Israel in the circle of political absurdity

[Alik Bahshi]

The point is not that Jews continued to live after the Jewish state, which existed for a very short time by historical standards, but that the Jewish state disappeared. Yes, Jews continued to live in the Middle East among other peoples, but did not have a state, however, there were many peoples living in subsequent empires that also did not have their own state, the most numerous of them, for example, the Kurds. And if we turn to the historical past, then the Persians and Italians have much more rights to the territory of Palestine than the Jews.

jews had a state, they had judea.. which they merged with the isrealites to expand the kingdom if isreal into what is now internationally recognised as isreal. it was not a conquer, it was a agreement/evolution, done thousands of years ago

  And who denies that the Jewish state existed, but it existed for a much shorter historical period than other states in the same territory, and the Jews were not the first of the peoples to live in Palestine. You ignore historical facts, but no matter how much you would like to, the fact remains a fact.

[franky1]

 And who denies that the Jewish state existed, but it existed for a much shorter historical period than other states in the same territory, and the Jews were not the first of the peoples to live in Palestine. You ignore historical facts, but no matter how much you would like to, the fact remains a fact.

you keep saying "palestiine" pretending that palestine had long history of from the ricer to the sea..
it has not been palestine for 70+ years.. and was not palestine before 1920

it was only in name only seen as palestine by british mandate, not international recognition as state
the rest of the world knew the long history of judea and isreal.

palestine had the shortest brand recognition of the middle east. and thats why there is so much conflict now. they feel unseen and undeclared

jews lived throughout history of multiple millenia, even to this day. even through all the other conquests and rebranding of empires and territory
palestine was just a brand game/empty gesture/temporary gift played by the british to end the ottomans

the names of filistia->philistia->palestine.. is mainly and merely of the gaza territory if you wish to talk of long history.. NOT of the "from river to sea" canaan wide region

you are trying too hard to grab onto the ~25year british mandate recognition.. to exaggerate it to pretend the brand/name/word existed for centruries.. it didnt
you are trying too hard to grab onto the ~25year british mandate recognition.. to exaggerate it to pretend the brand/name/word as a state in modern times of the last 70 years

..

im british.. but atleast i can admit to the games and empty promises and tricks to play different sides my countries historic government/empire played to defeat the ottomans..
can you admit that palestine was not some centuries long empire from the river to the sea, and instead just a britsh brand of empty promise that only lasted a quarter of a century.. and thats why there are conflicts today as arabs are angry that the promises didnt bear fruit or last long

even during 1922-1948 there was no "palestinian government".. it was governed by britain under the league of nations
name me one prime minister/president of your hapless claim of "palestine"('from river to sea') that was palestinian

understand that your hapless claims of "palestine"(from river to the sea) was NEVER an actual independent state with its own government
it was a empty brand gesture of temporary naming ceremony by the brits

[Alik Bahshi]

 And who denies that the Jewish state existed, but it existed for a much shorter historical period than other states in the same territory, and the Jews were not the first of the peoples to live in Palestine. You ignore historical facts, but no matter how much you would like to, the fact remains a fact.

you keep saying "palestiine" pretending that palestine had long history of from the ricer to the sea..
it has not been palestine for 70+ years.. and was not palestine before 1920

it was only in name only seen as palestine by british mandate, not international recognition as state
the rest of the world knew the long history of judea and isreal.

palestine had the shortest brand recognition of the middle east. and thats why there is so much conflict now. they feel unseen and undeclared

jews lived throughout history of multiple millenia, even to this day. even through all the other conquests and rebranding of empires and territory
palestine was just a brand game/empty gesture/temporary gift played by the british to end the ottomans

the names of filistia->philistia->palestine.. is mainly and merely of the gaza territory if you wish to talk of long history.. NOT of the "from river to sea" canaan wide region

you are trying too hard to grab onto the ~25year british mandate recognition.. to exaggerate it to pretend the brand/name/word existed for centruries.. it didnt
you are trying too hard to grab onto the ~25year british mandate recognition.. to exaggerate it to pretend the brand/name/word as a state in modern times of the last 70 years

..

