Online Business Certification of Cryptocurrency Businesses

[caroasi]

I'm wondering what kind of business certification efforts are out there. OrangeFren is the only website I'm aware of that comes close to something of a certification, but actually that is a bond guarantee from my cursory understanding, which is related but not the same.

I'd like to link to this type of effort on the Caroasi forum website and if no such effort is underway, begin such an effort.

[PX-Z]

I'm wondering what kind of business certification efforts are out there. OrangeFren is the only website I'm aware of that comes close to something of a certification, but actually that is a bond guarantee from my cursory understanding, which is related but not the same.

What do you mean of business certification that comes close to certification from OrangeFren? That platform is an exchange AFAIK. When you're asking about crypto business certification i assumes those are like Compliance & Regulatory Certifications, Security & Custody Certifications, Legal & Ethical Certifications and etc.

[Potato Chips]

I can't find any sort of certification in Orangefren though I'm unsure we're on the same page lol.

The bond guarantee bit from your post does remind me of OrangeFren guarantee where they can refund folks if an OF-guaranteed exchange went south. Did I guess it right?

About the OF-guaranteed exchanges. They mentioned the setup to make it happen on their end:

Yes, that's correct. We hold deposits from the exchanges that participate in the OrangeFren Guarantee. This allows us to refund users directly in the event of an exchange violating its own ToS or getting hacked half way through a trade and loosing users' money.

We had to use these funds twice so far, both were cases wherein exchanges promised our users no KYC and then required it.

So a business registration or license that has some sort of insurance? CMIIW 🤔

[joniboini]

So you want to list types of certification for crypto business on your website? The only type of certification that I'm aware of is the ISO 20022 given to some alts and exchanges because they support crypto and traditional network integrations. It has nothing to do with making sure a business can repay its users or something similar, CMIIW.

I'm not sure I can trust some certificates given by some random online business either, so they'll have to be at a government level or popular enough to have enough credibility for the average joe.

[Z-tight]

You should provide more information of what you are talking about and what exactly you mean. I know that the government most times issue licenses to crypto services in order for them to be able to operate in their jurisdiction, is that what you are talking about?

and if no such effort is underway, begin such an effort.

How can you start handing out certifications to businesses, under what authority can you do that and who will recognize such a certificate.

[caroasi]

You should provide more information of what you are talking about and what exactly you mean. I know that the government most times issue licenses to crypto services in order for them to be able to operate in their jurisdiction, is that what you are talking about?

and if no such effort is underway, begin such an effort.

How can you start handing out certifications to businesses, under what authority can you do that and who will recognize such a certificate.

I'm glad you asked! There are few legal jurisdictions that require any special authority to hand out certificates of most classes. Most legal jurisdictions require special authority to hand out some classes of certification, especially professional certifications of highly controlled people classes including bankers, doctors, and teachers.

The Caroasi as a governing body of the people specifically assert authority of principle of virtue and value as our most fundamental authority, making us the first organization that could be considered a government (as a Cooperative Republic) in human history to properly root down to a specific philosophy of formation formation. We expect this will over time become obvious who is and isn't a proper authority as people break free from their shackles of the lesser authority of strength traditional to the traditional government bodies. This is detailed in reference Caroasi: Civic Development:Mesa of Cooperation as linked to through the signature and as a brief series in Rainbow Rock: Philosophic Civic Analysis.

The Caroasi is the only governing organization that I'd expect someone to be able to trust for certification of those areas of life deemed to be "more important" like banking, medical service, and so on because it has a fully and relatively discretely rooted philosophy of governance. All that said, Caroasi doesn't formally exist until there are two declared members, which so far as I know, there are not. So its authority is informal until then. In order for Caroasi to maintain its authority over the long term, it must avoid monopolistic leverage by being friendly to competition, especially members who wish to part and form their own competing groups. As an apparent first entry into the space, it will have a strong lead.

[caroasi]

I can't find any sort of certification in Orangefren though I'm unsure we're on the same page lol.

The bond guarantee bit from your post does remind me of OrangeFren guarantee where they can refund folks if an OF-guaranteed exchange went south. Did I guess it right?

