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Author Topic: I miss the Soviet Union.  (Read 15459 times)
TECSHARE
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January 13, 2019, 07:15:51 AM
 #81

I'm talking about other famines.  When have you mentioned a famine that you didn't think was connected to Marxism?  I'll apologize if you show me I was wrong in that accusation.  You never referenced other famines such as the Bengal famine caused by the British because that wouldn't allow you to pretend economic ideology creates famine.  Again, my point was that every other empire has done awful things.  ALL empires are evil but not all of the accomplishments that come out of them are.  That is what I mean by asking you to process nuance.  In a nutshell, awful people can do great things and great people can do awful things.

We know people died in the famine but you seem to not understand the definition of genocide.  Genocide requires intent to kill a specific group of people.  There is no evidence of intent in this case so its unknown whether or not genocide took place.  Its a very strong term.  You can't just say a bunch of people dying is genocide.  

There is not gymnastics.  People dying in a famine is awful and clearly not among the list of positive accomplishments I'm referring to.  I made it clear I don't think they were saints.  No every nation did not achieve the same.  No other nation came close because Soviet competitors were already hyperdeveloped by the 20s.  I'm talking about tangible accomplishments too.   For example, No other nation put the first man in space.  This was evidence of their complete superiority in science and technology.   Imagine if Yemen became the leading global superpower by 2060.  That would be impressive regardless of how they got there.  Thats the type of development we are talking about.

No other nation had nearly the amount of technological or medical advances in the same time period and the nations that had similar progress, did so through huge government projects and not through privately owned capitalist ventures.
And thats where we connect back to OP.  The Soviets had so many great innovations that influenced the US and other nations  to improve worker conditions and expand government programs in order to keep up.  The US actually "won" in many ways because Russia putting a man in space inspired everyone to want to collectively invest in technology.  The NASA budget was increased by 500% that year in order to catch up with the Soviets.  It would have taken capitalism several more decades to find investors to finance such massive endeavors privately.  Many of the technological advancements we enjoy today are only here because of subsequent, publicly funded NASA research.

Yes yes, it is always something other than what you just said you meant. Right and wrong are completely subjective, just perpetually keep moving those goal posts until everything is complete nonsense and you know one is going to bother to try to keep up. Then you follow up with more whataboutisms and non sequiturs.

The whole world had similar rises in quality of life and life expectancy, reduction in infant mortality as a direct result of the industrial revolution, which was a direct result of capitalist policies. This is yet another example in an endless stream of examples of Socialists and Communists attempting to constantly claim credit for everything positive capitalism does, and blame it for everything negative Socialism and Communism causes from being implemented. You don't care about reality. You care about selling your wares of collectivized narcissism. Russia went to space as a result of capturing Nazi scientists, as did the US, but this is just YET ANOTHER red herring to distract from your shifting goal posts when I call you on your horse shit.


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January 13, 2019, 08:01:22 AM
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 #82

I don't miss USRR
Current Russia is similar at  smaller size
Power and good economic USA situation was not because of USSR because USSR was from 1918 but because USA did very big money on second war
Europe was destroyed by war and because of that dollar became world reserve currency
we can look at that like a smart plan
Nazi was funded by Jewish American banks Nazi Germany has got huge loans from US banks
what from investment point of view was very risky
Germany that time had really bad credit score
His Marka currency after 1929 crash was worth nothing Germany were paying huge repatriation but US banks gave Germany loans
And USA was no destroyed There was no war on US territory
That war was hard to imagine
There is told that Germany is responsible for 50 mln of dead people i can tell you that many of that cases was caused by USSR terror
You are saying about workers USSR was one big terror machine Hitler and Nazi Germany was kids compare to USSR terror
It looks like you don't know history and some naked facts and hidden facts
Ideology political systems are just empty words to get power over the world.

 
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January 14, 2019, 02:38:53 AM
 #83

I'm talking about other famines.  When have you mentioned a famine that you didn't think was connected to Marxism?  I'll apologize if you show me I was wrong in that accusation.  You never referenced other famines such as the Bengal famine caused by the British because that wouldn't allow you to pretend economic ideology creates famine.  Again, my point was that every other empire has done awful things.  ALL empires are evil but not all of the accomplishments that come out of them are.  That is what I mean by asking you to process nuance.  In a nutshell, awful people can do great things and great people can do awful things.

We know people died in the famine but you seem to not understand the definition of genocide.  Genocide requires intent to kill a specific group of people.  There is no evidence of intent in this case so its unknown whether or not genocide took place.  Its a very strong term.  You can't just say a bunch of people dying is genocide.  