im british.. but atleast i can admit to the games and empty promises and tricks to play different sides my countries historic government/empire played to defeat the ottomans..
can you admit that palestine was not some centuries long empire from the river to the sea, and instead just a britsh brand of empty promise that only lasted a quarter of a century.. and thats why there are conflicts today as arabs are angry that the promises didnt bear fruit or last long

even during 1922-1948 there was no "palestinian government".. it was governed by britain under the league of nations
name me one prime minister/president of your hapless claim of "palestine"('from river to sea') that was palestinian

understand that your hapless claims of "palestine"(from river to the sea) was NEVER an actual independent state with its own government
it was a empty brand gesture of temporary naming ceremony by the brits

You write that Jews lived in Palestine for thousands of years. But Jews lived in other countries for thousands of years. Living and having a state are different things. The Gypsies are also an ancient people, but they did not have their own state. Jews in Palestine had their own state for only 300 years, which is significantly less than the Arabs from 638 to 1258 as part of the Arab Caliphate, which ousted Byzantium from the Middle East.

[franky1]

You write that Jews lived in Palestine for thousands of years. But Jews lived in other countries for thousands of years. Living and having a state are different things. The Gypsies are also an ancient people, but they did not have their own state. Jews in Palestine had their own state for only 300 years, which is significantly less than the Arabs from 638 to 1258 as part of the Arab Caliphate, which ousted Byzantium from the Middle East.

"jews in palestine"?? jews were not in palestine.. the word palestine is not some 300, 638 to 1258 year old name of any place
the evolution of the word palestine is not even in older devolved words defining the area you think it is
jews never lived in palestine for 300 years. they lived in the canaan region/middle east region known alot longer as isreal/juea for more then 300 years

so in your mind. by using your own mind against you.. arabs already have multiple states in the middle east, and live in multiple countries. .. ok job done arabs in gaza and westbank already have multiple places to call their own.. ok. problem solved... you said it you condone that palestinians have another place to go where arabs already are.. right?

if your view is certain groups of jews have other places to go, then so do certain arabs
.. but what you are then digging a hole for you to fall in is certain jews and arabs that have been in a certain place want to be recognised for that certain place because they have historic claim to it

judean isreali jews living in the canaan area have a huge provenance claim to the 'from the land to the sea' claim.. but certain arabs calling themselves palestinians for alot less time only have provenance claims over gaza and a flimsy claim based on settling in jordans capital to then want to claim westbank when they expanded out from philadelphia(amman) to the west side of the river jordan
..
if you wish to try to call the canaan area('from river to sea') known for kingdom of isreal and judea, as 'palestine'.. please please please tell me:
how many palestinian presidents/prime ministers it has/had in recent history or had in older historic history of leading and governing the region('from river to sea') as a palestinian government
how many years have they had a currency of palestinian symbology
what palestinian cultural tradition can you say exists that separates them from other arabs to have them actually be defined as needing a separate state
what palestinian symbology can you say exists that separates them from other arabs to have them actually be defined as needing a separate state
what land claims of 'from river to sea' actually exist historically for more then 300 years for specifically the 'palestinian' settlers of canaan

if you want to make a stand for the relevance of any recognition of "palestine" being more then the gaza/westbank provenance, via religious text, culture, economics, politics, symbols, language, old historic land claim differences compared to other arabs, come on, define it. make your stand.. help your brethren out by giving the significant details that define them
..

im not against palestinians in any way. my issues are with the jihadi terror group called hamas whom want genocide with their slogan of "death to isreal, death to america" which funnily enough is hamas recognising isreal as a state

but when it comes to the peaceful palestinians. they really need to self organise. create a proper civilian political party to rival hamas, form a committee/cabinet to start creating unique significant identity for themselves that also separate themselves from being 'just arabs' which should just settle in other countries(your mindset for jews)

put it this way. in the UK we have scotland, wales, england. they all have their separate features, languages, symbols, flags, cultures, etc..
zooming in closer. each county(shire, constituency, province) identify themselves as different to other counties, for things like tourist recognition and cultural heritage historical recognition. something that sets them apart from other counties, with their own micro cultures for instance essex is different than cornwall, greater manchester is different then both of those

arabs identifying themselves as palestinians really need to culture develop their identity to get real recognition.. im all for it.. but they also need to understand their land claims of a state are not that of "from river to sea"

heck. they can even use the french system for statehood recognition and land claim
imagine gaza as the main homeland of palestine much like france is the mainland of the french.. and then have westbank co-mingling of isreali-palestinians much like  canada being the co-mingling of french-canadians

[Alik Bahshi]

You write that Jews lived in Palestine for thousands of years. But Jews lived in other countries for thousands of years. Living and having a state are different things. The Gypsies are also an ancient people, but they did not have their own state. Jews in Palestine had their own state for only 300 years, which is significantly less than the Arabs from 638 to 1258 as part of the Arab Caliphate, which ousted Byzantium from the Middle East.

