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Author Topic: What do you want in a new Bitcoin Exchange?  (Read 5251 times)
nmat
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December 26, 2011, 12:01:26 AM
 #21

[...]
- Ruxum had 'wall street security' and support for lots of currencies (the last trade at Ruxum was 2 days ago).
[...]

Isn't Ruxum running a "private beta"? So this should be a low user/volume site by definition.

It's one of those "private betas" where you get a discount for inviting people - basically anyone can get in. There was some action in the first weeks, but then it died: http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/ruxumUSD#rg180zm1g10zm2g25zvzcv
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December 26, 2011, 12:04:05 AM
 #22

No offense, but if you're asking what is needed in a new exchange then you probably shouldn't be in this already saturated market. It should be blindingly obvious.

You can't do it right doesn't mean no one can't. In what way is a monopoly market saturated? The only possibility I can imagine is natural monopoly. Then you should shut down every exchange that is not Mt. Gox.

The problem right now is every new exchange is just another Intersango.

I hope the OP aims to be the next NASDAQ.

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December 26, 2011, 12:24:10 AM
 #23

The problem right now is every new exchange is just another Intersango.

I hope the OP aims to be the next NASDAQ.

So what would it take to be the next NASDAQ? Let me take the list on your first post:

Quote
1 Use things like Redis for order book to make trading super fast. (At least 10,000 orders per second.)
2 Build very good APIs, like TCP APIs.
3 You don't have to accept Mt. Gox codes, but you can be the first exchange to accept Mt. Gox green address for instant funding.
4 Put your bank in Singapore or Hong Kong. Singapore banks can sometimes do amazing same-day wire transfers.
5 Give incentive to developers who develop bots, and give them flexible authentication options.
6 Very cheap fees, at most 0.1%. Remember, 0.6% for currency trading is ridiculous. ICBC Bank (China) charges individual customers 0.2% spread for USD/CNY exchange, and CNY is not even a free market currency like USD.

These are nice features, I agree. But do you think that an exchange with these features that launches right now can get more than 1% of total market volume?

EDIT: just for reference, here is the chart
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December 26, 2011, 02:13:19 AM
 #24

The problem right now is every new exchange is just another Intersango.

I hope the OP aims to be the next NASDAQ.

So what would it take to be the next NASDAQ? Let me take the list on your first post:

Quote
1 Use things like Redis for order book to make trading super fast. (At least 10,000 orders per second.)
2 Build very good APIs, like TCP APIs.
3 You don't have to accept Mt. Gox codes, but you can be the first exchange to accept Mt. Gox green address for instant funding.
4 Put your bank in Singapore or Hong Kong. Singapore banks can sometimes do amazing same-day wire transfers.
5 Give incentive to developers who develop bots, and give them flexible authentication options.
6 Very cheap fees, at most 0.1%. Remember, 0.6% for currency trading is ridiculous. ICBC Bank (China) charges individual customers 0.2% spread for USD/CNY exchange, and CNY is not even a free market currency like USD.

These are nice features, I agree. But do you think that an exchange with these features that launches right now can get more than 1% of total market volume?

EDIT: just for reference, here is the chart


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December 26, 2011, 02:18:38 AM
 #25

The problem right now is every new exchange is just another Intersango.

I hope the OP aims to be the next NASDAQ.

So what would it take to be the next NASDAQ? Let me take the list on your first post:

Quote
1 Use things like Redis for order book to make trading super fast. (At least 10,000 orders per second.)
2 Build very good APIs, like TCP APIs.
3 You don't have to accept Mt. Gox codes, but you can be the first exchange to accept Mt. Gox green address for instant funding.
4 Put your bank in Singapore or Hong Kong. Singapore banks can sometimes do amazing same-day wire transfers.
5 Give incentive to developers who develop bots, and give them flexible authentication options.
6 Very cheap fees, at most 0.1%. Remember, 0.6% for currency trading is ridiculous. ICBC Bank (China) charges individual customers 0.2% spread for USD/CNY exchange, and CNY is not even a free market currency like USD.

