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Author Topic: Are no-KYC services banned?  (Read 843 times)
LoyceV
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May 10, 2024, 06:45:03 AM
Merited by d5000 (2)
 #41

If this forum bans all non-KYC exchanges I guarantee you that members are going to be doing a 180 and praising once-reviled exchanges like Binance and Coinbase and stuff.
Only if they start a signature campaign here, which I don't expect.

Whether you like it or not, when you talk about a mixing service, you automatically mean it as being used to move money obtained illegally, in order to lose track of it. Therefore, even if our use is not for this purpose, this is the tag that these services have before the authorities.
The Dutch authorities disagree with you:

that is the future and it will go back to a paper bag with cash in it when you want to move wealth on the sneak.
That's another thing they're slowly banning. The maximum amount you're allowed to pay in cash gets lower and lower. That's going to stop honest people, while criminals are breaking the law already.

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May 10, 2024, 07:00:38 AM
 #42

The service wasn’t very subtle about what they were trying to accomplish. This is what it said in their ANN thread:

We get your dirty coins and give you clean coins. don't get me wrong, this is not a mixer. When you use our service you don't need to be worry about any blocking funds or
anything else, cause you will get clean coins from users which use legal exchanges.

Being a non-KYC exchange isn’t the problem, there are still a few services like that which are currently running campaigns. The MrStork account showed up around the time of the mixer ban, prior to that they don’t seem to have any online presence. It almost appears as if this exchange service was created solely for the purpose of bypassing the mixer ban.

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NotATether
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May 10, 2024, 08:30:39 AM
Merited by PowerGlove (1)
 #43

Whether you like it or not, when you talk about a mixing service, you automatically mean it as being used to move money obtained illegally, in order to lose track of it. Therefore, even if our use is not for this purpose, this is the tag that these services have before the authorities.
The Dutch authorities disagree with you:

Fun fact: Chain analysis bots have a separate category for "mixer" which they automatically classify as high-risk because they would otherwise have to, er, break CoinJoin, which we know they can't do. This is in addition to the other categories they have like gambling (??), sanctions evasion, government action.

I saw a stat on one homepage saying one of four wallets is suspicious.

If everyone were to use a mixer, it would break the model and make it 100% of funds being suspicious (therefore they cannot be suspicious) and it would force them to actually nab the criminals before they send them to a mixer.

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May 10, 2024, 07:16:51 PM
Merited by LoyceV (4)
 #44

Whether you like it or not, when you talk about a mixing service, you automatically mean it as being used to move money obtained illegally, in order to lose track of it. Therefore, even if our use is not for this purpose, this is the tag that these services have before the authorities.
The Dutch authorities disagree with you:

Yes it is true. It all depends on how it is used.

That's why I compared the current situation of mixes to torrent sites. Are they illegal? No. Can they be used? Yes. Could they contain illegal content? Yes. Does everyone use it for this purpose? No.

In the end, it all comes down to how the person will use the service and how the service is set up. And this is what can still be difficult to perceive in current mixes.

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examplens
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May 10, 2024, 08:46:48 PM
 #45


Unfortunately, their opinion is just as important as the opinion of anyone here on the forum. We all know where these crazy rules come from, it's just a matter of how we got there
https://cryptodaily.co.uk/news-in-crypto/observers:u-s-members-of-congress-propose-two-year-ban-on-crypto-mixers

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May 10, 2024, 09:15:50 PM
 #46

Well all stuff aside, I have to admit that "tor-only", "non-kyc" and indirect mixing service seems quite shady from my perspective as a normal user of other exchanges.
I got to admit I miss times where most of the services did not require KYC to operate, but this three characteristics together doesn't feel quite safe to me  Roll Eyes
LoyceV
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May 11, 2024, 07:27:02 AM
 #47

Unfortunately, their opinion is just as important as the opinion of anyone here on the forum.
For most people, you're right. But as long as I live in this country, the opinion of the Dutch authorities matters (whether I like it or not).

Quote
We all know where these crazy rules come from, it's just a matter of how we got there
https://cryptodaily.co.uk/news-in-crypto/observers:u-s-members-of-congress-propose-two-year-ban-on-crypto-mixers
I'm curious why they're proposing a ban for only two years, instead of forever.

