No longer pursuing Epochtalk

[LTU_btc]

I had mixed feelings about these news. Finally there will be no false hope that new forum software will be released one day. Not sure that I was waiting for it because I'm fine with current version. And I had some fears that new version will have worse user experience because of all bugs that it can take a while to fix.

How much did this investment cost? And what is the future plan to develop the forum software?

I'm also wondering about how much money was spent in all these years, but I doubt that we will get answer.
Also, it would interesting to hear name of company, they deserved some bad advertising.

[dkbit98]

It's no surprise for me to hear this news and I am not disappointed, but I would suggest speeding up improvements of current forum.
First thing that needs to to improved with forum is adding better support for mobile devices.
I know we already have some community made userscripts, but this needs to be official and available to everyone.

[Synchronice]

Going forward, we will continue to make improvements to the current software. One of the most requested features is improving the forum's usability on mobile devices, and that is already being worked on.

That's very good news. I assume, this means that you are either going to change the current design of the website or change the structure of the current website. Keep in mind that dark/light mode is one of the most requested feature too, so might be a better idea to convert background images into gradients.

Besides forum software, my interest is to know what plans do you have for this forum? Do you plan to compete other social platforms and make this forum more popular like it was during its glory days?

I prefer this forum. I even see this forum to be very unique.

I think that if we want Bitcointalk to exist and stay strong, we need to adapt changes. Having a mobile adapted website is crucial these days and there has to be done something to ignite the interest in young generation.

How much did this investment cost?

That's an interesting question and also, when did the forum start negotiation with the company?

[ibminer]

Going forward, we will continue to make improvements to the current software.

I can guess the answer, but does that mean there won't be upgrade to SFM 2.X either?

I'd think a lot of the features that exist in SMF 2.X are achievable, the code is technically all out there and provided by the SMF developers/community, but it can't just be upgraded in a traditional sense... it sort of needs to have features ported over into Bitcointalk's version of SMF, which nobody really has access to outside of theymos (to my knowledge), so I'm not sure how complicated that ends up looking, but I'd guess it could be done in less time then it has taken epochtalk to get to a full transition state for this forum (no offense).

I've always preferred this forum and generally dreaded moving to a new platform entirely, but this version of SMF does need some help from an aesthetics point of view, needs to be mobile-friendly/responsive, an API would be great, maybe some minor theme options, and drag/drop images would be nice.. although I may be asking for a bit much on that last one. Maybe if talkimg had an API that bitcointalk could communicate with (or an API that the user's browser was referred to), a drag/drop image could be redirected to an upload on talkimg which then returns the bbcode for it.

[BenCodie]

Reportedly 11,000 BTC were donated toward creating this new forum software. I don't think that this is going to go down too well for people who gave BTC to the forum for this purpose, only for the plug to be pulled after all these years. This is a real shame to read.

How much did this investment cost? And what is the future plan to develop the forum software?

I think the main question is - how much BTC is left? Did it all go to this software company? Had the BTC just appreciated all this time, and they get to keep the reward for not even completing the job? Even though I'm not a donator, it doesn't feel right letting failed software developers keep what is now valued at over a billion dollars for a job that was never completed.

To be honest, the new forum software doesn't look or feel bad, it might need a redesign but from guest view the user experience is ok (not good enough to replace this one though). Though why new forum software was needed to begin with is the main question. Why replace what satoshi created? Why replace SMF if it works fine, it's been built/is able to be built on as it has? Why did the forum feel that new software was needed to begin with? Why did the forum pool so much BTC together instead of working on the project open-source or in outsourcing with milestone agreements?

[suchmoon]

Why did the forum pool so much BTC together instead of working on the project open-source or in outsourcing with milestone agreements?

Epochtalk is open source. You can fix it up, run a demo, and we'll all pile on to make fun of it.

I'd consider looking into it if it wasn't built on some godawful server-side javascript framework, but for someone who knows that shit or wants to learn, it might be an interesting project, or a complete waste of time.

