Bitcoin Hardware wallet, which is the simplest of them all?

[satscraper]

Let's say you have a old man who you want to gift a Bitcoin hardware wallet, around that age of 72, which Bitcoin hardware wallet do you think is the most simplest for this age range?

I think the simplest hardware wallet would be in card format, like Tangem. Elderly users may have memory problems that prevent them from safely keeping track of things like PIN or seed phrases. Tangem offers the seedless mode that doesn’t require remembering either PIN or SEED. Tangem cards ^{(three are recommended)} go it alone and include the backup option. Here is the relevant thread.

[Forsyth Jones]

Any wallet can be simple, with a good balance of features for intermediate and advanced users. I believe models like the Trezor Model T, Safe 3, Safe 5, or Safe 7 meet the requirements, as Trezor is a plug-and-play device, its native software is the Trezor Suite, which provides all the instructions you need (initialization, restoration, etc).

It's self-intuitive, and I recommend it for beginners and advanced users. Once a person becomes accustomed to to sending, receiving, understanding the BTC network and self-custody, they can move on to an air-gapped device.

However, if you want your relative to learn about air-gapped self-custody from the beginning, provided you also understand how it works and can instruct them correctly, I recommend the Passport devices - Core, Prime (not yet released, it's the most expensive).

Use the website thebitcoinhole.com to compare hardware wallets feature by feature, possibly with discounts listed.

Always purchase these devices from the official website or an authorized reseller, if possible, always buy from the manufacturer's official website.

[Pmalek]

I wouldn't recommend airgapped hardware wallets and stateless signers to someone who has zero experience with hardware devices, Bitcoin, and technology in general. That's something that should come later. Keep it simple and safe enough in the beginning. I would agree with the majority here and say that the older gentleman should go with Trezor. Someone more experienced than him should teach him the basics and tell him to read about how to use the device on Trezor's website. There are learning materials there. He can even pay for 1-on-1 coaching by someone from the company if he wants to. Also, there are plenty of videos on YouTube to help.

I wouldn't agree with satscraper and the suggestion to use Tangem. They are simple to use. That's true. They are not safe, though. They are not open-source, and there have been security incidents with this company recently, where seeds have leaked. They failed in securing the main objective of what a hardware wallet is supposed to do: not allow private keys to leave the device.   

[Satofan44]

I wouldn't recommend airgapped hardware wallets and stateless signers to someone who has zero experience with hardware devices, Bitcoin, and technology in general.

People tend to write all sorts of shit in these threads hoping to pocket some merit, even when they have no idea what they are talking about. Such wallets are for people who have a considerable amount of money in Bitcoin and knowledge, they are not for anyone else. This means that they probably apply to less than 1% of the users. To those that would reject this, it is clear that they are idiots. One does not build a huge safe to protect $1000 of cash, unless one is stupid. Those that want to play around with wallets and learn more, they are welcome to try these. However, they should not be recommended widely.

That's something that should come later. Keep it simple and safe enough in the beginning. I would agree with the majority here and say that the older gentleman should go with Trezor. Someone more experienced than him should teach him the basics and tell him to read about how to use the device on Trezor's website. There are learning materials there. He can even pay for 1-on-1 coaching by someone from the company if he wants to. Also, there are plenty of videos on YouTube to help.

Agreed.

I wouldn't agree with satscraper and the suggestion to use Tangem. They are simple to use. That's true. They are not safe, though. They are not open-source, and there have been security incidents with this company recently, where seeds have leaked. They failed in securing the main objective of what a hardware wallet is supposed to do: not allow private keys to leave the device.   

Also agreed. Some users have an obsession with novelty. There is no reason to promote any new wallet over Trezor unless it is significantly better. For this to be even possible it has to first be open-source. Without that, no matter what features it has, it can not be better.

[satscraper]

I wouldn't agree with satscraper and the suggestion to use Tangem. They are simple to use. That's true. They are not safe, though. They are not open-source, and there have been security incidents with this company recently, where seeds have leaked. They failed in securing the main objective of what a hardware wallet is supposed to do: not allow private keys to leave the device.  