There is not gymnastics.  People dying in a famine is awful and clearly not among the list of positive accomplishments I'm referring to.  I made it clear I don't think they were saints.  No every nation did not achieve the same.  No other nation came close because Soviet competitors were already hyperdeveloped by the 20s.  I'm talking about tangible accomplishments too.   For example, No other nation put the first man in space.  This was evidence of their complete superiority in science and technology.   Imagine if Yemen became the leading global superpower by 2060.  That would be impressive regardless of how they got there.  Thats the type of development we are talking about.

No other nation had nearly the amount of technological or medical advances in the same time period and the nations that had similar progress, did so through huge government projects and not through privately owned capitalist ventures.
And thats where we connect back to OP.  The Soviets had so many great innovations that influenced the US and other nations  to improve worker conditions and expand government programs in order to keep up.  The US actually "won" in many ways because Russia putting a man in space inspired everyone to want to collectively invest in technology.  The NASA budget was increased by 500% that year in order to catch up with the Soviets.  It would have taken capitalism several more decades to find investors to finance such massive endeavors privately.  Many of the technological advancements we enjoy today are only here because of subsequent, publicly funded NASA research.

Yes there was lot of technology improvements and discovering  many on the technolgy medicine alternative technology
Medicine is f area of my interesting sp i know some of them
There was also a great that after developing or testing something ussr were giving that to his people very much for free
For example neo selen used by astronauts after comeback from space to protect his immunology system
Many of technology medicine devices were very simple to use based on medicine used by native Siberian  tribes.available to use on battlefield
Reason was always the same to have healthy society to  for war ready for war at any moment
Russia didn't have Big Pharma and even now Putin is not recommending chemical medicine  use

Many of  USSR citizens  left Russia in 1992 look Vitalik he is example
Many especially IT specialist went to Israel over 1 mln of people
They have created power of Israel IT best specialist best students etc
But Russia is soul dance music and singing
Russian like anybody in the earth are loving art
The most painful sanction for them was that cultural exchange was limited
East of Europe is incredible but it possible to talk about it many hours

 
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January 14, 2019, 05:57:30 PM
 #84

Responding to the thread topic:

That's how people will look unto this day (in history too) of Theresa May's presentation at the House of Commons and wish they had supported the Brexit deal.

Morale: The value of a possessed goods isn't known until it is lost.


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January 16, 2019, 08:04:55 AM
 #85

I'm talking about other famines.  When have you mentioned a famine that you didn't think was connected to Marxism?  I'll apologize if you show me I was wrong in that accusation.  You never referenced other famines such as the Bengal famine caused by the British because that wouldn't allow you to pretend economic ideology creates famine.  Again, my point was that every other empire has done awful things.  ALL empires are evil but not all of the accomplishments that come out of them are.  That is what I mean by asking you to process nuance.  In a nutshell, awful people can do great things and great people can do awful things.

We know people died in the famine but you seem to not understand the definition of genocide.  Genocide requires intent to kill a specific group of people.  There is no evidence of intent in this case so its unknown whether or not genocide took place.  Its a very strong term.  You can't just say a bunch of people dying is genocide.  

There is not gymnastics.  People dying in a famine is awful and clearly not among the list of positive accomplishments I'm referring to.  I made it clear I don't think they were saints.  No every nation did not achieve the same.  No other nation came close because Soviet competitors were already hyperdeveloped by the 20s.  I'm talking about tangible accomplishments too.   For example, No other nation put the first man in space.  This was evidence of their complete superiority in science and technology.   Imagine if Yemen became the leading global superpower by 2060.  That would be impressive regardless of how they got there.  Thats the type of development we are talking about.

No other nation had nearly the amount of technological or medical advances in the same time period and the nations that had similar progress, did so through huge government projects and not through privately owned capitalist ventures.
And thats where we connect back to OP.  The Soviets had so many great innovations that influenced the US and other nations  to improve worker conditions and expand government programs in order to keep up.  The US actually "won" in many ways because Russia putting a man in space inspired everyone to want to collectively invest in technology.  The NASA budget was increased by 500% that year in order to catch up with the Soviets.  It would have taken capitalism several more decades to find investors to finance such massive endeavors privately.  Many of the technological advancements we enjoy today are only here because of subsequent, publicly funded NASA research.

Yes yes, it is always something other than what you just said you meant. Right and wrong are completely subjective, just perpetually keep moving those goal posts until everything is complete nonsense and you know one is going to bother to try to keep up. Then you follow up with more whataboutisms and non sequiturs.

