Symmetric Step Trading: Now Closed

[SymStep]

@binderclip: We think that bitcoin investors have become cautious about trusting websites which are easy to make. Now investors demand financial records for working companies and good business plans for starting up companies. For mining companies all is on the blockchain for everyone to see. For investing in our method we think the biggest question is have we explained how it works? Or is there only a black blox that is supposed to make profits? We think many worst investments are only black boxes with pretty websites and no explanation how they really make profits.

[1714071173]

1714071173

[1714071173]

1714071173

[Darkstone2]

Imagine my company ScamInvestments:

I create a trading strategy that sounds good but does not work in practice.
I pull some profit numbers out of thin air.
I create a well written IPO thread that advertises these two points and ask people to invest in me.
When people ask for proof of success, i refuse to give them such thing. Since there is obviously none.
After paying about 3 months or dividends or so, i run with the money. 'my money was on mt. gox/cryptostocks/vicurex' (or any other exchange, there are many to choose from every month).

Also imagine the company FairTrading:

FairTrading spent a lot of time to come up with a strategy that works.
FairTrading creates an very well written IPO thread that advertises this strategy with profit numbers and asks to invest in FairTrading.
When people ask for proof of success, FairTrading refuses to give them any sort of proof.
After a few years the company is still paying out dividends.


Given the track record of securities in this forum, which model seems more likely?

[eltopo]

You want to launch an IPO but you are not able to calculate the internal rate of return for a series of cash flows? 

[SymStep]

When people ask for proof of success, FairTrading refuses to give them any sort of proof.
After a few years the company is still paying out dividends.

I don't understand that you say both "ScamInvestments" and "FairTrading" refuses to give proof of success but you think that "ScamInvestments" applies to our method and "FairTrading" applies to somebody else.

Before you said your trading bot was up 55500% and that if you want you could create graphs with automated scripts from trading data to prove to investors how successful is your method.

However there is nothing like proof in pretty graphs. Maybe you have turned 1 unit of currency into 556 units of currency but showing pretty graphs created by bot does not prove anything like that. Also your trading bot has no evidence from blockchain so why can we believe you?

Because we do not have pretty graphs to give you now you say that maybe our method is likely to be "ScamInvestments" but that does not make any sense. It would make sense if having pretty graphs was proving of method but it does not.

You want to launch an IPO but you are not able to calculate the internal rate of return for a series of cash flows?  

Maybe you have misunderstood what returns mean and irrelevance of internal rate of return for our researching.

We said our method has returned 36% during last 9 months but this rate underestimates real gains due to additions we have made to our capital. Since we did not first intend to launch fund we did not keep records in way to calculate rate of return accounting for new additions to our capital. This does not mean we do not know how to calculate rate of return. It means that calculating this rate was not relevant for us in beginning of researching our method.

Instead we focused on making improvements to our method and measuring declining impact from dark liquidity and increasing resilience against orders made by other traders during our order book setups in progress.

Yes if we collect all our bitcoin purchase data and all our dates we added new bitcoins to our investment capital then we can make some show of precise calculation of rate of return but this is not relevant for us because during 9 months our screening tools changed many times.

Otherwise is like saying an investor is stupid because he only keeps track of annual growth in portfolio value and does not have perfect dates when he puts new dollars in his brokerage account. How many real investors calculate internal rate of return instead of annual growth in portfolio? A real investor wants to perfect method for deciding whether should buy IBM or should buy Intel and does not care if his 10% annual gain is really 12% internal rate of return when tracking dates of his deposits.

Knowing 12% internal rate of return does not make his 10% annual gain any bigger.

Also it does not tell him whether should buy IBM or should buy Intel.

[Darkstone2]

I don't understand that you say both "ScamInvestments" and "FairTrading" refuses to give proof of success but you think that "ScamInvestments" applies to our method and "FairTrading" applies to somebody else.

There is, at this time, not enough evidence to know wheither your security follows the imaginary ScamInvestments or FairTrading model. Given the track record of bitcoin securities, i'm leaning towards the ScamInvestments model since i see no reason why an honest company would refuse to give such proof.

Before you said your trading bot was up 55500% and that if you want you could create graphs with automated scripts from trading data to prove to investors how successful is your method.