Read my post carefully. It points to Tangem’s seedless mode. Without SEED there are no problems, regardless of whether they arise from the owner or from others..

Once again, OP question is focused on the simplest hardware wallet for elderly.

The elderly would be satisfied with the simplicity of Tangem.

Give them hardware wallet on steroids like ColdCard MK4, and they’ll freeze their brains. Ask those who don’t remember where they put their glasses about SEED, and their heads will freak out.

Hardware wallet safety is the relative thing ^{especially when we’re talking about the elderly}. In my view, they are more likely to lose their funds with fancy, schmancy hardware wallet than with Tangem.

[Pmalek]

Read my post carefully. It points to Tangem’s seedless mode. Without SEED there are no problems, regardless of whether they arise from the owner or from others..

I overlooked that you were writing about the seedless mode. Still, it wouldn't be my choice. Tangem's seedless mode never shows the user the actual seed, right? If the elderly person losses his cards or breaks them, his crypto is gone. The seed and keys are stored within the card's secure element, and the user can never see it in plain text. It's both a pro and a con, depending on the situation. You mentioned yourself that the elderly are forgetful. They can misplace their cards, leave them somewhere, wash them in the washing machine, etc. The cards are supposed to be water resistant, though, so they might still work even if washed. Btw, would the card break in half or get destroyed if I put it in the back pocket of my jeans and sat on it?

With Tangem, you are stuck with their mobile app only. The cards don't work with third-party software. Coin control options are very limited. You still only have one bitcoin address, right? I mean, it's 2025. How hard can it be to support what other wallets have had for years and allow users to generate multiple bitcoin addresses? Someone also mentioned that Tangem's fee customization is limited. 

[satscraper]

Read my post carefully. It points to Tangem’s seedless mode. Without SEED there are no problems, regardless of whether they arise from the owner or from others..

I overlooked that you were writing about the seedless mode. Still, it wouldn't be my choice. Tangem's seedless mode never shows the user the actual seed, right? If the elderly person losses his cards or breaks them, his crypto is gone. The seed and keys are stored within the card's secure element, and the user can never see it in plain text. It's both a pro and a con, depending on the situation. You mentioned yourself that the elderly are forgetful. They can misplace their cards, leave them somewhere, wash them in the washing machine, etc. The cards are supposed to be water resistant, though, so they might still work even if washed. Btw, would the card break in half or get destroyed if I put it in the back pocket of my jeans and sat on it?

Then, what wallet would you suggest for the elderly that cannot be easily lost, either physically or virtually ^{meaning SEED/PIN/passwords/passphrases etc.}.?

In my view, following the logic of loss or breakage none of the available hardware wallets are suitable for them.

I believe that seedless wallets in card format are the best option for this group.

With Tangem, you are stuck with their mobile app only. The cards don't work with third-party software.  

In this case, it is plus rather than minus.

Elderly people are very slow at learning new things.

Coin control options are very limited.

Do you really think the elderly could grasp it?

Judging by this forum, many youngsters cannot understand it either.

generate multiple bitcoin addresses? Someone also mentioned that Tangem's fee customization is limited.  

See above.

P.S. Tangem was used as an example because I have hands-on experience with it. There are probably other wallets in this form factor with similar functionality from different vendors.

[dkbit98]

I overlooked that you were writing about the seedless mode. Still, it wouldn't be my choice.  

This mode is so stupid that it already exposed seeds from their tangem wallet crap, so just tRuSt'em bro
I would never suggest anyone to use tangem closed source wallet, and someone can't save words backup than maybe bitcoin self custody is not for him.
However I do like card format for encrypted backup, and Satochip Seedkeeper is perfect for that.
Now you can even use Satochip combined with Seedsigner devices.

[Pmalek]

Then, what wallet would you suggest for the elderly that cannot be easily lost, either physically or virtually ^{meaning SEED/PIN/passwords/passphrases etc.}.?