"jews in palestine"?? jews were not in palestine.. the word palestine is not some 300, 638 to 1258 year old name of any place
the evolution of the word palestine is not even older words that define the area you think it is
jews never lived in palestine for 300 years. they lived in the canaan region/middle east region known alot longer as isreal for more then 300 years

If, as you claim, the Jews did not live in the territory of Palestine, then why do they lay claim to the lands of Palestine.
 

[franky1]

You write that Jews lived in Palestine for thousands of years. But Jews lived in other countries for thousands of years. Living and having a state are different things. The Gypsies are also an ancient people, but they did not have their own state. Jews in Palestine had their own state for only 300 years, which is significantly less than the Arabs from 638 to 1258 as part of the Arab Caliphate, which ousted Byzantium from the Middle East.

"jews in palestine"?? jews were not in palestine.. the word palestine is not some 300, 638 to 1258 year old name of any place
the evolution of the word palestine is not even older words that define the area you think it is
jews never lived in palestine for 300 years. they lived in the canaan region/middle east region known alot longer as isreal for more then 300 years

If, as you claim, the Jews did not live in the territory of Palestine, then why do they lay claim to the lands of Palestine.

first of all, they do not lay claim. they already claimed it. the pursuit of zion was over long ago. its done.

also you keep using the word "palestine" incorrectly to define the land mass
the area/region/territory which jews lived in in the middle east in the canaan region in the modern isreal and ancient lands of isreal/judah have a long history..
.. "palestine" does not have recognition, the word itself is short lived. palestinians never governed "from the river to the sea"(middle east in the canaan region in the modern isreal and ancient lands of isreal/judah)

there is no territory called palestine. just a wish and hope and a misuse of the word. when you can understand this. then you can understand the tensions of the middle eastern fights. the territorial squabbles. .. if it was already a large arabian state from the river to the sea. they would already have a prime minister or president governing the region from the river to the sea.. but they dont. so its not 'palestine' nor ever was, because they never had a palestinian president/prime minister

what you have to realise is the british empire, which became league of nations, which then become the united nations made promises BOTH to isreali-jews and arabs..
the isreali-jews succeeded and got their wish. the arabs still wait and hope and got angry.

...
just admit it..
by the way you use certain words you are not actually interested in having palestinians recognised as a separate faction/clan/tribe of arabs with their own identity/culture that are different to other arabs, so that palestinians can be recognised and have their own state..
.. what you are actually interested in is the tehran/hamas regime of taking over all of the middle east to be arabian/persian empire revival, eradicating the jews from the region, removing all notion/concept that the middle east had any history for the jews

[G.Seed]

What has Israel don again?

They steal lands, rape, torture and kill civilians for decades.
They also blackmail western politicians (Epstein).
They also steal western countries money.

With all these troubles on Earth and the political sponsored Hamas

Israël sponsored Hamas to have a valid pretext to continue to extend with US money.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/

ISIS to kill and shared the blood of innocent children and families. What has the world said about that?

Who lied about Sadam Hussein weapons that did not exist ? Who killed 1 million iraki people, who helped ISIS ?
ISIS never attacks Israël, ISIS attacked the Hezbollah.

When you started a fight, you should be prepared to endure the circumstances that come with it. This is Karma counts!

Palestinians did not start anything, Israël kills them and steal their lands for decades.
Now you have snipers near water supplies to be sure to heashot children with no risk.
Are you masturbating right now reading that ?

You write that Jews lived in Palestine for thousands of years. But Jews lived in other countries for thousands of years. Living and having a state are different things. The Gypsies are also an ancient people, but they did not have their own state. Jews in Palestine had their own state for only 300 years, which is significantly less than the Arabs from 638 to 1258 as part of the Arab Caliphate, which ousted Byzantium from the Middle East.