However there is nothing like proof in pretty graphs. Maybe you have turned 1 unit of currency into 556 units of currency but showing pretty graphs created by bot does not prove anything like that. Also your trading bot has no evidence from blockchain so why can we believe you?

Because we do not have pretty graphs to give you now you say that maybe our method is likely to be "ScamInvestments" but that does not make any sense. It would make sense if having pretty graphs was proving of method but it does not.

Actually i was off one decimal.

If i was creating an IPO (which, just to be clear i'm not planning to since i gain nothing from having more capital available). I would be able to give investors some pretty graphs which i use myself. I would also provide investors with an withdraw and deposit history of some of the exchanges i'm on.

For example, i'm active on cryptsy. I would remove all my funds from the exchange, then i would release my api key to the public. Now everybody can verify my trading history (up to the last 9000 or so trades since cryptsy's system has problems processing large trade histories, which would be a problem for me, but not for you), my deposits and withdrawls, and transfers.

Now i'm pulling some numbers out of thin air. Say the total of my deposits add up to 0.5 btc, and the total of my withdraws add up to 5 btc. Now it's pretty clear that i'm not lying to the community, and that i have indeed something on my hands that works.

[SymStep]

There is, at this time, not enough evidence to know wheither your security follows the imaginary ScamInvestments or FairTrading model. Given the track record of bitcoin securities, i'm leaning towards the ScamInvestments model since i see no reason why an honest company would refuse to give such proof.

That is OK we respect that you will not want to be involved in any anonymous fund. We told in the OP why we must remain anonymous but we understand especially for those in rich countries with relaxed governments it is hard for you to understand why anyone would have need to be anonymous unless it is to steal your property. We respect also that it is hard for you to understand why research and software development process to create our screening tools does not include complete account deposit histories or pretty graphs.

With respect to you to us this is funny because someone can easily make up pretty graphs and publish spreadsheets with every deposit date. We are not going to make up these things because our goal is not to convince you.

We expected many technical questions about problems of dark liquidity because that is important risk for our method. We did not expect questions for things that could be made up.

For people who are interested more in technical details of offering we are still working on some details but will be ready soon. For example we think to offer guaranteed buyback option instead of manual share transfers if passthrough does not proceed or new exchange is too slow to make start. Manual share transfer needs shareholders to contact and show some personal information to us so we think this is not preferred. Instead we will offer guaranteed buyback method so shareholder sends special amount like 0.0123abcd where abcd is number of shares to redeem and fund sends back bitcoins to same address for abcd shares. This way all is on blockchain and no emails take place. This enables up to 9999 shares for redemption at once so for more it just takes separate transaction. Redemption can be at 95% of NAV so this is benefit to fund but also this is smaller than trading spreads and fees on exchanges like Havelock.

[Darkstone2]

Aside from graphs being 'pretty', they're also an extremely valuable reporting tool.

I have no questions about the technical aspects because i understand exactly what you're doing. I'm not using this technique myself since i found it too hard to automate. The technical aspect of your IPO is solid, it is the personal aspect that does not convince me.

[SymStep]

We have now updated the OP with improved offering document to show private guaranteed buyback method and explain initial offering method. Also we have increased the minimum dividend payment per shareholder from 0.0005 to 0.001 bitcoins each so that possible network fee occupies smaller proportion of total amount of payment.

If there are other questions about offering we thank you for your feedback. We hope to open the offering soon with improved offering document.

[SymStep]

We have now updated the OP with improved method for setting ex-dividend date. Each week this will be Wednesday so that shareholders on Wednesday according to transaction time shown by blockchain.info will be entitled to share of dividends paid by end of that week. No separate ex-dividend date will apply when dividends are paid every second week so still it will be the Wednesday before dividend payment.

If there are not other questions we will begin offering soon.

Many good order book setups have happened during the recent days so we are eager for the start.

[SymStep]

Now we are ready to begin and have updated the OP with details of share offering mechanism.

Thank you for your feedback.

[mikaeldice]

Due to legal considerations in one of our countries, bitcoin trading could cause legal problems and personal risk and that is why we have no choice except that both of us remain anonymous.