That's just the thing. There might not be an optimal solution for them. Essentially, it becomes a question of choosing the least bad option from a number of products and services that we wouldn't recommend and use ourselves. Tangem might be on top of such a list. It supposedly gives you exclusive custody of your coins, although there isn't a way to check this and you are dependent on their cards to work with your private keys. No cards=no private keys. It's still better than a custodial exchange, even if it's for an elderly person. On top of that list of least bad options we might consider Bitkey as well. If I remember correctly, that device also doesn't show you the generated seed phrases.     

In my view, following the logic of loss or breakage none of the available hardware wallets are suitable for them.

Bitcoin isn't suitable for everyone and neither is self-custody. I wouldn't teach my parents about Bitcoin because I know they can't handle it. They can't grasp it. I can see how they use smartphones, for example, and what kind of "issues" they can't solve themselves. The questions they have after years of using them tells me they aren't ready for anything more advanced.

Do you really think the elderly could grasp it?

Judging by this forum, many youngsters cannot understand it either.

When it comes to addresses, they don't have to. Tangem could still work as any other non-custodial wallet that generates numerous addresses because it's better for privacy.

[satscraper]

I wouldn't teach my parents about Bitcoin because I know they can't handle it. They can't grasp it. I can see how they use smartphones, for example, and what kind of "issues" they can't solve themselves.

True. I wouldn’t do it with my parents either. They like tangible bills, so I don’t try to convince them otherwise, and I respect their choice.

I overlooked that you were writing about the seedless mode. Still, it wouldn't be my choice.  

This mode is so stupid that it already exposed seeds from their tangem wallet crap,

Rubbish.

Seedless mode never exposed SEED because it simply doesn’t have one. The incident happened to users who set up their wallets with SEED and then communicated with support during the following week. Those customers didn’t even check the content of the message they sent ^{though that content was designed to be editable}. Tangem fixed that bug which, by the way, was related to their mobile app.

[dkbit98]

Rubbish.

Correct.
Tangem is 100% rubbish crap.

[Pmalek]

Seedless mode never exposed SEED because it simply doesn’t have one.

I think it would be more correct to say that seedless mode doesn't give its user access to and control of the seed that generates all keys instead of saying that the seed doesn't exist. The seed exists and is stored in the secure element of the Tangem card. Whether or not that seed can leak from those cards is not something anyone except the people at Tangem can know. Ledger poked the devil with their seed extraction work, and we now know what is possible. It's just a question of whether companies will do it or not, or if a malicious person somewhere will discover a way to abuse it.

[Meuserna]

Seedless mode never exposed SEED because it simply doesn’t have one.

Every wallet has a seed.

You're confusing Seed Phrase with Seed, most likely because Tangem is saying "Seedless" as a marketing term when they actually mean "Without-A-Seed-Phrase."

Tangem wallets still have a master seed, or root secret. Every deterministic wallet has one. Tangem doesn't let the user know it, which means they don't let the user make a paper and metal backup of it... which means they lock the user into their products.

I think these so-called seedless wallets are poison.

A human readable backup is an incredible form of safety and security. Yes, human readable backups require the user to store the backup somewhere safe. Anyone who can't do that shouldn't be doing self custody, because anyone who isn't ready for the responsibility of storing 12 or 24 words isn't ready for the responsibility of self custody.

Edited to add:

Rubbish.

Correct.
Tangem is 100% rubbish crap.

...and also this. 100% this.

[satscraper]

Seedless mode never exposed SEED because it simply doesn’t have one.

I think it would be more correct to say that seedless mode doesn't give its user access to and control of the seed that generates all keys instead of saying that the seed doesn't exist. The seed exists and is stored in the secure element of the Tangem card. Whether or not that seed can leak from those cards is not something anyone except the people at Tangem can know. Ledger poked the devil with their seed extraction work, and we now know what is possible. It's just a question of whether companies will do it or not, or if a malicious person somewhere will discover a way to abuse it.

This is correct but I was taking about SEED rather about seed. Seedless means no SEED^{in capital} ≡ seed phrase rather then no seed≡raw entropy generated by wallet to derive its private keys using specific cryptographic procedure. That raw entropy is the stuff in SE.

The incident referenced by dkbit98 pertained to the leakage of SEED rather than seed.

~

I would appreciate it if, in the future, you tried to understand the content of the discussion before offering your two cents.