"jews in palestine"?? jews were not in palestine.. the word palestine is not some 300, 638 to 1258 year old name of any place
the evolution of the word palestine is not even older words that define the area you think it is
jews never lived in palestine for 300 years. they lived in the canaan region/middle east region known alot longer as isreal for more then 300 years

If, as you claim, the Jews did not live in the territory of Palestine, then why do they lay claim to the lands of Palestine.

first of all, they do not lay claim. they already claimed it. the pursuit of zion was over long ago. its done.
....

Yes, but you are totally nut with your story of "chosen people", "people of light" fighting "people of darkness". We don't give a shit.

You are starving children so they have to go out of their hideout to get food so you can kill them. You are masturbating looking at palestinian children starving, and we can see this through your words. Don't you think we can't read that. We are human beings.

bla, bla, bla, before Christ, Zion, bla, bla, bla. Don't give a shit.

You are a fucking piece of shit starving children. Everybody sees it, everybody knows it.



[moderator's note: multiple posts have been merged]

[Alik Bahshi]

Yes, but you are totally nut with your story of "chosen people", "people of light" fighting "people of darkness". We don't give a shit.

You are starving children so they have to go out of their hideout to get food so you can kill them. You are masturbating looking at palestinian children starving, and we can see this through your words. Don't you think we can't read that. We are human beings.

bla, bla, bla, before Christ, Zion, bla, bla, bla. Don't give a shit.

You are a fucking piece of shit starving children. Everybody sees it, everybody knows it.



[moderator's note: multiple posts have been merged]

 God created many nations, but for some reason the Jews have appointed themselves chosen and demand on this basis that they be loved, otherwise they are accused of anti-Semitism. By the way, the Jews themselves do not love anyone. All nations are guilty before them. There is not a single nation in the world that the Jews treated with love, at the same time they want love for themselves.

[franky1]

Yes, but you are totally nut with your story of "chosen people", "people of light" fighting "people of darkness". We don't give a shit.

i have never ever even thought anyone is "chosen people"
you can even look at my post history.. the only time anything close to that was said by me is in last few hours responding to your use of the phrase

you are the one obssessed about recognising "chosen people"

you are the one confused. you are the one obssessed with certain buzzwords and slogans whereby it appears you are now having weird conversations in your head thinking you are speaking to other people about words no one else has used in this topic.

i know you want to pretend other people are just NPC's to your game, where you are the only chosen person at the centre of the universe. but im afraid to tell you that you are just one in 8 billion other people... you are not the chosen one either.. no one is

now here is another confusing statement for you to fiddle with in your mind
we are all unique, just like everyone else

no one is chosen, you have to make life work for you, dont cry if people dont recognise you. accept that you dont win every game, every competition, accept your not the star of the show. dont cry when someone else wins the game.. dont deny that others win, instead just learn from all experiences

my view on religion both ancient and modern is this:
all preachers and messengers of a supposed religion are just people that want to lead others and have others follow them. they want to create rules and laws but not be to blame if said rules or law harm or hinder others so they pretend they heard such rule/doctrine or commandment from some mystery thing no one else can see or talk to or touch. in essence old religions are just the old versions of what we now call governments
whereby these days "government" is not a single entity. so there is no single one person you can slap, tickle or punch should you want a rule changed. and instead we have to beleive this "government" entity is doing things in all our interest. they create rule by committee to avoid individual blame/blackmail. whereby said government leaders, emirs, ministers, senators, sultans are making the rules but then pretend to just be representatives/messengers of government

we even see it in bitcoin core. where bitcoin core is the touchless entity no one can blackmail, which governs most of bitcoins rules, where the core devs are the ones coding the rules but then individually pretend they are just contributors.. yet in reality core devs are the bitcoin government and those loyal to core devs that dont want any other implementation being the main source code reference client then form a religious like foundation around it, treating core as the chosen one, where all other implementations need to get REKT off the network

[Alik Bahshi]

Yes, but you are totally nut with your story of "chosen people", "people of light" fighting "people of darkness". We don't give a shit.

You are starving children so they have to go out of their hideout to get food so you can kill them. You are masturbating looking at palestinian children starving, and we can see this through your words. Don't you think we can't read that. We are human beings.