[_act_]

I think that if we want Bitcointalk to exist and stay strong, we need to adapt changes. Having a mobile adapted website is crucial these days and there has to be done something to ignite the interest in young generation.

Even if there should be a new forum software, I will prefer the layout to be like how this forum is now but only in a way it will also look better on mobile phones. Although I will prefer to continue to use this one because I use it with mobile phone but I like how it looks like desktop on a mobile phone which makes posts smaller and easier to read.

If possible that this present one can be done in a way it can become friendlier with mobile phones and also if some cool dark modes can be enabled, I prefer this one.

[hugeblack]

I think the main question is - how much BTC is left? Did it all go to this software company? Had the BTC just appreciated all this time, and they get to keep the reward for not even completing the job? Even though I'm not a donator, it doesn't feel right letting failed software developers keep what is now valued at over a billion dollars for a job that was never completed.

It's unfortunate that so much was paid for nothing and developers like @PowerGlove was working for free.

[nutildah]

I think the main question is - how much BTC is left?

If you didn't donate any BTC, then its not a question at all as it doesn't concern you.

Actually it doesn't concern the donors much either, hence the use of the term "donation."

[ibminer]

There are things called restricted funds in the donation world, but me not being a lawyer, I really don't know if it qualifies with these donations or not, I'd guess it does since there was always a specific purpose that people were donating towards.

It's unfortunate that so much was paid for nothing and developers like @PowerGlove was working for free.

It is unfortunate, but at some point you have to say enough is enough. There definitely had been development happening for what was being paid out, but (imo) after experiencing epochtalk myself back in ~2020, and with the recent live demo, it didn't feel like it would ever make it to the standards of being the official forum software at bitcointalk.

And PG did eventually start getting paid:

I'd like to correct a misconception that I keep bumping into before it becomes too widespread:

While most of the patches I've posted to date were done on a free-time/voluntary basis, theymos and I did recently come to an arrangement, and I am now paid for the work I do on Bitcointalk.

[shield132]

Reportedly 11,000 BTC were donated toward creating this new forum software.

It wasn't worth much when Bitcointalk started the development of Epochtalk but it's lots of money today. Maybe it was early for Bitcointalk to start the development of epochtalk because back then, web development, app development and UI/UX design weren't as advanced as it is today. I believe that it was a fast decision. Today, it's possible to create lots of amazing things with 11,000 BTC but who knew if the price would go this high?

It's sad that Bitcointalk didn't go beyond SMF but I think it was time for epochtalk's development to end. Technology and UI standards change very quickly, so when we start a project like Epochtalk, it should be done very quickly and if it stays open-source, it should try to attract talented UI/UX designers and web developers.

[JiiBs]

I wasn’t familiar with the term Epochtalk and only came to that discovery with this thread. It’s encouraging to see that, behind the seen, a lot is being done to ensure the future and continuity of the forum. One thing is having all the resources and another is how to use them in a futuristic way. With the ideas embedded in the Epochtalk project which I now capture in this quote;

The developers of Epochtalk were not working on anything actually used by forum users: they were working on a hope that we might someday move away from PHP/SMF.

It’s reassuring that the forum is in good hands and the decision to drop it must have been a very difficult one given the time and resource but, it’s probably for the best and good of all forum users in this time.
What’s more enticing is that, without the support of the forum, the developers aren’t giving up so, it still looks like a win.

[BenCodie]

Reportedly 11,000 BTC were donated toward creating this new forum software.

It wasn't worth much when Bitcointalk started the development of Epochtalk but it's lots of money today. Maybe it was early for Bitcointalk to start the development of epochtalk because back then, web development, app development and UI/UX design weren't as advanced as it is today. I believe that it was a fast decision. Today, it's possible to create lots of amazing things with 11,000 BTC but who knew if the price would go this high?

This thread was posted on March 2014 stating work was underway. Rate was around $500-$600 meaning at that time, donations tallied to around $5,000,000-$6,000,000.