About the OF-guaranteed exchanges. They mentioned the setup to make it happen on their end:

Yes, that's correct. We hold deposits from the exchanges that participate in the OrangeFren Guarantee. This allows us to refund users directly in the event of an exchange violating its own ToS or getting hacked half way through a trade and loosing users' money.

We had to use these funds twice so far, both were cases wherein exchanges promised our users no KYC and then required it.

So a business registration or license that has some sort of insurance? CMIIW 🤔

Well I suppose a registration and certification of neutral standing would be a possible starting certification. Not a certification of good standing, as that is something that could be misidentified as a more complete review. I believe the concept would be that an organization has pledged to human civility, has at least an equal but not lesser number of negative reviews than positive reviews. This would be primarily designed for a new business which does not yet have any reviews. I also suppose there could be layers with avoiding a license in favor of a bond as is already being done by OrangeFren. So potential layers would be registration -> certification -> bonded guarantee.

A business would register either for free or for a small fee. Then they would be certified based on their publicly available information such as being placed in neutral or good standing. Then they could offer bonded guarantees with money placed with a trusted cohesor (ref  Caroasi: Rainbow Cooperative:Cohesor link in signature). That is my initial thought.

[Z-tight]

Snip

To be honest, i am having a hard time understanding what you are saying.

The Caroasi as a governing body of the people specifically assert authority of principle of virtue and value as our most fundamental authority, making us the first organization that could be considered a government (as a Cooperative Republic) in human history to properly root down to a specific philosophy of formation formation.

What the hell is Caroasi and how is it a governing body, i have checked the internet and i find nothing of what you are talking about. You also said your organization could be called a 'government', how? Is anyone else understanding this or is the fault from me, because to me this is sounding like too many words without any substance.

[Potato Chips]

Well I suppose a registration and certification of neutral standing would be a possible starting certification. Not a certification of good standing, as that is something that could be misidentified as a more complete review. I believe the concept would be that an organization has pledged to human civility, has at least an equal but not lesser number of negative reviews than positive reviews. This would be primarily designed for a new business which does not yet have any reviews. I also suppose there could be layers with avoiding a license in favor of a bond as is already being done by OrangeFren. So potential layers would be registration -> certification -> bonded guarantee.

A business would register either for free or for a small fee. Then they would be certified based on their publicly available information such as being placed in neutral or good standing. Then they could offer bonded guarantees with money placed with a trusted cohesor (ref  Caroasi: Rainbow Cooperative:Cohesor link in signature). That is my initial thought.

I'm also having a hard time comprehending the concept, op. 😅

So did you want to be a trusted service aggregator that for some reason gives out certification as a sign of good standing and sort of a backing document that the said service has placed reserved deposits in case things go south. Correct?

Or would something like an FCA be closer?

In any case, this sounds like it requires immense trust from people which is the hard part.

[caroasi]

Snip

To be honest, i am having a hard time understanding what you are saying.

The Caroasi as a governing body of the people specifically assert authority of principle of virtue and value as our most fundamental authority, making us the first organization that could be considered a government (as a Cooperative Republic) in human history to properly root down to a specific philosophy of formation formation.

What the hell is Caroasi and how is it a governing body, i have checked the internet and i find nothing of what you are talking about. You also said your organization could be called a 'government', how? Is anyone else understanding this or is the fault from me, because to me this is sounding like too many words without any substance.

Search engines no longer function well to find more important small websites as direct name matches no longer lead to direct pages with those exact names. I suppose that is intentional suppression, though I don't know. I know that before when I typed Caroasi the only actual domain name that uses this on the entire internet is caroasi.freeforums.net and therefore that should be the top result.

I'm saying certification agencies are good ways to offer a starting point to decide if a cryptocurrency business is worthy of trying or not. And if no certification agency exists, then I'll create one. As to whether someone will trust it or not they might have two basic choices... either guess based on nothing but their gut feeling, or guess based on something as an actual analysis. The guessing based on a new certification agency would be the wiser of the two options.

