Has DeepSeek burst the US tech bubble?

[NewRanger]

It's about time arrogance should be set aside and begin to work and compete. If the response is simply ban Huawei, ban Zoom, ban Tiktok, and so on, block this and that Chinese company, heavily tax this and that Chinese product, criticize this and that Chinese innovation, and so forth without providing a better alternative, I'm afraid China will eventually win.

Usually if someone is pressured in all directions then they automatically look for a way to escape from the shackles and if they escape they may be unstoppable. If we pay attention this is a common thing and it is read that old players always want to dominate the game. For the price of BTC itself I think it does not have a significant influence in this case and the price will continue to rise.

[shinratensei_]

As a result, Nvidia is currently down 17% in today's session, and the Nasdaq is down 3.32%. As you may have noticed it has affected the markets in general and also bitcoin and cryptocurrencies which are also trading down today.

Here is an article on the subject: Why Is DeepSeek Sinking Nvidia Stock?

What do you think about it?

honestly it's just a panic sell nothing more, let us speak logically despite the fact that deepseek require lesser money to develop but ultimately they still use NVIDIA's CUDA library for development purpose since they use NVIDIA H100 it seems, the semiconductor industry honestly shouldn't even be affected but just because people like striking news and majority have no idea what they are investing in especially when it comes to bleeding edge tech company, they just selling it out of fear.

on the other hand, there's literally no threat going against NVIDIA as a company, even china's semiconductor is still falling behind, honestly in my opinion, this news shouldn't even affect the market this bad.

[Ziskinberg]

I think the main reason why Deepseek is better is because it has open source and you can program to exchange with AI, and the main thing is the price compared to CHAGPT, ChatGPT has an approximate price of almost 58eur, and Deepseek of almost 3Eur, and that DeepSeeek has a Deepthink function which is a functionality that makes problem solving faster and almost like a human can do it.

I’m still exploring how to effectively use DeepSeek. So far, I haven’t even found a way to upgrade to a paid version, all I’ve tried is the free one, and to be honest, the response time is pretty slow. As for ChatGPT Premium, I’m not sure if the price is the same in every country, but I’ve tried the $20 monthly plan, and for my needs, it’s already pretty good.

[Lucius]

It troubles me a bit that China is fast catching up. It might even be ahead in some other areas. I think the noise coming from China is bringing some truths that shouldn't be easily brushed off.
~snip~

Far from just catching up with western technology, they have gone far ahead in a lot of things - because since 2008, when the great global crisis began, the Chinese have been going around the world and buying everything that could be bought, including various technologies that they then perfected and today they can shake the technological giants from the west with just one move.

The first trade war imposed on them by Donald strengthened them even more because they had to be more resourceful and innovative in order to remain competitive on world markets. If the US goes in that direction again, I think it will do much more damage to its economy than China's.

[Free Market Capitalist]

The first trade war imposed on them by Donald strengthened them even more because they had to be more resourceful and innovative in order to remain competitive on world markets. If the US goes in that direction again, I think it will do much more damage to its economy than China's.

China's GDP, after double-digit growth in the 2000s, has been in a steady decline regardless of who governs the US. I think you are projecting your dislike for Trump rather than making an objective analysis of reality since it is clear that Trump's first term was much better than Biden's in economic terms.

[Zwei]

I’m still exploring how to effectively use DeepSeek. So far, I haven’t even found a way to upgrade to a paid version, all I’ve tried is the free one, and to be honest, the response time is pretty slow. As for ChatGPT Premium, I’m not sure if the price is the same in every country, but I’ve tried the $20 monthly plan, and for my needs, it’s already pretty good.

as far as i know, there is no paid version of deepseek. they are offering thier best model deepthink r1 for free. you only pay if you want to use their API: https://api-docs.deepseek.com/quick_start/pricing

The first trade war imposed on them by Donald strengthened them even more because they had to be more resourceful and innovative in order to remain competitive on world markets. If the US goes in that direction again, I think it will do much more damage to its economy than China's.

i agreed. pushing china away had the opposite effect of what the US intended, that only made china stronger, not weaker.

China's GDP, after double-digit growth in the 2000s, has been in a steady decline regardless of who governs the US. I think you are projecting your dislike for Trump rather than making an objective analysis of reality since it is clear that Trump's first term was much better than Biden's in economic terms.

for GDP, i think it's only natural for growth to slow down to more "normal" numbers, i mean double-digit growth isn't sustainable forever. you can only grow that fast for so long.

