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Author Topic: What's Your Take on Bitcoin Core Update V30, Knots and OP_RETURN  (Read 490 times)
BlackHatCoiner
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October 31, 2025, 04:27:29 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1), stwenhao (1)
 #21

Why the size of the block headers is counted, and nothing else? Isn't there an assumption, that only block headers will be kept for historical data?
I interpret that part as what SPV nodes will have to download, as an absolute minimum. Next to the block header description, under "Simplified Payment Verification", he writes:
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It is possible to verify payments without running a full network node. A user only needs to keep a copy of the block headers of the longest proof-of-work chain, which he can get by querying network nodes until he's convinced he has the longest chain, and obtain the Merkle branch linking the transaction to the block it's timestamped in. He can't check the transaction for himself, but by linking it to a place in the chain, he can see that a network node has accepted it, and blocks added after it further confirm the network has accepted it.

He then continues on why businesses would need to verify all transactions:
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As such, the verification is reliable as long as honest nodes control the network, but is more vulnerable if the network is overpowered by an attacker. While network nodes can verify transactions for themselves, the simplified method can be fooled by an attacker's fabricated transactions for as long as the attacker can continue to overpower the network. One strategy to protect against this would be to accept alerts from network nodes when they detect an invalid block, prompting the user's software to download the full block and alerted transactions to confirm the inconsistency. Businesses that receive frequent payments will probably still want to run their own nodes for more independent security and quicker verification.

I don't think this will ever change, but how can you be certain about the validity of the chain without verifying all transactions? What ZK-proof do you have in mind?

 
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stwenhao
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October 31, 2025, 05:35:07 PM
Merited by ABCbits (5)
 #22

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but how can you be certain about the validity of the chain without verifying all transactions?
By verifying a proof, and making sure, that faking a proof is more difficult, than overwriting the whole chain. For example: if a given proof is valid, and can be faked after making 2^128 SHA-256 hashes, then it is probably safe enough to be used in practice, because the total chainwork is a number around 2^96. And if it will reach something around 2^128, then SHA-256 may no longer be collision-resistant, and we will need to make a hardened version of it (for example like SHA-1 was hardened in the past), or introduce a new hash function, and validate new coins with that.

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What ZK-proof do you have in mind?
It doesn't have to be ZK-proof specifically. Many models are possible, now it is more about encouraging people to think about different solutions, than pointless filters. And then, if enough people will think about it, then they will notice, that making such things is possible. Otherwise, some altcoins wouldn't exist, if it would be impossible. There are many chains, where you don't have to know everything, or where you don't know, who is sending what and where. Bitcoin can also use such features, it is only a matter of writing some implementation, and convincing the community, that it is better, than for example forking a network for no reason.

there's only one way to fully validate the current utxo set and that is by downloading the entire blockchain from the genesis block.
If that we're true you'd have a point, but the good news is that isn't.

It's possible using cryptography to construct proof for statements like "0xDEADBEEF is the hash of the tip of a blockchain starting at the genesis block where all rules pass, with total difficulty Y", where the proof is much smaller than the blockchain (in some cases only a few hundred bytes).

Such systems are already in production use for small programs today. Scaling them up to work over the whole bitcoin blockchain is a (considerable) engineering exercise, but I think it's inevitable-- well inevitable that the proof systems are developed to that extent.  If Bitcoin will deploy them or not will depend on if anyone is still willing to work on it.

(And you should hope these tools are developed, because we've already seen what people do when validating the history becomes too expensive-- they skip it)

Also see for example sudoku proofs: https://github.com/zcash-hackworks/pay-to-sudoku

In a similar way, as this sudoku proof, other things can be proven. You can have a bunch of arbitrary computations, and make a proof for that. For example: that the n-th Fibonacci number is equal to x. Or that a given number is prime, with 2^-256 probability of being composite, which is why elliptic curves can be generated at all, without checking 2^128 numbers, to make sure, that some 256-bit number is actually prime.

And if you read about basic proofs, and how they work, then you will notice, that validating the full chain, can be expressed as just a lot of simple computations. If you can construct a proof for all of that, and if you can combine proofs recursively, then you can prove anything, with arbitrary probability. And then, you will have a choice: to accept a proof, or to think, that someone has more computing power, than needed to overwrite the whole chain, and that some sneaky hacker found a way to fake proofs, and didn't abuse that power, to claim all 21 million coins instead, even though it would be N times easier task.

Proof of Work puzzle in mainnet, testnet4 and signet.
Furball808
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November 04, 2025, 02:12:35 PM
 #23

This is a very technical and complex discussion not everyone can partake in Grin Person A will have a different opinion than Person B because they have different understanding of how bitcoin actually works. Hence, the many variations of opinions.

Here are some examples of varying opinions: https://www.hawkinsight.com/en/article/4CCesB/

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Supporters of the OP_RETURN expansion argue that fears of bloat and spam are overblown. They suggest that with appropriate fee markets and filtering mechanisms, Bitcoin can remain secure while enabling broader use cases.

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Bitcoin advocate Jimmy Song criticized the update, stating it would worsen UTXO (Unspent Transaction Output) bloat by enabling more on-chain spam.

Some are saying, it would make the blockchain a big trashbin for internet's worst data! Imagine someone decided to throw in video, audio, meme or what not. Well what do you all think? And will Knots be able to solve it, or is it even worse than that?
There are people raising concerns about CP being on the blockchain but people argue that it’s already been technically possible . You can use knots if you have a varying opinion. But the bottomline is that there’s no one true fix to prevent anything no one would want on the blockchain because that will be censorship. How is the blockchain still better than other databases is that those encrypted won’t be as visible to anyone as much as others in other platforms like X or TikTok.
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November 04, 2025, 02:17:10 PM
 #24

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Bitcoin advocate Jimmy Song criticized the update, stating it would worsen UTXO (Unspent Transaction Output) bloat by enabling more on-chain spam.
This is a lie. It does the exact opposite of this, it prevents UTXO bloat by providing a better place to store data. People will store data whether we want them to or not. By providing them with a means to do so through OP_RETURN we avoid them spamming the UTXO set with many outputs.

Some are saying, it would make the blockchain a big trashbin for internet's worst data! Imagine someone decided to throw in video, audio, meme or what not. Well what do you all think? And will Knots be able to solve it, or is it even worse than that?
There are people raising concerns about CP being on the blockchain but people argue that it’s already been technically possible . You can use knots if you have a varying opinion.
It is not only technically possible, it is already in Bitcoin and in every other big blockchain. Even if you don't have proof that it is there, you can just assume that it is. It is everywhere on the internet too. Should we shut down the internet now?  Roll Eyes  Just forget about it.

But the bottomline is that there’s no one true fix to prevent anything no one would want on the blockchain because that will be censorship.
Even if there was full centralized censorship, there would still be ways to distort and encode the data to trick the censors into approving it. It is ridiculous really.

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