The whole world had similar rises in quality of life and life expectancy, reduction in infant mortality as a direct result of the industrial revolution, which was a direct result of capitalist policies. This is yet another example in an endless stream of examples of Socialists and Communists attempting to constantly claim credit for everything positive capitalism does, and blame it for everything negative Socialism and Communism causes from being implemented. You don't care about reality. You care about selling your wares of collectivized narcissism. Russia went to space as a result of capturing Nazi scientists, as did the US, but this is just YET ANOTHER red herring to distract from your shifting goal posts when I call you on your horse shit.

Strange how obtaining some jewish scientists was all it took for a dirt poor country to become the most technologically advanced in the world. Its almost as if some sort of system and organization was in place that allowed them to take advantage of that expertise and mobilze production in order to quickly advance.  
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January 16, 2019, 09:30:56 AM
 #86

Strange how obtaining some jewish scientists was all it took for a dirt poor country to become the most technologically advanced in the world. Its almost as if some sort of system and organization was in place that allowed them to take advantage of that expertise and mobilze production in order to quickly advance.  

What in the fuck are you rambling about now? Is this yet another extended distraction from the genocide of hundreds of millions Communism is responsible for? Of course it is!


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January 16, 2019, 11:32:02 PM
 #87

Strange how obtaining some jewish scientists was all it took for a dirt poor country to become the most technologically advanced in the world. Its almost as if some sort of system and organization was in place that allowed them to take advantage of that expertise and mobilze production in order to quickly advance.  

What in the fuck are you rambling about now? Is this yet another extended distraction from the genocide of hundreds of millions Communism is responsible for? Of course it is!

This is absolute horseshit numbers on top of lying about genocide.  Around 3 million at holdomor suddenly turned to "hundreds of millions". Of course there is distraction from people dying in a thread tittled "i miss the soviet union".  Clearly, you should be able to understand that no one misses the deaths.  You are the only one who is obsessed with these awful events to the point where its the entirety of your history knowledge being used. 

When the USA is long gone and someone says "i miss the usa", iits safe to assume they won't be talking about the genocide, slavery, or use of weapons of mass destruction against civilians.
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January 17, 2019, 12:21:39 AM
 #88

Strange how obtaining some jewish scientists was all it took for a dirt poor country to become the most technologically advanced in the world. Its almost as if some sort of system and organization was in place that allowed them to take advantage of that expertise and mobilze production in order to quickly advance.  

What in the fuck are you rambling about now? Is this yet another extended distraction from the genocide of hundreds of millions Communism is responsible for? Of course it is!

This is absolute horseshit numbers on top of lying about genocide.  Around 3 million at holdomor suddenly turned to "hundreds of millions". Of course there is distraction from people dying in a thread tittled "i miss the soviet union".  Clearly, you should be able to understand that no one misses the deaths.  You are the only one who is obsessed with these awful events to the point where its the entirety of your history knowledge being used. 

When the USA is long gone and someone says "i miss the usa", iits safe to assume they won't be talking about the genocide, slavery, or use of weapons of mass destruction against civilians.

Soviet system was very oppressive. I am not sure what you are defending.

There is nothing to defend.  It was a human tragedy. 

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
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January 17, 2019, 12:56:00 AM
 #89

Strange how obtaining some jewish scientists was all it took for a dirt poor country to become the most technologically advanced in the world. Its almost as if some sort of system and organization was in place that allowed them to take advantage of that expertise and mobilze production in order to quickly advance.  

What in the fuck are you rambling about now? Is this yet another extended distraction from the genocide of hundreds of millions Communism is responsible for? Of course it is!

This is absolute horseshit numbers on top of lying about genocide.  Around 3 million at holdomor suddenly turned to "hundreds of millions". Of course there is distraction from people dying in a thread tittled "i miss the soviet union".  Clearly, you should be able to understand that no one misses the deaths.  You are the only one who is obsessed with these awful events to the point where its the entirety of your history knowledge being used. 

When the USA is long gone and someone says "i miss the usa", iits safe to assume they won't be talking about the genocide, slavery, or use of weapons of mass destruction against civilians.

Horse shit... horse shit... that sounds familiar...

go fuck yourself with your Communist horse shit.

I mean really, do you have ANY thoughts of your own or is your entire life one giant act of projection and parroting? "The USA" is not a totalitarian ideology, it is a constitutional republic. A totalitarian ideology is always a totalitarian ideology, a constitutional republic at least gives people A CHANCE for freedom.