That the Jews consider themselves the chosen people is well illustrated by the UN vote on the issue of recognizing the state of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of countries voted for the state of Palestine, and only the Jews and their sponsor the USA, where there is a strong Jewish lobby, are against the people of Palestine. You like to appeal to the 8 billion people of the planet, so you oppose these 8 billion, thereby emphasizing your chosenness.

[G.Seed]

Yes, but you are totally nut with your story of "chosen people", "people of light" fighting "people of darkness". We don't give a shit.

i have never ever even thought anyone is "chosen people"

So why do you support people that claims to be the "chosen people", the "people of light" fighting the "people of darkness" calling their enemies "human animals" or "rats" if you are an atheist and if you do not think anyone is "chosen people".

Will you answer to this at last ?

[franky1]

Yes, but you are totally nut with your story of "chosen people", "people of light" fighting "people of darkness". We don't give a shit.

i have never ever even thought anyone is "chosen people"

So why do you support people that claims to be the "chosen people", the "people of light" fighting the "people of darkness" calling their enemies "human animals" or "rats" if you are an atheist and if you do not think anyone is "chosen people".

Will you answer to this at last ?

its not about supporting israel.
and i have not spoke about anyone who claims to be "chosen ones".. the word or inclination of the word in this topic or any similar topic on this forum, stemmed from YOUR usage of the word

its about clarifying facts to idiots that are following the pro-hamas anti-isreal propaganda crap
its about fact checking and enlightening idiots that they have fell into a hole of lies, deceit. misinformation by blindly believing the crap they find on social media and then regurgitate it on this forum without thinking or researching

just because i correct pro-hamas idiots and call them out as idiots does not make me default pro-israel either..
its just when talking to pro-hamas idiots about their idiocy, they then think i must be israeli or pro-israel by correcting them,  
fact is they just want to remain ignorant and find any lame excuse to be ignorant by trying to pretend i am only against their idiocy because i must be their opposition.

and again i dont use the terms "chosen people" infact doing a forum search of the term from anyone in relation to biblical chatter/middle east/war. it is very much the pro-hamas regime/propaganda spewing people like you that chant the usual other words like zionist and genocide and such.. are the only ones that first bring the words "chosen one" into a topic. and then me and a couple others then use the word only in response to your usage..

so its you and the ilk like you that are obsessed with "chosen people" wordage

..
as i said before i am not against palestinians.. palestinians do however really need to get their act together, formulate their own peaceful citizen political parties to rival hams, and form some laws, cultural references, symbology and economic plan and have some unique identity that separates them from the other existing arab states so they can actually be recognised as an independent population that needs its own state which is not already covered by other arab states.


when you give yourself a chance to learn and not just regurgitate what you found on social media thats then echo'd in mainstream media. and actully ready to do proper research to understand whats actually going on. you will learn its not a isreal-palestine war. its a IDF-hamas war. whereby palestinians are caught up in the middle..
when you then look at the details of military actions and strategy, and see how hamas vs IDF use different tactics/strategy. whereby israel do send aid do give warnings. but hamas steal aid and dont let people get away from target zones. you soon learn that hamas are not helping the palestinians but causing them to be part of the collateral damage.
when you learn that without hamas and instead a peaceful citizen(non-military) government inplace governing gaza, things will look very different for palestinians.
hamas use and abuse palestinians as human shields and pawns for their war agenda.

[G.Seed]

its not about supporting israel.
and i have not spoke about anyone who claims to be "chosen ones"..

Israël leaders, Israeli people and a lot of jewish people claims to be the chosen ones, the "people of light" fighting the "people of darkness", "human animals", "rats".
And as an atheist, you think you don't have to speak about this.
No you do not want to underline Netanyahu speaking about "Isaiah's prophecy" as an atheist.

It is very strange because these are official facts you cannot deny. They said this openly. And if you really are an atheist, you are not supposed to believe that.

so its you and the ilk like you that are obsessed with "chosen people" wordage

Just answer to this and we will go on another subject.
You can say :
_ Yes it is totally crazy they think they are the "chosen ones", "people of light" fighting "people of darkness", they kill children while talking about "Isaiah's prophecy", thiis looks insane to me, as the atheist brit I am.
Or you can say no :
_ I am fine with that, because I lied to you, I am not atheist, I am actually zionist, you helped me to realize this.

And if you do not want to answer to that, who you are will appear very clearly to everybody.