NotATether
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May 11, 2024, 07:34:57 AM
 #48

Quote
We all know where these crazy rules come from, it's just a matter of how we got there
https://cryptodaily.co.uk/news-in-crypto/observers:u-s-members-of-congress-propose-two-year-ban-on-crypto-mixers
I'm curious why they're proposing a ban for only two years, instead of forever.

Because they want to create the illusion that they are doing something productive, but we all know that no investigation or work group will ever happen into them.

This is a bill by democrats. If they had proposed a law to stop anonymous payments to exchanges forever, it would've been shot down by republicans.

Why oh why has Bitcoin become partisan?

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May 11, 2024, 01:22:40 PM
 #49

Why oh why has Bitcoin become partisan?

Because it's money, and money can be used as a form of control.  How to control people is always a partisan issue.  Much the the political manoeuvring at the moment is 'nudge theory'.  Doing just enough to make people do what the authorities want.  And people usually fall for that, so it will probably work unless we're actively opposing it.

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May 11, 2024, 02:43:12 PM
 #50

The service wasn’t very subtle about what they were trying to accomplish. This is what it said in their ANN thread:

We get your dirty coins and give you clean coins. don't get me wrong, this is not a mixer. When you use our service you don't need to be worry about any blocking funds or
anything else, cause you will get clean coins from users which use legal exchanges.

Lmao.  "We get your coins, we give you other users' coins, but please don't mistake us for a mixer".  Right, got it.   Cheesy 

This is a bill by democrats. If they had proposed a law to stop anonymous payments to exchanges forever, it would've been shot down by republicans.

Democrats, Republicans, they're just two sides of the same coin when it comes to government.  They both crave control, and given that only a small minority of their constituents prioritizes privacy, they'll recklessly implement Know Your Customer regulations without hesitation. 

And people usually fall for that, so it will probably work unless we're actively opposing it.

What strategies do you propose for resisting it?  Because from what I see, there aren't any.  We're simply a minority, and our strengths lie in writing and developing software, which is indeed powerful, but it doesn't entirely solve the problem. 

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May 11, 2024, 03:01:59 PM
Merited by PowerGlove (1)
 #51

And people usually fall for that, so it will probably work unless we're actively opposing it.

What strategies do you propose for resisting it?  Because from what I see, there aren't any.  We're simply a minority, and our strengths lie in writing and developing software, which is indeed powerful, but it doesn't entirely solve the problem. 

Mainly just point out to people when they're sleepwalking into subservience.  The path of least resistance is often the one they want you to follow.  Small acts of defiance can be powerful and limit the potential of nudge theory.  If people don't allow themselves to be manipulated, they're more difficult to control.  Don't sign over your personal details for KYC.  Don't acknowledge "taint" (and avoid using services which do).  Don't give up ownership for the sake of convenience.  Then they can't control you.

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May 11, 2024, 04:52:33 PM
 #52

Don't sign over your personal details for KYC.  Don't acknowledge "taint" (and avoid using services which do).  Don't give up ownership for the sake of convenience.  Then they can't control you.

Alright, I'm already doing all of these, including pointing out people of their sleepwalking towards the edge of the cliff, but I still don't see sufficient progress.  Particularly in an era where slight convenience is often traded for privacy, it is extremely difficult to convince people about adopting this approach.  And, to be frank, I do not judge them; I've dedicated countless hours to grasping the importance of these ideas and practices myself.  It would be unfair to expect someone else to be convinced without undergoing the same level of study.  And truth be told, most won't. 

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May 11, 2024, 05:22:21 PM
 #53

it is extremely difficult to convince people about adopting this approach. 
(...)
And truth be told, most won't. 

True enough, sadly.  And most will pay the price in the end.  But as long as enough of us persist in doing things the right way, some will still have a chance at freedom.

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Medusah
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May 11, 2024, 05:35:59 PM
 #54

True enough, sadly.  And most will pay the price in the end.  But as long as enough of us persist in doing things the right way, some will still have a chance at freedom.

It's melancholic.  This journey has freed my spirit, yet I can't help but be frustrated by this realization.  It's human to feel that way, I guess. 

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Mr.right85
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May 11, 2024, 08:29:05 PM
 #55

As far as I know there's no official announcement of no-KYC services being banned in this forum. But perhaps it's coming?

It was not allowed for having too many similarities with a mixing service, the non-kyc part was not the issue.
My first thought when I noticed that to have been the case, am sure there are no such ban in place for exchanger services except it’s got some mixing qualities. No KYC services are some of the vitals in the cryptospace.