These are nice features, I agree. But do you think that an exchange with these features that launches right now can get more than 1% of total market volume?

EDIT: just for reference, here is the chart

If there are exchanges with these features right now I will divert all Bitcoinica volume into it. And it will have at least 25% of market volume.

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nmat
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December 26, 2011, 02:43:01 AM
 #26

...

Thanks

If there are exchanges with these features right now I will divert all Bitcoinica volume into it. And it will have at least 25% of market volume.

I think I can hear the developers typing to implement everything ASAP Wink
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December 26, 2011, 03:47:02 AM
 #27

I have been doing automated trading on some of the bitcoin exchanges (I am doing a significant portion of Tradehill's volume). I think the exchanges we have are decent considering how fast they were thrown together, but there is much room for improvement. I like most of zhoutong's suggestions and I'll throw a couple cents in here:

 - try even lower fees -- yes, I'm surprised nobody has done this yet. Or you could do what some real-world exchange (I think it was BATS?) did, and actually give equity away to the highest volume traders in your first X (3?) months of operation, proportional to their volume. This gets people interested in putting volume on your platform and aligns your interest with the high-volume traders down the road.

 - make your exchange FAST. I have speed issues with all three of mtgox, tradehill, and campbx. And when trading heats up, the exchanges often get so slow that trading intelligently is nearly impossible.
Being fast means getting away from sql-based matching engines, and using an in-memory tree-based structure.

 - there are a number of things that each of the major exchanges could do to improve their REST apis. There are features missing and some design issues. And yes, eventually the awesomest exchange will have connection-based APIs.

 - Don't be broken. It's unnerving when deposits get held up for days because of a software glitch. Or when the book is regularly crossed due to a matching engine glitch. Have a really good test environment and top-notch software people deeply involved.

Tech and feature-wise, I like bitfloor.com best. It is a solid and lightning-fast platform. It's built by somebody who knows what he's doing. Obviously, it has very little liquidity though, which makes it pretty useless until it gets some.

I think there's room for a good gold and silver bitcoin trading platform, but I think mixing it with a usd/btc exchange is probably a mistake. I would focus on one or the other, lest you do neither well. (Shameless plug: if anyone wants to team up on the gold/silver thing, send me a PM; especially if you've experience in the bullion market -- I am looking to put together a team for this).
 
If I were to start a new exchange, I would team up with the bitfloor guy and basically find a way to bring that platform more volume. Or barring that, I would at least use his matching engine (it's been open sourced), or look to it for a design to base mine on.
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December 26, 2011, 04:10:52 AM
 #28

If there are exchanges with these features right now I will divert all Bitcoinica volume into it. And it will have at least 25% of market volume.

Damn, that is quite the dangling carrot. Someone get on it!
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December 26, 2011, 04:15:32 AM
 #29

- Alt-coins

- Fixed deposit addresses, so we can deposit directly in from a pool

- Slick interface but not sluggish

- PERHAPS a downloadable app that you can exchange on your desktop?  is this a good idea?

- PERHAPS a pool built into an exchange?

if I can think of other ideas i'll post them here.

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December 26, 2011, 04:20:33 AM
 #30

Exchange should be distributed as Bitcoin itself. Private transactions between peers will reduce risk of potential legal actions. And exchanger would act similar to torrent tracker.
That would require distributed national currencies. Now how is this going to work?
Not really necessary. Private transactions over centralized systems, would be too difficult to control. I again refer to torrent model which is nicely works over centralized connection to internet providers.
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December 26, 2011, 09:31:42 AM
 #31

- Slick interface but not sluggish


Is that slick enough? Smiley

- Alt-coins
I did not look into that really, because I don't see any important alt-coins. But that's my IMHO.

- Fixed deposit addresses, so we can deposit directly in from a pool
- PERHAPS a downloadable app that you can exchange on your desktop?  is this a good idea?
- PERHAPS a pool built into an exchange?