[bitLeap]

honestly it's just a panic sell nothing more, let us speak logically despite the fact that deepseek require lesser money to develop but ultimately they still use NVIDIA's CUDA library for development purpose since they use NVIDIA H100 it seems, the semiconductor industry honestly shouldn't even be affected but just because people like striking news and majority have no idea what they are investing in especially when it comes to bleeding edge tech company, they just selling it out of fear.

on the other hand, there's literally no threat going against NVIDIA as a company, even china's semiconductor is still falling behind, honestly in my opinion, this news shouldn't even affect the market this bad.

Some people have tried it while my registration process is experiencing problems because the demand is currently high. Based on reviews, many people are quite enthusiastic, just like when ChatGPT first appeared. But apart from all that, what I care most about is the competition between China and the US which continues to lead us to the era of who is the most sophisticated. This is clearly a challenge for the US that the Chip they use has been modified by China better.

As the global market responds to DeepSeek, it can be clearly seen that panic occurs so quickly, this price drop is a short-term panic but still the next response when China shows more advantages, the technology market bubble will automatically continue to lean towards China.

[Ziskinberg]

I’m still exploring how to effectively use DeepSeek. So far, I haven’t even found a way to upgrade to a paid version, all I’ve tried is the free one, and to be honest, the response time is pretty slow. As for ChatGPT Premium, I’m not sure if the price is the same in every country, but I’ve tried the $20 monthly plan, and for my needs, it’s already pretty good.

as far as i know, there is no paid version of deepseek. they are offering thier best model deepthink r1 for free. you only pay if you want to use their API: https://api-docs.deepseek.com/quick_start/pricing

I guess I still need to explore it more to see if it would really help me with my work. The free version I tried always says "network busy", probably because a lot of people are using it due to its popularity.

I was thinking that maybe the paid version offers a better experience, less lag, faster responses, and more reliability.

Might be worth trying if possible.

[Lucius]

The first trade war imposed on them by Donald strengthened them even more because they had to be more resourceful and innovative in order to remain competitive on world markets. If the US goes in that direction again, I think it will do much more damage to its economy than China's.

China's GDP, after double-digit growth in the 2000s, has been in a steady decline regardless of who governs the US. I think you are projecting your dislike for Trump rather than making an objective analysis of reality since it is clear that Trump's first term was much better than Biden's in economic terms.

Do you really want to compare the period 2016-2020 with the period 2020-2024? Apart from the pandemic that turned the whole world upside down, and Russia's aggression against Ukraine, I don't know who can say that Joe could have done better regardless of his health. The obsession that the US generally has with China is clearly a sign that they can't imagine anyone being better than them at anything.

China is simply too strong to be defeated economically, but if Donald thinks he can bring all US manufacturing back from China to the US, I hope he knows how to calculate how much an Apple product would cost if it were made in the US instead of in China.

[Abiky]

It troubles me a bit that China is fast catching up. It might even be ahead in some other areas. I think the noise coming from China is bringing some truths that shouldn't be easily brushed off.

China is making great strides. The response should be competition, not cancellation. It seems the western supremacy's tendency to just discount right away China's capabilities and brilliance won't do them any good. There's no more stopping the red dragon now. The US can't just use their geopolitical muscles against factual technological advancements in the communist regime.

It's about time arrogance should be set aside and begin to work and compete. If the response is simply ban Huawei, ban Zoom, ban Tiktok, and so on, block this and that Chinese company, heavily tax this and that Chinese product, criticize this and that Chinese innovation, and so forth without providing a better alternative, I'm afraid China will eventually win.

China will win unless the US begins to innovate at a fast pace. It's not about stopping China anymore. It's about competing against it with the hopes of reaching the top. If all else fails, China will eventually surpass the US as the world's leading superpower. Perhaps, this means the CNY will replace the USD as the world's reserve currency? Only time will tell.

I guess it's time to admit Deepseek defeated OpenAI and other US-based AI companies for good. China will use its AI supremacy to become stronger than ever and even help its allies (eg: Russia) in times of need. I'm afraid a "New World Order" is upon us. The question is: Are we ready for it?

[Darker45]

It troubles me a bit that China is fast catching up. It might even be ahead in some other areas. I think the noise coming from China is bringing some truths that shouldn't be easily brushed off.
~snip~

Far from just catching up with western technology, they have gone far ahead in a lot of things - because since 2008, when the great global crisis began, the Chinese have been going around the world and buying everything that could be bought, including various technologies that they then perfected and today they can shake the technological giants from the west with just one move.

The first trade war imposed on them by Donald strengthened them even more because they had to be more resourceful and innovative in order to remain competitive on world markets. If the US goes in that direction again, I think it will do much more damage to its economy than China's.