If I understand correctly, this means that bitcoin trading and offering investments is not legal in one or more of the countries where you live.  Is that correct?

This fund should be considered unavailable where prohibited by law.

Are you rescinding the offering?  If not, then you should have enough confidence in your legal standing to provide identification.

Which countries do you operate out of?

After each month we will issue a summary for the month which includes a result of the fund NAV and an update on trading activity.

What exactly will be in the reports besides the NAV and the weekly gains/losses you report already in the form of dividend payments?  How can the information you report be verified as truth?

Q: What about your own capital?

A: We would like to put capital into a new project that we hope to announce later but we count on gains from our method up until now as income to build up what we can invest. We would like to replace part of this income with 15% share from the fund. By sustaining some income without needing our own capital anymore we are leveraging our method and our own capital to fund two projects instead of one.

So...  none of your own money.  You share none of the risk.

You get a 15% reward of the profit, but none of your trading activity and resulting gains or losses can be verified.  You can report whatever profits or losses you wish and keep the results.  If you are inept or dishonest, there is no way to prove it.  You are unwilling to provide proof of identity, and can simply disappear when you want with no recourse for the 'investor'.

This might as well be one of those "Send me your money and I'll send 2x back to you!" threads, for all of the evidence provided.

[SymStep]

If I understand correctly, this means that bitcoin trading and offering investments is not legal in one or more of the countries where you live.  Is that correct?

Please read what we have written. What it means is that bitcoin trading of this type could cause legal problems and personal risk and that is why we have no choice except that both of us remain anonymous.

Are you rescinding the offering?  If not, then you should have enough confidence in your legal standing to provide identification.

Please read what we have written. We do not welcome investments from locations where an offering of this type is prohibited according to law.

Which countries do you operate out of?

Please read what we have written.

What exactly will be in the reports besides the NAV and the weekly gains/losses you report already in the form of dividend payments?  How can the information you report be verified as truth?

Please read what we have written and that reporting will include an update on our trading activity.

Please read what we have written about verifying our method with public trading data. Many people who understand how method works already can look at public trading data to see why our success has sustained for many months.

So...  none of your own money.  You share none of the risk.

Please read what we have written including our history of developing this method now over last 10 months and placing our capital at risk and earning very satisfactory reward during this time. Now we are continuing our method to be open for other people.

There are many ways to contribute to fund and you think that only money is mattering to success. However without our research and development for creating method there would not be a fund at all. If you know how to apply our method then you do not need us to do it and you can do it yourself without having worries about our money or your money.

You get a 15% reward of the profit, but none of your trading activity and resulting gains or losses can be verified.

Please read what we have written including our respect for those people who will not be involved in any anonymous fund. Many times bitcoin community welcomes those who need affordance of anonymity but many people are hostile to this. We respect that you are hostile to this and that you will not be involved in fund.

Thank you already to others who have already supported creation of fund with now 6500 shares in last few hours.

[sporket]

If I understand correctly, this means that bitcoin trading and offering investments is not legal in one or more of the countries where you live.  Is that correct?

Please read what we have written. What it means is that bitcoin trading of this type could cause legal problems and personal risk and that is why we have no choice except that both of us remain anonymous.

If what you propose is legal in your country, is it safe to assume you're planning on doing some other shady shit to cause those "legal and personal problems"?

Obvious con is obvious.

[SymStep]

If what you propose is legal in your country, is it safe to assume you're planning on doing some other shady shit to cause those "legal and personal problems"?

Obvious con is obvious.

No it is not safe to assume any such plans.

We understand that it is hard for some people to judge a proposal on merits maybe because they have only bad personal experiences or maybe because they see only bad in others. We have not come to ask for your personal endorsement but to make offering to be judged on merits.

We respect that you can see only bad in our offer and we respect that you will not be involved.

Thank you for support from others who continue with creation of fund during these last hours. Now 12,750 shares are held.

[mikaeldice]

Please read what we have written.

I read what you wrote, which is why I asked the questions.   You're choosing not to answer. 

We understand that it is hard for some people to judge a proposal on merits maybe because they have only bad personal experiences or maybe because they see only bad in others. We have not come to ask for your personal endorsement but to make offering to be judged on merits.