I have never heard of a project surpass $100,000 budget before someone asks questions as to why costs are stacking up and why it's taking so long. Heck, I'm sure theymos could have donated $1,000,000 of that to simplemachines themselves and got them to make SMF 3.0 for that amount.

The questions of embezzlement and fraud by the development company (and whoever else is involved) are definitely I'd be asking if I were a donator that care about where my BTC went...but I'm not, just a disappointed spectator.

I think the main question is - how much BTC is left? Did it all go to this software company? Had the BTC just appreciated all this time, and they get to keep the reward for not even completing the job? Even though I'm not a donator, it doesn't feel right letting failed software developers keep what is now valued at over a billion dollars for a job that was never completed.

It's unfortunate that so much was paid for nothing and developers like @PowerGlove was working for free.

+1

Why did the forum pool so much BTC together instead of working on the project open-source or in outsourcing with milestone agreements?

Epochtalk is open source. You can fix it up, run a demo, and we'll all pile on to make fun of it.

I'd consider looking into it if it wasn't built on some godawful server-side javascript framework, but for someone who knows that shit or wants to learn, it might be an interesting project, or a complete waste of time.

Sure, give me 11,000 BTC and I'll go right ahead lol. Or, even 1 BTC as a first milestone and I'm sure I'd be able to put a good dent into a solution built from scratch and on modern languages. This begs the question - Theymos raised 11,000 BTC to build new forum software, does that mean I can do something similar? (Partially joking, I'd love a shot at rebuilding this place but it's also a matter of if it even needs to be rebuilt, I personally love SMF 1)

I think the main question is - how much BTC is left?

If you didn't donate any BTC, then its not a question at all as it doesn't concern you.

Oh, really? I could point out plenty of cases on this forum where people were not affected and yet they commented, including yourself, but in this case I can't comment? I'll comment all I want and I don't really see what authority you have to tell me what does or doesn't concern me.

I think the main question is - how much BTC is left?

Actually it doesn't concern the donors much either, hence the use of the term "donation."

Seriously? $5-6m at the time, appreciated to $1.1 billion at current valuation, for a project didn't get to point of completion after a decade, and you're telling me it doesn't concern the people who donated to it? Some people probably donated thinking it would happen within a year, two, maybe three...but for all this time to pass and for the project to be abandoned? Do you think that if this was an explicitly stated possibility that as many people would have donated? With the amount donated, I'm sure no one actually thought that resources would permit failure.

[theymos]

Is there any chance that we shall use the newer versions of SMF in the future, or we shall just stick to this current one?

There would be some benefits to upgrading, but there aren't actually that many differences between 1.x and 2.x, so it hasn't been a priority. I could see it happening someday, but not anytime soon; there are tons of differences between bitcointalk.org and stock SMF 1.x, so it'd be a very major project.

How much did this investment cost?

The total amount spent was $5.9 million, spread across 11 years.

And what is the future plan to develop the forum software?

I'm very hesitant to undertake any major projects again anytime soon. So I'm mainly planning on incremental improvements to the current software, on the same trajectory as the last several years, but perhaps a bit faster since Epochtalk is no longer consuming time and money.

Reportedly 11,000 BTC were donated toward creating this new forum software.

That's not true. 3116 BTC was donated, with a total value-at-time-of-transaction of just $68k. The remainder comes from advertising/fee revenue, with a total value-at-time-of-transaction of $3.2 million. (A lot of spending was also at these sorts of low prices.) Furthermore, donations were meant to be a way of supporting the forum in general terms; it wasn't like some Kickstarter project. The main pages about donations didn't mention the software project at all, and almost all donations were made before that project even started.

Do you plan to compete other social platforms and make this forum more popular like it was during its glory days?

I don't think that that will ever happen, realistically. This whole style of forum is just not as popular anymore. To have even a chance of making it as popular as it was in its glory days, the whole structure of the forum would have to change, and I think that it's more important to retain the fundamental soul of the forum. So I envision the forum perpetually existing as a place for a certain niche crowd who still appreciates this kind of forum. This doesn't mean stagnation: the forum can still grow and improve while remaining niche.