The service wasn’t very subtle about what they were trying to accomplish. This is what it said in their ANN thread:

We get your dirty coins and give you clean coins. don't get me wrong, this is not a mixer. When you use our service you don't need to be worry about any blocking funds or
anything else, cause you will get clean coins from users which use legal exchanges.

Lmao.  "We get your coins, we give you other users' coins, but please don't mistake us for a mixer".  Right, got it.   Cheesy 
Our, it ain’t mixing because none of your coins does eventually gets back to you or should I say, it’s an exchange of other users coins for yours? Bro, that’s mixing. That’s the whole idea about mixing, not having your coins getting back to you, getting off those traces. It doesn’t matter how or what process in which this is archived, it’s still mixing.

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joker_josue
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May 12, 2024, 07:05:33 AM
 #56

And people usually fall for that, so it will probably work unless we're actively opposing it.

What strategies do you propose for resisting it?  Because from what I see, there aren't any.  We're simply a minority, and our strengths lie in writing and developing software, which is indeed powerful, but it doesn't entirely solve the problem.  


If there is no strategy yet, it is because one has not yet been achieved structurally.

I return to the torrent examples. In the 2000s they were heavily persecuted by the authorities, with dozens of people arrested for running torrent sites. But they did not disappear and today they continue to operate. Did the authorities simply stop worrying? Certainly not. It is true that the mode of consumption has changed, but even so, torrent sites have managed to structure themselves in a way that reduces or makes it more difficult to experience problems.

Something similar has to happen with mixers. It is true that in many cases, mixers have a direct impact on governments, due to tax avoidance. And this leads to them being much more active in this chase than they were with torrents. But, as long as mixes structurally cannot overcome these challenges, they will continue to have several problems.

Just like torrent, which is shared by users and not torrent sites, something similar needs to happen with mixers. Whether this is technically possible, I don't know. But, I believe that the solution goes this way.

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.BLACKJACK ♠ FUN.
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Medusah
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May 12, 2024, 08:19:25 PM
 #57

Something similar has to happen with mixers. It is true that in many cases, mixers have a direct impact on governments, due to tax avoidance.

They have a direct impact, because they go against their mass surveillance plans.  However, even if their primary concern is taxation, what measures can they take against decentralized mixers like Monero?  Shutting them down is unfeasible, and there's always the option of exchanging Bitcoin for Monero decentralized.  Essentially, they are inadvertently driving us towards adopting unstoppable methods to achieve the same objectives, perhaps even more efficiently than before.

Would that line of thinking make sense from a governmental perspective? 

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LoyceV
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May 13, 2024, 09:23:24 AM
 #58

decentralized mixers like Monero?
Monero is not a mixer.

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May 13, 2024, 06:48:53 PM
 #59

I return to the torrent examples. In the 2000s they were heavily persecuted by the authorities, with dozens of people arrested for running torrent sites. But they did not disappear and today they continue to operate. Did the authorities simply stop worrying? Certainly not. It is true that the mode of consumption has changed, but even so, torrent sites have managed to structure themselves in a way that reduces or makes it more difficult to experience problems.
Torrents are not used as money, that is a big difference Wink
And it is very hard for torrent files to be taken down, and whenever some website that is hosting torrents gets taken down they just create another one.
This can't be compared with mixers exactly since there are more centralization there, but there is always a chance that someone creates more decentralized way of improving privacy on bitcoin.
I don't have anything against kyc if it is optional and not mandatory for everything we do on internet.


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joker_josue
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May 13, 2024, 07:25:26 PM
 #60

Torrents are not used as money, that is a big difference Wink
And it is very hard for torrent files to be taken down, and whenever some website that is hosting torrents gets taken down they just create another one.
This can't be compared with mixers exactly since there are more centralization there, but there is always a chance that someone creates more decentralized way of improving privacy on bitcoin.
I don't have anything against kyc if it is optional and not mandatory for everything we do on internet.

Yes it is true. And any action that arises always requires a complaint or legal action between the copyright holder and the torrent platform.

In the case of mixes, it is the authorities themselves who are interested in acting and do not need a request from third parties to act. So, the authorities take the initiative to act against the mix, as this impacts much more on the government's coffers than copyright.

I just make this comparison, to understand more or less what is involved and what we are talking about. This "war" will probably take much longer than that of torrents, but I also believe that solutions will emerge that minimize this impact.


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.BLACKJACK ♠ FUN.
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