"In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it. "

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB16A.1.GIF


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January 17, 2019, 03:09:00 AM
 #90

110 million is the max estimate and is still not "hundreds of millions".  "hundreds of millions" is the most baseless thing you've ever said and a complete lie.
Quote
First of all, it should be noted that the phrase ‘crimes
of  communism’  can  be  misleading  and  has  been  
replaced   in   this   research   review   with   the   phrase  
‘crimes of communist regimes’. Ideologies are systems
of ideas, which cannot commit crimes independently.
However,  individuals,  collectives  and  states  that  have  
defined  themselves  as  communist  have  committed  
crimes   in   the   name   of   communist   ideology,   or  
without  naming  communism  as  the  direct  source  of  
motivation  for  their  crimes.  Thus,  the  communist  
ideology  is  not  an  actor  that  can  perpetrate  crimes  
against humanity.
https://www.levandehistoria.se/sites/default/files/material_file/research-review-crimes-against-humanity.pdf

Quote
According to Klas-Göran Karlsson, discussion of the number of victims of Communist regimes has been "extremely extensive and ideologically biased".[29] Although any attempt to estimate a total number of victims of Communism depends greatly on definitions,[30] several attempts to compile previously published data have been made:
It turns out people like Rummel invoke their bias into the way they ESTIMATE deaths to make the numbers as high as they can.  A lot of methods involve demographic population estimates which assume a consistent birthrate, then use the population estimates to predict what the population should be at the end.  They count the discrepancy as people who were murdered by the regime even though a lot of that is due to the lack of a baby boom or deaths in the war.

 I have seen estimates as low as 15 million.  No one knows the real totlas for sure.

Even then, RJ Rummel's research is outdated because it was done without access to the official archives.
Quote
The American historian Timothy D. Snyder summarizes modern data, made after the opening of the Soviet archives in the 1990s, and concludes that Stalin was directly responsible for 6 million deaths along with three million indirect deaths. He notes that the estimate is far lower than the estimates of 20 million or above which were made before access to the archives. He also compares this number to the estimate of 11–12 million non-combatants killed by the Nazi regime, thereby negating claims that Stalin killed more than Hitler.

Rummel also says other governments killed 38 million total which is totally lowballed.  I can find sources that say the British killed 38 million in India alone.  Of course, if I highballed all of the numbers they would end up pretty even but if I lowballed the Soviet union numbers to 20 million and high balled British numbers I could say the British killed twice as many in India that the Soviets killed altogether.  Thats dishonest.  People have used that same logic against capitalist countries and came up with totals around 250 million deaths caused by capitalism. I won't go there because that would be fighting falsities with falsities.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/india-35-million-deaths-britain-shashi-tharoor-british-empire-a7627041.html

Here is an honest breakdown.  Follow the numbers
Quote
The 1932–33 famines killed about 4 million people according to archival data provided by Steven G. Wheatcroft, allowing for some margin of error. Furthermore, I would like to point out the research of Mark B. Tauger, professor of agricultural history and russian/soviet history at West Virginia University, who points out that there were significant natural factors that led to the famine. The exact responsibility for the famine is debated between historians is debated as being either predominantly natural factors, or the exacerbation of natural factors by soviet policy. Either way, it can’t be considered an intentional or genocidal act. Secondly, the gulags. According to the landmark 1993 paper Victims of the Soviet Penal System By Getty, Rittersporn and Zemskov, there were a total of 1.053 million deaths in the soviet prison system (gulags, settlements, etc.) during the Stalin era, with approximately half being during the second world war. It is also worth noting that the vast majority of those imprisoned in the soviet union were at any given time non-political inmates, and even the so-called “political” category of inmates was extremely broad. Vandalism and Arson could be considered political offenses, for example. The highest proportion was 33.9% in 1938 at the height of the great purge, and this number declined significantly as thousands of people falsely accused were released after the purge wounded down. It is also worth noting that the gulags were highly unexceptional for their time, and as conditions in the USSR improved as a result of industrialisation and economic, social and cultural development, the gulag mortality fell significantly. In fact, post-war gulag mortality averaged at 0.725%, compared to the 0.56% in modern russian prisons. Now, thats not to deny the gulags or downplay them, but If we used the same logic to mention american prisons, we would consider the US government responsible for the approximately 100,000 deaths in the penal system over the last 25 years. Just a quick side-note here, there are more people, both proportionally and in absolute numbers in the american penal system today then there were in the soviet penal system at its height Finally executions

The same paper we used earlier can be applied to this section quite well, as it documents the soviet judicial system in its entirety. Getty records a total of 799,455 execution sentences during the entire 1921–53 period (including executions of criminals). Now, the distinction between execution sentences and executions seems small, but its of the utmost importance to note, especially considering vast numbers of people were released on amnesty after the purge, during the war and in many other cases. Furthermore, according to Sarah Davies’s 1997 “Popular opinion in Stalins' Russia”, slightly fewer then 300,000 arrests for anti-soviet activities during the 1937-38 period, when according to Getty, 85% of executions took place. I could also go into the specified execution ratios and many, many other data points implying a significantly lower number, but for the sake of argument lets continue and assume the 800,000 figure is correct