[jamyr]

I don't think that that will ever happen, realistically. This whole style of forum is just not as popular anymore. To have even a chance of making it as popular as it was in its glory days, the whole structure of the forum would have to change, and I think that it's more important to retain the fundamental soul of the forum. So I envision the forum perpetually existing as a place for a certain niche crowd who still appreciates this kind of forum. This doesn't mean stagnation: the forum can still grow and improve while remaining niche.

Boss thank you for keeping the forum as it is. A Townsquare for folks to share ideas and dramas.

 For what my delinquent behavior is worth,  i find it more comfortable here bitcointalk even if I am not a member in good standing, rather than facebook. Here members are not weighed according to their coins(some maybe), but of merit.

Pls revisit that

homestead

idea instead. Hehe

[DireWolfM14]

I half expected this day to come, and realistically I'm somewhat relieved.  It took me a while to find and explore all the features here and I don't want to have to go through the learning curve again.  Having been on internet forums my whole adult life, SMF seems rather comfortable.  Like my favorite torn-up sweatshirt with the 49ers logo all but indiscernible.  Okay, maybe that's a bad analogy, no offense meant, lol.

Sorry if I'm the only one cheering, but let's keep making this forum what it's been for a long time; the best forum on the world wide web.  It has been for me, anyway.  And it has nothing to do with the software that it's built upon.  It has to do with the community, the people, and of course what brought us all here in the first place; to learn as much as we can about bitcoin.

Even if it is built on stone-age (in internet terms) technology, I can still see myself enjoying it as-is for decades to come.

[God Of Thunder]

Since most wanted patches were already added to the current software, which was 2FA, I guess it is okay to stay in it. I believe people are already used to using this current version, and they will have some difficulties using a new version of the forum. I wouldn't oppose it it if there were a new forum software, but since that is full of bugs and not 100% completed, let it remain like that.

I don't think people have any problem using the current software. But some improvements needed which we often see people bump of those threads. Personally, I am happy using the current version of the forum. 

[TheUltraElite]

I do hate getting false hope, so getting this news is good thing to clear the head about Epochtalk. Have been hearing about it since quite a few years without any actual product. Good thing admin is honest and open about how things went, unlike politicians out there who always sweep everything under the rug.

I dont mind seeing the forum to be something from StongAgeInternet and still being developed.

[BenCodie]

Reportedly 11,000 BTC were donated toward creating this new forum software.

That's not true. 3116 BTC was donated, with a total value-at-time-of-transaction of just $68k. The remainder comes from advertising/fee revenue, with a total value-at-time-of-transaction of $3.2 million. (A lot of spending was also at these sorts of low prices.) Furthermore, donations were meant to be a way of supporting the forum in general terms; it wasn't like some Kickstarter project. The main pages about donations didn't mention the software project at all, and almost all donations were made before that project even started.

Do you plan to compete other social platforms and make this forum more popular like it was during its glory days?

To justify my comment, it was based on these ones:

Buyers remorse is worse with bitcoin.  I am a guy looks at what he spent to buy a tablet with 0.2 BTC and keep thinking I have a mental disability looking back but then I think of Adam Levine's camera for 30, and Theymos paying 11k for web software and another guy bought two pizzas for the same amount.  Money is for spending. It's only a game.  I learned a lot by using the tools and services I bought with BTC, and I am glad I had those.  It must be disheartening after three years for Theymos but good software can take time.

The choice may have been different if we were to start the project now. But I believe that interfaces are what matters. Also, we kind of didn't have a choice on the frontend. If you would like to see, our migration layer and database schema design is written in Elixir and Ecto. As for JS, there are definitely shortcomings but performance-wise, Node is good enough on the server side for the time being.

Do you have any specific questions?

Do you realize how hilariously unbelievable it is that 11k BTC has been donated for new forum software and nothing has changed?

Do you ever feel like you scammed bitcointalk users that donated?