If the US continues with this approach without directly competing, they'd lose in the long run. This is a war of technological innovation. This isn't trade war. The US is responding with the wrong solution.

They're like that spoiled kid in the block who's envious of a new kid that has a lot of new toys. Lost in the competition and feeling worried, he tells the other kids not to make friends with the new kid, not to let him join their games, not to give him any attention, and so on. Soon, his friends left him and played with the newcomer with his great toys.

This is pretty much what the US is doing with its tax threats against Chinese cars, threats against T-Mobile, AT&T, and others that they'd lose contracts with the government if they sell Huawei phones, and so on. It doesn't actually address the problem.

[Free Market Capitalist]

Do you really want to compare the period 2016-2020 with the period 2020-2024? Apart from the pandemic that turned the whole world upside down, and Russia's aggression against Ukraine, I don't know who can say that Joe could have done better regardless of his health.

I didn't want to go too off topic with this, but since you say so:

1. The worst of the pandemic happened when Trump was in power.
2. Russia's aggression against Ukraine did not happen with Trump in power, when the problem came from many years before.
3. If Joe's health was so bad, which was denied until the last moment, I don't know what he was doing in charge of the nuclear button.

The obsession that the US generally has with China is clearly a sign that they can't imagine anyone being better than them at anything.

China is simply too strong to be defeated economically, but if Donald thinks he can bring all US manufacturing back from China to the US, I hope he knows how to calculate how much an Apple product would cost if it were made in the US instead of in China.

You could have said the same thing 30 years ago by interchanging the terms “USA” and “China”.

[Lucius]

I didn't want to go too off topic with this, but since you say so:

To be honest, you've taken a turn in this direction - it clearly bothers you that I don't sympathize with the man who became president again, despite the fact that he should be behind bars.

1. The worst of the pandemic happened when Trump was in power.

The worst happened in the years after if we talk about the economy, but I agree that some bad things happened during the time of the mighty Donald - how many people died because they listened to his advice that drinking disinfectants can kill the virus in themselves?

2. Russia's aggression against Ukraine did not happen with Trump in power, when the problem came from many years before.

Technically, it started in 2014 and continued in 2022, so three US presidents did nothing to prevent it - and neither will this one now, who promised to end the war in 24 hours, and it is rumored that he will blackmail Ukraine into agreeing to peace on the condition that Russia keeps all occupied territories.

3. If Joe's health was so bad, which was denied until the last moment, I don't know what he was doing in charge of the nuclear button.

He was bad from day one, you don't need to be a doctor to see that the man is demented, but the same question can be asked today - why is a man with 37 confirmed indictments sitting in the White House? They (Americans) call such leaders in other countries dictators, and they have chosen exactly one of them to lead them for the next 4 years. When you look at the kind of people he surrounded himself with, then nothing normal can be expected for the next 4 years - because how will a journalist lead the Ministry of Defense or a man whose brain was eaten by worms the Ministry of Health?

I'm not going to play prophet here, but with the current balance of political power between the US and China, I don't see how the US can win an economic war.

[STT]

i agreed. pushing china away had the opposite effect of what the US intended, that only made china stronger, not weaker.


for GDP, i think it's only natural for growth to slow down to more "normal" numbers, i mean double-digit growth isn't sustainable forever. you can only grow that fast for so long.

China often makes itself weaker in its own actions, some of those past decisions will be paying out now for decades.   Such as the falling working population which is a result of harsh population controls they had on families to the point of death, so the growth falling is not inevitable it was forced on the nation by the military dictatorship which has a gun to their head; thats so far away from natural decline its near assassination.

Similarly I would rate the idea of tariffs and trade controls, all these threats thrown around have at times been described as a precursor to war.   Perhaps history reflects that but the damage to natural flow of business is quite clear, nobody is befitting when governments throw themselves in the way of a situation that didn't need saving.

[viljy]

I don't know if you've heard by now, but today's dip is mainly because DeepSeek, a Chinese artificial intelligence company has developed an open-source artificial intelligence model that some say works better than ChatGPT and other US AIs, and more importantly, does it for a fraction of the cost. This comes shortly after the US announced a $500B investment in AI.

The tech bubble has been behind the success of Nvidia, the world's most profitable company until MicroStrategy came into play. These companies, many of which have AI projects, have caused a huge demand for hardware that with the success of DeepSeek is now in doubt as to whether it will continue to be needed.

As a result, Nvidia is currently down 17% in today's session, and the Nasdaq is down 3.32%. As you may have noticed it has affected the markets in general and also bitcoin and cryptocurrencies which are also trading down today.