[franky1]

to clarify once again

no one are/is the "chosen people"
no one was the "chosen people"
no one will be the "chosen people"

YOU however are the one obsessed with bringing up the term..

as for who wants to kill children intentionally and starve population for their own greed and regime.. look towards hamas

zionist is the pursuit of establishing a jewish homeland in what is known as israel, historically known as the kingdom of israel and kingdom of judea
the pursuit is over, the jewish homeland has already been established. there are long long historical references and centuries of jewish settled in the region

zionism is not something unachieved and looking forward. zionism is complete, achieved, settled long ago..  a thing of the past that got settled successfully..
palestine is not a state has had no president/prime minister to claim that palestinians have a homeland over isreal.

palestine only can make their claims over (now known as)gaza and flimsily over the west bank, but more precisely they could claim jordan as a second palestine if they want to make 2 claims

[G.Seed]

to clarify once again

no one are/is the "chosen people"
no one was the "chosen people"
no one will be the "chosen people"

YOU however are the one obsessed with bringing up the term..

You do not clarify anything. You avoid the subject. This is crazy !


Netanyahu said we are "the people of light" they (palestinians) are "the people of darkness"

What is your position about this as a british atheist ?

Yoav Galant talked about palestinian as "human animals"

What is your position about this as a british atheist ?

Netanyahu talked about "Isaiah prophecy"

What is your position about this as a british atheist ?

Very easy questions. Just answer. Easy.

[franky1]

to clarify once again

no one are/is the "chosen people"
no one was the "chosen people"
no one will be the "chosen people"

YOU however are the one obsessed with bringing up the term..

You do not clarify anything. You avoid the subject. This is crazy !


Netanyahu said we are "the people of light" they (palestinians) are "the people of darkness"

What is your position about this as a british atheist ?

Yoav Galant talked about palestinian as "human animals"

What is your position about this as a british atheist ?

Netanyahu talked about "Isaiah prophecy"

What is your position about this as a british atheist ?

Very easy questions. Just answer. Easy.

my view is
no one are/is was nor will be the "people of light" no one are/is was nor will be the "people of darkness" no are/is was nor will be the "human animals"
and as for the "human animal" term you mention.. even people that cosplay/furry community/non-binary/ gender-identify/pronoun utilise to pretend they are human animals are not human animals, they are still human

as for the isaiah prophecy
unless someones death was a mis-diagnoses where it was actually just unconsciousness/locked in syndrome/coma/low heartrate ETC. a (mis-diagnoses that usually gets noticed and corrected not long after).
unless someone shortly after death recovers due to CPR/defibrilators or medical intervention... there is no real 'coming back from the dead' after a certain short period of time.
as for 'reincarnation' or 'second coming' or a 'return' thousands of years later.. no just no

in science, energy does not stop, it just converts/transfers.. but this does not mean it will retain someones consciousness to be rebirthed as another human to have all the memories/ethics of prior form. the cells of the dead would retain the energy as 'potential energy' in the cells/atoms, which then becomes worm food when someone decays in the ground... the worm wont know anything about its foods thoughts/feelings. it just poops out the waste which become dirt which then feeds plants..
the energy transfer is not some reincarnation retaining consciousness/memory.. so no 'rebirth' in the notion/manner thats been insinuated/implied in biblical terms

adding to that
most biblical text and scriptures are not wrote first-hand by self titled messengers/messiahs.. instead they are wrote many years later by people claiming to lay witness to events they write of. but this then makes such initial messages of some entity no one else seen or heard, just be that of unreliable hearsay/myth/artistic narration.
whereby modern biblical collations of such narrations found in books today, are just an income earner for the publishers(religious group and affiliates)/retailers and everyone else inbetween

[G.Seed]

my view is
no one are/is was nor will be the "people of light" no one are/is was nor will be the "people of darkness" no are/is was nor will be the "human animals"

You have just answer to the question "do you think there is/was/wiil be a people of light ?"
Your answer is "no". It is clear. I understand.

But my question is : what is your position about Netanyahu saying he is a part of the "people of light" fighting the "people of darkness" ?

What is your position about Galant calling palestinians "human animals" ?

What is your position about Ayelet Shaked calling palestinian "rats" ?

If Hamas would have called israeli or jews "rats", of course they did not, even if they have been created on that purpose, I am sure I would not have to ask you these questions so many times.