Deposit problems are solved using green addresses standard proposed by DeepBit. Then you can deposit from trusted sources instantly.

Downloadable app - yes, it's a must really for fast trading, and we're doing that in ICBIT.

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December 26, 2011, 09:38:00 AM
 #32

Exchange should be distributed as Bitcoin itself. Private transactions between peers will reduce risk of potential legal actions. And exchanger would act similar to torrent tracker.
That would require distributed national currencies. Now how is this going to work?
Not really necessary. Private transactions over centralized systems, would be too difficult to control. I again refer to torrent model which is nicely works over centralized connection to internet providers.
But how do you want to do a SWIFT/SEPA/VISA/PayPal/whatever transfer to a decentralized system? I don't see how a decentralized system will get hooked up to the Swift network and a clearinghouse. These providers make assumptions about the nature of the entities that connect and a P2P network does not qualify.


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December 26, 2011, 06:23:09 PM
 #33

...SWIFT/SEPA/VISA/PayPal/whatever transfer to a decentralized system? I don't see how a decentralized system will get hooked up to...

I doubt I could trust such a system, but it could run entirely on bitcoin deposits much like Bitcoinica denominates all positions in +/- USD. Consider one of numerous decentralized bots, each with an account at an exchange. Users pay into a bot pool with bitcoin and thereafter trade amongst the other users of the bot account while the bot balances all trades through its exchange account(s). Could a bot register and manage accounts without any single human knowing the details and would anyone trust such a bot? I don't know, but it's interesting, and theoretically possible.

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December 26, 2011, 06:26:51 PM
 #34

I want an easy put and change orders interface. Of course this would not target those API users but rather the small people who want to toy around with BTC.

I don't trade much but as far as I know on Gox it works like this:
I have 100$.
I put in an order 50BTC@2$.
It doesn't get active cause I forgot about the fee.
I do a second order of 49BTC@2$.
Later I place a third order of 30BTC@3$.
It doesn't get active as I don't have money left so I have to cancel the other offer first.
Putting, cancelling, watching the market ... involves different tools. I use my calculator to somehow put in all my coins/$$ etc. (MtGox got better with that respect I guess).

I would rather want to have some drag and drop interface like this:

Red are my buy orders and blue my sell orders.
I can drag these in from outside and out to a recycle bin.
I am allowed to save invalid/inactive orders (C and D).
If I charge my account, these become active (and visible in the order book).
E and F are in contradiction as they sum up to more than the 20BTC that I have (blue BTC line) so the last of these would be inactive, too.
When I add/move a red/blue order, the lower red/blue line ($/BTC remaining) moves accordingly.

While dragging and at Mouse-Over I would see the exact price and amount.
Mouse-Wheel would allow me to zoom in and further adjust the Satoshis/ct.

I can switch my interface to BTC or $. The above image shows the $-view, so my 20BTC offer @ 4.2something is shown as a 84$ offer.

Finally I can set the interface to instant confirmation or to ask me for confirmation when saving my changes (default).

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December 26, 2011, 06:32:21 PM
 #35

Finally I would love to see the market depth in real time, too like on mtgoxlive within the same graph.

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December 26, 2011, 06:38:07 PM
 #36

I want an easy put and change orders interface. Of course this would not target those API users but rather the small people who want to toy around with BTC.

I don't trade much but as far as I know on Gox it works like this:
I have 100$.
I put in an order 50BTC@2$.
It doesn't get active cause I forgot about the fee.
I do a second order of 49BTC@2$.
Later I place a third order of 30BTC@3$.
It doesn't get active as I don't have money left so I have to cancel the other offer first.
Putting, cancelling, watching the market ... involves different tools. I use my calculator to somehow put in all my coins/$$ etc. (MtGox got better with that respect I guess).