Here is an article on the subject: Why Is DeepSeek Sinking Nvidia Stock?

What do you think about it?

I think that interested financial institutions and individuals will look for any reason to inflate the bubble further. Indeed, the following events have occurred in recent days:  OpenAI has accused DeepSeek of training its model using ChatGPT;
An investigation has begun into a possible violation of sanctions when selling powerful chips (probably H100) to China through Singapore;
Yesterday, OpenAI released its new o3-mini model, and most importantly, which can be used for free.
It looks like a commotion.

It is possible that DeepSeek actually trained its model on the H800 (not under sanctions), as evidenced by the current trend of decreasing model sizes (and resource requirements) with a strong improvement in the quality of synthetic datasets.  Small models are distilled from large ones. That is, it is happening exactly as Andrej Karpathy predicted not so long ago. If so, the consequences for financial markets will be catastrophic. There's even a meme about the fact that the economy is based on two pillars: NVIDIA and Taylor Swift.

[Free Market Capitalist]

To be honest, you've taken a turn in this direction - it clearly bothers you that I don't sympathize with the man who became president again, despite the fact that he should be behind bars.

Not really. That you don't sympathize is clear to me and you are not the only one in this forum, far from it. You say that he should be behind bars because you are smarter than the entire US judicial system? I already gave you a quote from theymos in this regard.

The worst happened in the years after if we talk about the economy,

See, that's not objective. It's no longer just that the worst economically speaking happened in 2020, it's that by the time Biden came into office there were no longer confinements, for example, that crippled economic activity.

but I agree that some bad things happened during the time of the mighty Donald - how many people died because they listened to his advice that drinking disinfectants can kill the virus in themselves?

To say that is retarded, really, we agree on that.

Technically, it started in 2014 and continued in 2022, so three US presidents did nothing to prevent it - and neither will this one now, who promised to end the war in 24 hours, and it is rumored that he will blackmail Ukraine into agreeing to peace on the condition that Russia keeps all occupied territories.

Perhaps you would prefer that millions of people continue to die? That we end up in a nuclear war? It is clear to me that Putin invaded Ukraine because Biden is a weak guy who made a fool of himself when he withdrew from Afghanistan. With such a guy in power in the USA he did not hesitate to invade Ukraine. Trump has a big mouth, on that we also agree.

He was bad from day one, you don't need to be a doctor to see that the man is demented, but the same question can be asked today -

I saw it, and maybe you saw it too but both the Democratic party and all the like-minded media (of the big ones all but Fox) denied it well into the 2024 election campaign.

...why is a man with 37 confirmed indictments sitting in the White House?

That I answered you with the theymos quote which I don't know if you have forgotten or just disagree (which would be very respectable). Just in case you didn't read it or forgot it, here you go:

I'm not Trump's biggest fan by any means, and he's done plenty of stuff that is both criminal and incredibly unethical. But what I take from the fact that a convicted felon was elected as president is that the criminal justice system is a joke, and the American people know it. There are so many very-broad criminal laws that anyone can be convicted of anything, and it all comes down to whether the government considers it convenient to prosecute you or not. Now that Trump is in charge of the DoJ, you'll be seeing quite a few top Democrats become convicted felons, I think, and these convictions will have about the same amount of "justice" in them as Trump's convictions.

They (Americans) call such leaders in other countries dictators, and they have chosen exactly one of them to lead them for the next 4 years. When you look at the kind of people he surrounded himself with, then nothing normal can be expected for the next 4 years - because how will a journalist lead the Ministry of Defense or a man whose brain was eaten by worms the Ministry of Health?

You see, here I see that you express your prejudices instead of making an objective analysis of reality. That there are ministers who are not from that field is not at all uncommon in democracies around the world and RFK has the best plan to heal the USA that has been put forward in decades. Maybe the fact that he has been sick makes him so concerned about the health of his countrymen.

Apparently you are not worried about (poor) Joe pardoning his son or all the shady business dealings we could talk so much about with the Biden family and other Democrats.

I'm not going to play prophet here, but with the current balance of political power between the US and China, I don't see how the US can win an economic war.

Lol, that's exactly what you are doing. Of course you don't see it, with those prejudices you sure don't see it. You see a static thing, and I see a change.

[Oluwa-btc]

I don't know if you've heard by now, but today's dip is mainly because DeepSeek, a Chinese artificial intelligence company has developed an open-source artificial intelligence model that some say works better than ChatGPT and other US AIs, and more importantly, does it for a fraction of the cost.

