he isn't a US citizen anymore. all the troubles seem nothing has changed. feel sorry for him. it's their law though.

I really don't understand one thing: he made all these efforts, like you say, to renounce to his American citizenship because of tax reasons, I understand it, it makes sense, but then why would you keep your American companies, so you are still tied to the US anyway, and, especially, why do you lie on the tax returns? A guy like Roger Ver was probably already flagged for different reasons, did he really didn't think that the IRS would find out? We are talking about huge numbers, this is not the average Joe trying to save a couple of hundred bucks. I really don't get it.

It's not even American companies it's any money earned in the US. If you are from someplace else and go to Vegas and win a jackpot that requires a W2-G (tax form for gambling winnings) casinos will withhold a percentage of your winnings and then you have to file a tax return to get them back. There are tons of rules around it but more or less that is how it goes. Same thing if I go to other countries and earn money there I have to pay the taxes there.

-Dave

[shield132]

I never liked Roger, especially after that video where he showed us the finger, but what amazes me is that he sold so many BTC for less than $1k - that's one.

That doesn't amaze me, no one has ever thought that Bitcoin would reach 70K. I remember how 1K was considered as something unimaginable.

I would not defend Roger in any matter, but this is just another confirmation of why anonymity is important.

Roger doesn't need defend, he is a liar, he lied to the people, he lied to the US government and now he got arrested. It's all fair. I think he should have been arrested years ago when he was trying (still tries) to lie to people and make them invest in Bitcoin Cash instead of Bitcoin.

But yep, taxes and all the laws regarding them are indeed crazy in the US.  However, in other countries the actual tax rates are even higher (though I don't know how complex the laws are, or how fucking hard they make it for the average person to file their taxes without resorting to expensive software or hiring an accountant).  I don't think the IRS is looking to put people in jail necessarily, but they just make doing your taxes unnecessarily difficult/costly as I just said.  The amount of money involved in this case is huge, but for "little people" who owe back taxes or get caught up in tax issues, the IRS usually settles with them in the form of a fine, penalties, whatever and they don't end up in prison.

It seems that I live in heaven, self-employed people don't pay taxes, renters don't pay taxes, and e-commerce owners don't pay taxes. Only those who are officially employed pay taxes.

Well they both went to Spain.

Lesson, never go to Spain.

For 99%+ of the population of the US income taxes (the IRS) are actually easy. It's just that most people get caught up in the 'you need to have an accountant' or the 'you need a tax professional' For under $50 you can get software that will do it all for you. Even moderately complex things like crypto trading.

As for not paying your taxes most of the time there is no penalty if you don't not pay on a regular basis. Keep it up and they will nail you. Mess up here and there and you will own whatever you owe + interest. The flip side is also true, if you mess up and the government owes you money you get (minimal) interest.

Yes you can always get 'that guy' who works for the IRS who wants to nail you to the wall. But for the most part it's not that bad.

Stale / local / sales tax / property tax and all those other things are different but not really part of this discussion.

-Dave

What about illegal migrants? Many people go every day in the USA through Mexico from my country. I mean, literally too many people sell cars or houses just to reach the USA. I know a person who doesn't speak English, works on truck and has no idea about taxes. How is that possible? There are too many people like that from my country. Btw they earn lots of money there.

[mindrust]

Well they both went to Spain.

Lesson, never go to Spain.

Never go to any of the US-allied countries if you owe tax money to the US. The outcome wouldn't have been any different if he had visited Portugal or Germany instead of Spain. They caught the btc-e CEO in which country? Greece? They can get you anywhere unless you are in Russia/China.

The better solution is: don't get indebted to the US.

Al Capone couldn't get away, McAfee couldn't get away. You won't get away too.

[Abiky]

Never go to any of the US-allied countries if you owe tax money to the US. The outcome wouldn't have been any different if he had visited Portugal or Germany instead of Spain. They caught the btc-e CEO in which country? Greece? They can get you anywhere unless you are in Russia/China.