Why would someone trust a random person on the internet? That is exactly how people are finding cryptocurrency businesses like OrangeFren. They see random people they've never met on Bitcointalk.org linking to OrangeFren signatures, presumably paid advertisement, and they click on it. But in the case of Caroasi, we offer the most comprehensive original philosophy of governance anywhere, which I believe merits a cursory level of trust. But it would be much better if a random person on the internet started a certification process, and someone could see that OrangeFren is a certified cryptocurrency business and therefore less risky than ones that don't have such a certification.

Logically speaking, for a business to create an entire false certification agency just to show their business is certified, is unprecidented. Never happened so far as I know, though technically that is more possible now with AI generated content. Therefore some random person's certification agency is vastly superior for avoiding scams than a guess and try based strategy.

[caroasi]

Well I suppose a registration and certification of neutral standing would be a possible starting certification. Not a certification of good standing, as that is something that could be misidentified as a more complete review. I believe the concept would be that an organization has pledged to human civility, has at least an equal but not lesser number of negative reviews than positive reviews. This would be primarily designed for a new business which does not yet have any reviews. I also suppose there could be layers with avoiding a license in favor of a bond as is already being done by OrangeFren. So potential layers would be registration -> certification -> bonded guarantee.

A business would register either for free or for a small fee. Then they would be certified based on their publicly available information such as being placed in neutral or good standing. Then they could offer bonded guarantees with money placed with a trusted cohesor (ref  Caroasi: Rainbow Cooperative:Cohesor link in signature). That is my initial thought.

I'm also having a hard time comprehending the concept, op. 😅

So did you want to be a trusted service aggregator that for some reason gives out certification as a sign of good standing and sort of a backing document that the said service has placed reserved deposits in case things go south. Correct?

Or would something like an FCA be closer?

In any case, this sounds like it requires immense trust from people which is the hard part.

It sounds like more of a need than a want given no such business is doing this, but yes, the point is to have a service aggregator that for the specific reason of helping people avoid scams gives out certification as a sign of good standing, like the way the UL helps people avoid electrical fires by certification of electrical components as a sign of safe equipment.

As someone who adopts duties of civility, I have a duty to participate in advancing our economy, and have been considering ways to do so.

[Z-tight]

I'm saying certification agencies are good ways to offer a starting point to decide if a cryptocurrency business is worthy of trying or not. And if no certification agency exists, then I'll create one.

So you want to offer certification to crypto services, what kind of crypto services do you intend giving certifications to, exchanges? And what criteria are you going to use to determine that a service is safe and worthy to use. I don't even see how this makes sense or how it is going to work, exchanges already receive license to operate from governments in certain jurisdiction, the point is certification or licenses are given by higher authorities.

Why would someone trust a random person on the internet? That is exactly how people are finding cryptocurrency businesses like OrangeFren.

Take note that OrangeFren does not hand out certifications like you are attempting to do. What they do is help users find the 'best' no-kyc services in the industry, and they do this by comparing their different rates. I am simply being honest with you, what you are trying to do does not look feasible to me.

[caroasi]

I'm saying certification agencies are good ways to offer a starting point to decide if a cryptocurrency business is worthy of trying or not. And if no certification agency exists, then I'll create one.

So you want to offer certification to crypto services, what kind of crypto services do you intend giving certifications to, exchanges? And what criteria are you going to use to determine that a service is safe and worthy to use. I don't even see how this makes sense or how it is going to work, exchanges already receive license to operate from governments in certain jurisdiction, the point is certification or licenses are given by higher authorities.

Why would someone trust a random person on the internet? That is exactly how people are finding cryptocurrency businesses like OrangeFren.

Take note that OrangeFren does not hand out certifications like you are attempting to do. What they do is help users find the 'best' no-kyc services in the industry, and they do this by comparing their different rates. I am simply being honest with you, what you are trying to do does not look feasible to me.