Javascript is slow... why the fuck would you be developing a 100 million dollar forum in javascript? "Good enough," seriously???. With all the bitcoin that was donated this is just insane... 2018 and no new software. Not even an alpha example to go look at.

You never corrected that the actual figure was 3116 BTC and not 11,000 BTC there, so I assumed they were correct. That figure has been thrown around more than once.

As for $68k being value at the time of transaction, that means that each coin was worth $21 each at the time of the transaction which would have been February 2013 at the latest. I estimated values based on this post:

Work is underway by Slickage on new forum software for this forum. The software will be written in Node.js. The goal is to create new open source forum software that will directly compete with software like SMF and phpBB. Unlike Discourse, the software will be featureful and information-dense. Unlike Reddit, the software will support and encourage lengthy, high-quality posts (while allowing shorter posts). The software will be a jump forward from our current forum, but not something entirely new. The basic concepts will stay the same, but with significantly better code, better methods of filtering the huge amount of content, and many other useful features. All old forum data will be retained and migrated to the new software.

Here is the current master requirements document. This document is evolving. If you have any ideas for new features or changes that are reasonably high-priority and realistic, discuss them in this section.

Which was over a year after February 2013, March 2014 (Price was $500+). Though if February 2013 was the case, that would mean that work began a year after the donations came in? It sounds like the project was not going so great from the beginning if that's the case. One whole year before development even begins is quite a long time...one whole year before a post is made or a goal is published is also quite a long time.

I could go on, though I'll actually take nutildah's advice (despite it being wrong in my eyes) as I wasn't a donator and I'm not interested in pressing the admin of a forum I enjoy being a part of. All I will say to end this post, is that I think you could be a bit more transparent with what happened since it's ending here. Answering questions like why it took a year for development to start, how much Slickage got for this failed work, any disputes between the two of you, or any kind of recount, would be useful insight for a donator (or an outsider) to understand the whole saga (especially since not a single thread with info like this was opened in that board since that initial thread, until this thread, afaik). That's my opinion (not a requirement, obviously).

All of that aside, it is a part of life to fail, and if this was just genuine failure, it sucks that the project turned out that way and I'm sorry for you and the donators that it did. I know that personally it wouldn't feel good, and I'm not trying to make you feel worse than you already might. I'll leave this at that.

[cryptofrka]

I'm honestly quite relieved, I checked it out once this year and I hated everything about it.

On the flip side, this is so much money down the drain. Like, barely believable, for no usable results. If I did that with that money I'd be redtagged to eternity and called a scammer.

I really don't know how BTT came to possess 1k+ BTC, if most of it is from theymos and a few more people they can burn it all on another 50 years of similar projects.
If it is however part of satoshi's legacy, we shouldn't be so forgiving with how it's spent considering that at that point at least theoretically it belongs to all of us equally.

Considering that this forum does so many things without any basic transparency, not expecting any miracles though. I don't even want to go down that rabbithole, I briefly breezed over the 'where did all the BCH go' fiasco and it was way more than I could stomach.

I hope there is a plan on how to use that 1k+ BTC though, other than the generic one signed in the multisig contract:

Code:

signer will in a
very public fashion work with the other multisig signers,
bitcointalk.org staff, and notable bitcointalk.org users to see
to the creation of a US non-profit organization with a mission
similar to "In order to increase freedom in the world: Operate
bitcointalk.org and/or sites similar to bitcointalk.org, work
toward the long-term success of Bitcoin, and work toward more
widespread decentralization and applied cryptography." If a
suitable organization already exists, then a new one need not be
created. Once an organization exists which 3 of 5 signers can
agree has a sufficiently-matching mission statement and an
organizational/management structure capable of effectively
fulfilling it, then they are instructed to create and sign a
Bitcoin transaction to send all of the bitcoins covered by the
multisig to the organization.

This basically means that 5 people connected with the multisig signers can create 'long live crypto' nonprofit and walk away with 200+ BTC each. Really hope I'm wrong here.

Full contract can be found here for all those interested.