It's all over the news and I think it has seemless accessibility for usage moreover it's a good thing technology is taking over the world today cause just as the world revolve alot of things keeps changing for the better and technology has been one effective source, meanwhile the artificial intelligence company bringing in deep seek I think they sure have a purpose for this cause ever since it was launched it's been going viral and if it's what I'm thinking... Technology is definitely taking over.

[CryptoBuds]

It troubles me a bit that China is fast catching up. It might even be ahead in some other areas. I think the noise coming from China is bringing some truths that shouldn't be easily brushed off.

China is making great strides. The response should be competition, not cancellation. It seems the western supremacy's tendency to just discount right away China's capabilities and brilliance won't do them any good. There's no more stopping the red dragon now. The US can't just use their geopolitical muscles against factual technological advancements in the communist regime.

It's about time arrogance should be set aside and begin to work and compete. If the response is simply ban Huawei, ban Zoom, ban Tiktok, and so on, block this and that Chinese company, heavily tax this and that Chinese product, criticize this and that Chinese innovation, and so forth without providing a better alternative, I'm afraid China will eventually win.

Why do you feel worried when China is quickly catching up with the US and they will eventually be the winner? On the contrary, as consumers, I think this is a very good thing for us because such fierce competition will create quality products as well as significantly cheaper prices. Consumers will have more choices with products that suit their needs instead of having to suffer from monopoly and paying too high a price compared to the actual quality they receive.

The US and the West have failed and cannot compete with the rise of China, and they have no better strategy than to impose a series of bans. This may slow down China's development somewhat but ultimately they will not be able to stop China's strong development. It is only a matter of time before China surpasses the US if the US thinks that simply using its political power to impose a ban and thinking that is an effective solution.

[eightdots]

I don't know if you've heard by now, but today's dip is mainly because DeepSeek, a Chinese artificial intelligence company has developed an open-source artificial intelligence model that some say works better than ChatGPT and other US AIs, and more importantly, does it for a fraction of the cost. This comes shortly after the US announced a $500B investment in AI.

The tech bubble has been behind the success of Nvidia, the world's most profitable company until MicroStrategy came into play. These companies, many of which have AI projects, have caused a huge demand for hardware that with the success of DeepSeek is now in doubt as to whether it will continue to be needed.

As a result, Nvidia is currently down 17% in today's session, and the Nasdaq is down 3.32%. As you may have noticed it has affected the markets in general and also bitcoin and cryptocurrencies which are also trading down today.

Here is an article on the subject: Why Is DeepSeek Sinking Nvidia Stock?

What do you think about it?

Although a technological development initially has a negative impact on the markets, it always creates a positive impact in the future. Development is not achieved by waiting for just one company to develop a product, but by many companies producing different products. Technologies that are inspired by each other contribute to each other's development. I think it would be more accurate to look at the situation from this perspective.

The world immediately adopts technology and can immediately choose the most useful one. I think that more steps will be taken, especially in artificial intelligence. The speed of technology development will increase greatly after a while, and those who keep up with it will benefit greatly.

[Fortify]

I don't know if you've heard by now, but today's dip is mainly because DeepSeek, a Chinese artificial intelligence company has developed an open-source artificial intelligence model that some say works better than ChatGPT and other US AIs, and more importantly, does it for a fraction of the cost. This comes shortly after the US announced a $500B investment in AI.

The tech bubble has been behind the success of Nvidia, the world's most profitable company until MicroStrategy came into play. These companies, many of which have AI projects, have caused a huge demand for hardware that with the success of DeepSeek is now in doubt as to whether it will continue to be needed.

As a result, Nvidia is currently down 17% in today's session, and the Nasdaq is down 3.32%. As you may have noticed it has affected the markets in general and also bitcoin and cryptocurrencies which are also trading down today.

Here is an article on the subject: Why Is DeepSeek Sinking Nvidia Stock?

What do you think about it?

I'm not sure the bubble has anywhere near burst and it would actually be nice if it was ratcheted down in stages rather than a big bang happening, so this could be a useful setback. We are too used to this peak and trough type of economics, where people exceed at both ends - betting over the actual value in the good times and then selling like crazy in sheer panic when the inevitable bad times hit. It was a big wake up call in the tech industry though, because some of these companies thought they were the pioneers yet a much nimbler opponent has caught up with a fraction of the resources. It created massive ripple effects too with even data center providers, who had expected required expansion, realizing that they don't need as much computing power as originally expected to achieve the same results. Even OpenAI/ChatGPT were anticipating spending tens of billions a year in the next decade, which is proving much higher than will be necessary.