Cryptocurrency-accepting businesses of any type respectful of basic human rights will be eligible for certification. There is no Earthly higher governance authority available than Caroasi... so far as I know Caraosi has the highest available authority by its adherence to the Rainbow Rock philosophy of governance and Caroasi method of governance. Authority is derived from virtues and values, and Caroasi has the best virtues and values for a governing authority. Actually that is very easy as there is no competing governments that ground their authority in virtue and value properly, but rather they attempt a might makes right authority, which is substantially invalid. Evidence of that authority is in the quality of the Caroasi publication I link to in my signature. I think this will be fun and easy.

[Z-tight]

There is no Earthly higher governance authority available than Caroasi...

Lol, very funny my friend, there is no need to drag this any further as you are no longer being realistic here and you are just churning out statements and claims that are untrue. Nobody knows what Caroasi is, yet there is no higher authority than it, all i can say now is goodluck in handing out those certifications to crypto services.

[caroasi]

There is no Earthly higher governance authority available than Caroasi...

Lol, very funny my friend, there is no need to drag this any further as you are no longer being realistic here and you are just churning out statements and claims that are untrue. Nobody knows what Caroasi is, yet there is no higher authority than it, all i can say now is goodluck in handing out those certifications to crypto services.

I laugh at your false authorities as complete jokes myself, so the feeling is mutual. Yesterday the state of New York actually claimed authority to force vaccinate Amish school children against the parents authority. Obviously most people have more authority than the state of New York as proven by the fact the Amish children will NOT be force vaccinated. So the proof is in real life, not your imaginary situations. Contrary to your toxic false philosophy of authority, might doesn't make right. The state of New York has no ground in human rights philosophy, therefore no authority at all.

Certifying authorities like the FDA clearly get it wrong constantly, its quite amazing you place your faith in an organization that literally has no ideas whatsoever how to handle the well known common fact there is a substantial amount of plastic in most human brains. These people you are looking to as your authority are jokes, and quite funny jokes at that.

I've seen enough in courtrooms to know that virtue and value tear down falsely asserted government authority like a hot knife to butter to those brave enough to assert it. And I'm giving you a specific example of the state of New York so there is no questions here as to what happens when evil prevails in government.

[dkbit98]

I don't know what type of certification you are looking for, but I know websites that have rating for services, something like kycnot.me for example.

What do you mean of business certification that comes close to certification from OrangeFren? That platform is an exchange AFAIK.

OrangeFeen is not and exchange, it's more like aggregator that finds best rates for specific trading pairs, so they are not directly holding or exchanging anything.
They are also offering similar service for other products like crypto cards, again they are just providing links to third party services.

 

[hugeblack]

Let's assume, for example, that there is such a thing as these certificates. They mean nothing, as a service could meet the minimum compliance standards and obtain this certificate, then defraud users.

Therefore, if crypto exchange a cash exchange, it must obtain the appropriate license.
For no KYC crypto (without dealing with banking services), you don't need such a license. You need to gain trust.

[caroasi]

Let's assume, for example, that there is such a thing as these certificates. They mean nothing, as a service could meet the minimum compliance standards and obtain this certificate, then defraud users.

Therefore, if crypto exchange a cash exchange, it must obtain the appropriate license.
For no KYC crypto (without dealing with banking services), you don't need such a license. You need to gain trust.

I could just as easily say gaining trust means nothing, as the service could then gain trust, then defraud users. But no, they must go through specialized customer reviews in order to get good standing, and importantly they must continue to get too reviews over time to maintain good standing. So getting certified will mean they have not defrauded at least some customers.

Instead of telling me why I can't be helpful, how about telling me what is helpful for establishing trust and how I can help?

I appreciate the feedback, the cynicism against certificates here is quite exaggerated. Anyone who has purchased a product with a Certificate of Authenticity should know that you don't need to be a government to issue one, and I when telling people I am part of a government they insinuate that because my government isn't based on unprovoked gun-point violence against innocent people, its authority should be rejected. They also imply nobody should be allowed to start a new government from scratch, which is just crazy or cruel, or a mix of both. Caroasi's authority is explicitly derived instead by virtue and value, the authority more valid than any other except divine authority, and not necessary for certification. All this cynicism is quite unhelpful.