(emphasis mine)

I'd love to judge your proposal on its provable merit.  However, there is none.  The problem is that there are no elements we can examine, no proof to your claims, and no recourse if you're lying or incompetent.  If we take only what can be proven here then we have only an anonymous post on a forum and a BTC address. 

[NotLambchop]

If what you propose is legal in your country, is it safe to assume you're planning on doing some other shady shit to cause those "legal and personal problems"?

Obvious con is obvious.

No it is not safe to assume any such plans.

We understand that it is hard for some people to judge a proposal on merits maybe because they have only bad personal experiences or maybe because they see only bad in others. We have not come to ask for your personal endorsement but to make offering to be judged on merits.
...

If your offering is legal in your home country, your fear of "legal and personal problems" implies one of the following:

1.  You plan on doing other shady shit to cause those problems.
2.  You are insane.
3.  You are lying.
4.  ? [Feel free to construct another plausible scenario here to show me wrong]

I have no problem with you trying to eek out a living, OP, but have little patience for the clumsy, lazy, poorly conceived and badly executed scams that quickly become a source of embarrassment -- both to you and your marks.

[SymStep]

If your offering is legal in your home country, your fear of "legal and personal problems" implies one of the following:

We know our English is not perfect but we did not expect this to be so hard for a few people to understand and for so many false reasonings to seem correct to a few people. Show us somewhere that relaxed governments have made it legal for raising funds in bitcoins with crowdsourcing. No you can't think of any? Then maybe you should reconsider your reasonings that seem so correct to you about what we have said.

Since some handful of nameless people now are making such loud noises once our offering begins we have a perfect gentleman proposal for you. If you are so certain that we are lying or making an obvious con then you can make easy money by placing a bet that you win if we run away with investor money. Put your money where your mouth is and make a bet for us. You must be willing to give us very good odds since you are so certain maybe you would like to make it 5 to 1? Set up the bet please and put your money up in escrow so we can see how certain you are really. We will take your bet with personal capital.

[NotLambchop]

If your offering is legal in your home country, your fear of "legal and personal problems" implies one of the following:

We know our English is not perfect but we did not expect this to be so hard for a few people to understand and for so many false reasonings to seem correct to a few people. Show us somewhere that relaxed governments have made it legal for raising funds in bitcoins with crowdsourcing. No you can't think of any? Then maybe you should reconsider your reasonings that seem so correct to you about what we have said.
...

My reasoning is sound.  Above you admit to running afoul of your country's laws by soliciting money for this scheme.
I have no problem with petty financial crime, but your obvious lack of skill and clumsy manner make it painful to watch.  Such hapless antics are catnip for budding LEO, and are bound to end badly for you and your ... "investors."

[SymStep]

We have offered you opportunity to put your money where your mouth is and turn your certainty into easy money. You decided not to do this and I wonder why?

My reasoning is sound.  Above you admit to running afoul of your country's laws by soliciting money for this scheme.

As you say it admitting to running afoul of country's laws is not same as seeing that nobody's country has made crowdsourced bitcoin fundraising explicitly legal. I am sorry you do not understand logical structure of statement but insist to make your own false conclusion without reason.

We do not come here to argue with some people who troll the securities forum to talk about bitcoin securities are not legal.

I have no problem with petty financial crime, but your obvious lack of skill and clumsy manner make it painful to watch.  Such hapless antics are catnip for budding LEO, and are bound to end badly for you and your ... "investors."

We are sorry you find us lacking skill and making clumsy manner so you choose being disrespectful.

We have been doing this for nearly one year and have developed step trading method with 36% return during 9 months. It has been very profitable thank you. If you have any technical questions about real investment method please ask.

[sporket]

We have offered you opportunity to put your money where your mouth is and turn your certainty into easy money. You decided not to do this and I wonder why? ...

Laughter is the only reasonable response to your offer.  It also happens to be a textbook example of "putting my money where my moth is."
Giving you money, while simultaneously calling you out, would be absurd.  Your logic fails at this, the most basic of levels.
Leaving me without doubts about your other abilities.

Protip:  Don't rush things, OP.  Start with realistic, attainable goals -- stealing apples from street vendors, for instance.  If things work out, you could work up from there.  Best of luck.