The better solution is: don't get indebted to the US.

Al Capone couldn't get away, McAfee couldn't get away. You won't get away too.

Taxes are taxes. We should do our duty to pay them, even if we don't like how "unfair" the system is. What's best? To pay taxes and live "free" (as in liberty)? Or evade them and face serious consequences in the long run?

Roger Ver made a mistake by revealing his identity to the public. If he were anonymous, he'd have a higher chance of not getting arrested. Even so, I believe he should've paid his taxes to settle things once and for all with the IRS. Now he's ultimately paying the price of what he did. Expect to see other crypto players getting arrested by the US government as it expands its outreach. Perhaps, this will force the crypto industry to move somewhere else?

[pooya87]

They can get you anywhere unless you are in Russia/China.

Most of the world has no "extradition treaties" with United States so it is not just Russia/China. They can be seen in the image below (grey countries) but things may not be that simple.

You have to remember that a lot of these countries (like Russia and China that you mentioned) cooperate with Interpol and will hand over criminals if there is a red notice issue on them.
I don't know if tax evasion would be a case for cooperation but a lot of other crimes (like maybe btc-e case) would.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

As far as I can see he logged on to the forum yesterday, which I find laughable. He's in jail and has access to the internet? I hope it's somehow controlled for a very limited time per day like the time you're allowed to make a phone call. Mostly because crimes can be committed over the internet. If you are deprived of physical freedom you should be deprived of freedom in cyberspace.

[mindrust]

Never go to any of the US-allied countries if you owe tax money to the US. The outcome wouldn't have been any different if he had visited Portugal or Germany instead of Spain. They caught the btc-e CEO in which country? Greece? They can get you anywhere unless you are in Russia/China.

The better solution is: don't get indebted to the US.

Al Capone couldn't get away, McAfee couldn't get away. You won't get away too.

Taxes are taxes. We should do our duty to pay them, even if we don't like how "unfair" the system is. What's best? To pay taxes and live "free" (as in liberty)? Or evade them and face serious consequences in the long run?

Roger Ver made a mistake by revealing his identity to the public. If he were anonymous, he'd have a higher chance of not getting arrested. Even so, I believe he should've paid his taxes to settle things once and for all with the IRS. Now he's ultimately paying the price of what he did. Expect to see other crypto players getting arrested by the US government as it expands its outreach. Perhaps, this will force the crypto industry to move somewhere else?

The problem is, people didn’t know what to do with their gains on bitcoin back in the day. We are talking about the 2013-2014 era if I am not mistaken. During those years, what was the US’ position on bitcoin? Most legal authorities didn’t know what to do with it. Coinbase (the exchange) was only 1 year old. Bitcoin itself was 5 years old. Let alone the taxman, nobody really knew shit.

I am pretty sure many US citizens didn’t pay shit from the crypto capital gains they have made 10 years ago. Somehow I feel like they hand picked Roger. Maybe it is because he was an easy target since he have lots of money.

A few years ago I remember that Peter Schiff also got into trouble with the IRS but unlike Roger, Peter knows the tax shit very well since his father died in prison for evading taxes. So he actually got an apology from the IRS in the end because there was no wrongdoing.

[electronicash]

As far as I can see he logged on to the forum yesterday, which I find laughable. He's in jail and has access to the internet? I hope it's somehow controlled for a very limited time per day like the time you're allowed to make a phone call. Mostly because crimes can be committed over the internet. If you are deprived of physical freedom you should be deprived of freedom in cyberspace.

Last Active:   May 24, 2024, 02:56:59 PM

that's interesting. why of all days he ever logged in bitcointalk.  he has been disliked in the forum since he tried forking. now that he is in prison he suddenly tried logging in. someone must have accessed his account, i think Theymos should ban that account for now because someone else is controlling it.

IRS will look into Ver including those forked coins he got.