I would rather want to have some drag and drop interface like this:

Red are my buy orders and blue my sell orders.
I can drag these in from outside and out to a recycle bin.
I am allowed to save invalid/inactive orders (C and D).
If I charge my account, these become active (and visible in the order book).
E and F are in contradiction as they sum up to more than the 20BTC that I have (blue BTC line) so the last of these would be inactive, too.
When I add/move a red/blue order, the lower red/blue line ($/BTC remaining) moves accordingly.

While dragging and at Mouse-Over I would see the exact price and amount.
Mouse-Wheel would allow me to zoom in and further adjust the Satoshis/ct.

I can switch my interface to BTC or $. The above image shows the $-view, so my 20BTC offer @ 4.2something is shown as a 84$ offer.

Finally I can set the interface to instant confirmation or to ask me for confirmation when saving my changes (default).

Holy crap, that's complicated.  I'll stick to price, quantity, submit thank you.  BTW, on MtGox, your fist example would be activated just fine (buy 50BTC@$2).  The fee comes out after the trade, so you would end up with 0.994*50 BTC if your order was filled.  Even if you only had $98, the order would automatically split into an active order of 49BTC@$2 and an "insufficient funds" order of 1BTC@$2.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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December 26, 2011, 07:28:33 PM
 #37

Holy crap, that's complicated.
Not really. It could be additional to the pure text based interface just to let you easily see where you have your orders. A personal market depth should not be complicated for a trader that also somehow has to understand the global market depth. Allowing to manipulate the own market depth is only logical.

I'll stick to price, quantity, submit thank you.
My main criticism was the case where I want to change an order, so you stick to delete one order, enter a quanity, enter a price and submit.

BTW, on MtGox, your fist example would be activated just fine (buy 50BTC@$2).  The fee comes out after the trade, so you would end up with 0.994*50 BTC if your order was filled.
I'm pretty sure I ran exactly into this problem. They improved a lot since then.

Even if you only had $98, the order would automatically split into an active order of 49BTC@$2 and an "insufficient funds" order of 1BTC@$2.
Splitting is definitely new.

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December 26, 2011, 07:32:35 PM
 #38

Simple 'bank -> excange', like Intersango, or better still would be to make it even easier.
Select a leverage degree per trade.
Input either in USD\local currency (GBP for me) or BTC and the other is calculated automatically.
Intelegent UI, for example if there is a "market" vs "custom" price option not then also giving "price (ignore if market)" after that while "market" is selected.

If you have a chart please make it the bitcoins charts chart as there are various different requirements here, for example I like high res but not candlesticks, and all the indicators and other things are helpfull.
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December 26, 2011, 07:59:58 PM
 #39

Holy crap, that's complicated.
Not really. It could be additional to the pure text based interface just to let you easily see where you have your orders. A personal market depth should not be complicated for a trader that also somehow has to understand the global market depth. Allowing to manipulate the own market depth is only logical.

I'll stick to price, quantity, submit thank you.
My main criticism was the case where I want to change an order, so you stick to delete one order, enter a quanity, enter a price and submit.

BTW, on MtGox, your fist example would be activated just fine (buy 50BTC@$2).  The fee comes out after the trade, so you would end up with 0.994*50 BTC if your order was filled.
I'm pretty sure I ran exactly into this problem. They improved a lot since then.

Even if you only had $98, the order would automatically split into an active order of 49BTC@$2 and an "insufficient funds" order of 1BTC@$2.
Splitting is definitely new.

The behavior I have described has been in place for at least 8 months (including on the previous trading engine).  I guess in the big scheme it may be "new".

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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December 27, 2011, 01:53:38 AM
 #40

I don't trade much but as far as I know on Gox it works like this:
I have 100$.
I put in an order 50BTC@2$.
It doesn't get active cause I forgot about the fee.
I do a second order of 49BTC@2$.

This happens at TradeHill and is really annoying. CampBX has a great way to solve this: a "Spend X" trade. You just need to type in the amount you want to spend and the maximum price you are willing to pay and it calculates how many BTC you can buy (including the fee).
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