I could go into much, much more detail about various ways these estimates could be reduced significantly, but just for the sake of argument, lets take the absolute highest estimates for every issue and assume the soviets bear full responsibility for every catastrophe, and the absolute highest reasonable estimates are correct, we get approximately the following 800,000 executions

1.053 million penal deaths

4 million famine deaths (this one in particular should NOT be included for the reasons discussed above)

and we get a total of 5.85 million, much less then 20, 60 or 100 million

Using other estimates and assigning proper responsibility, we can assume approximately 250,000 people, if we exclude prison deaths as unavoidable, along with the famine, and use more reasonable estimates for the number of executions. Now, thats not to discard the former estimates, but it is worth pointing out that lower estimates exist

In regards to totalitarianism, I would highly suggest reading “Life and Terror in Stalin’s Russia” by Robert Thurston, a professor at Miami University which sheds more light on the topic

Nothing i'm saying here is controversial, this all comes from highly-respected historians and researchers, but just as a matter of historical record, please be honest with your numbers! Bibliography:

Wheatcroft:

http://www.melgrosh.unimelb.edu/....

Tauger:

http://carlbeckpapers.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/cbp/article/view/89/90

Getty:

http://www.cercec.fr/materiaux/doc_membres/Gabor%20RITTERSPORN/Victims%20of%20the%20Gulag.pdf

Prison Mortality In the USSR (the source is in russian)

http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2007/0313/tema06.php

Prison Mortality in Modern Russia

https://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2013/02/28/russian-prisons-getting-more-lethal/

Prison Mortality in the USA

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/msp0114st.pdf

Any other sources are internally cited
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January 17, 2019, 03:23:15 AM
 #91

Cool story bro. From your own source:

"This research review does not claim to list all research
on  the  communist  regimes’  crimes  against  humanity. 
Bearing  in  mind  the  large 
number  of  books  written 
on Soviet communism in particular, and on the terror
of  the  last  decade  in  the  West  and  in  post-Soviet 
Eastern  Europe,  this  would  be  an  impossible  task."

IE your source is self admittedly incomplete and not even intended to be a complete assessment. The whataboutism is ofc up to your usual standards.



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January 17, 2019, 03:41:00 AM
 #92

That source was for the "communism cannot commit crimes" clarification.  Ideologies don't kill people, people kill people.
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January 17, 2019, 05:54:30 AM
 #93

That source was for the "communism cannot commit crimes" clarification.  Ideologies don't kill people, people kill people.


Oh I see! So the ideology is perfectly innocent! Wow! Thanks for explaining everything in such simple ways. An ideology of systemic victimization and experimental social engineering is surely innocent in all of this! Cool story Captain Postmodern. Unfortunately it requires ones to have fewer than 2 brain cells to rub together to believe.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Estimates


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January 17, 2019, 07:41:07 AM
 #94

Quote
The criticisms of some of the estimates were mostly focused on three aspects: (i) the estimates were based on sparse and incomplete data when significant errors are inevitable;[34][35][16] (ii) some critics said the figures were skewed to higher possible values;[36][w][34] and (iii) some critics argued that victims of Holodomor and other man-made famines created by Communist governments should not be counted.[37][34][38]

Even then, all of this talk of deaths is a very effective distraction away from the main discussion about the good attributes and major accomplishments of the soviet union.  Not one person ever said the soviet union was even mostly good but I let you derail the entire conversation to be about the bad things. 

Imagine a discussion about anything that has ever happened in the USA devolving into how many people have been wrecked by agent orange.
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January 17, 2019, 08:03:18 AM
 #95

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The criticisms of some of the estimates were mostly focused on three aspects: (i) the estimates were based on sparse and incomplete data when significant errors are inevitable;[34][35][16] (ii) some critics said the figures were skewed to higher possible values;[36][w][34] and (iii) some critics argued that victims of Holodomor and other man-made famines created by Communist governments should not be counted.[37][34][38]

Even then, all of this talk of deaths is a very effective distraction away from the main discussion about the good attributes and major accomplishments of the soviet union.  Not one person ever said the soviet union was even mostly good but I let you derail the entire conversation to be about the bad things.  

Imagine a discussion about anything that has ever happened in the USA devolving into how many people have been wrecked by agent orange.

Oh I see! The hundreds of millions dead are just a footnote and a distraction from the historic and varied accomplishments of the great Communist empire are they? Cool whataboutism Captain Postmodern.


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