Bitcoin Forum
December 06, 2016, 12:30:14 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: America Beyond Capitalism  (Read 6293 times)
Hawker
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 700



View Profile
January 29, 2012, 09:18:24 PM
 #21

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

"There is no consensus on the precise definition nor on how the term should be used as a historical category."

If OP would clarify which particular flavour of capitalism he thinks America is moving beyond, the thread might be more logical.

1481027414
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481027414

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481027414
Reply with quote  #2

1481027414
Report to moderator
1481027414
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481027414

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481027414
Reply with quote  #2

1481027414
Report to moderator
1481027414
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481027414

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481027414
Reply with quote  #2

1481027414
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481027414
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481027414

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481027414
Reply with quote  #2

1481027414
Report to moderator
1481027414
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481027414

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481027414
Reply with quote  #2

1481027414
Report to moderator
1481027414
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481027414

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481027414
Reply with quote  #2

1481027414
Report to moderator
cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
January 29, 2012, 09:39:32 PM
 #22

Capitalists are people who make money with money, not work. Capitalism is espoused by people who believe this is a good thing. I suppose I might too if I was born a gazillionaire.

Money is a representation of work (well pure money is). We don't have true free market capitalism in any nation in the world today, and probably never have.
Indeed. There is no evidence to suggest it.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
P4man
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
January 29, 2012, 09:51:20 PM
 #23

Money is a representation of work (well pure money is).

Bollocks.

Quote
We don't have true free market capitalism in any nation in the world today, and probably never have.

Somalia. Most of Congo. Most of Nigeria,... no state to distort or disrupt the free market there.

Kettenmonster
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 420


bool eval(bool b){return b ? b==true : b==false;}


View Profile
January 29, 2012, 10:56:47 PM
 #24

Money is a representation of work (well pure money is).
Well I don´t think so.
It can be used so to say as a compensation for work, but rarely is.
Whilst talking about work, the term energy springs to mind.
Now thinking of money being a kind of energy, which I consider a good idea. It is quite obvious that fiat money violates the rules of thermodynamics.
You can consider this a feature, but I don´t.

We don't have true free market capitalism in any nation in the world today, and probably never have.
Having a free market in the sense anybody might freely sell what he/she/it has to everybody. Is fine with me.
But truely our world is very different.
For some it´s even legal to sell things or loan money they don´t have, which I have learned to call betrayal.
This kind of capitalism combined with fiat money is a dangerous mixture.

The current economical system failed in spreading wealth, it rather opend the scissor between the poor and the rich.
Provided my perception is correct, it is time to change something. So getting beyond capitalism seems a good plan to me.

The paining (sic!) is done with the QPainter class inside the paintEvent() method.
(source: my internet)
cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
January 29, 2012, 11:07:30 PM
 #25

Money is a representation of work (well pure money is).

Bollocks.

Quote
We don't have true free market capitalism in any nation in the world today, and probably never have.

Somalia. Most of Congo. Most of Nigeria,... no state to distort or disrupt the free market there.

I would like to see a picture of a capitalist in Somalia and perhaps a peek at his/her portfolio. What investment advice does a Somalian Capitalist have to share with us proletariat?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
Hunterbunter
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 980


View Profile
January 29, 2012, 11:40:08 PM
 #26


Well, that's why I added the line "pure money". Fiat is anything but pure.

So by "pure money" do you mean money as an IOU for work done but not paid for?
cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
January 30, 2012, 12:08:54 AM
 #27

The perfect money...

You can get anything with it.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
January 30, 2012, 02:13:28 AM
 #28

Lawyers, Guns, and Money are the Rock, Paper, Scissors of the real world.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
P4man
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
January 30, 2012, 08:37:53 AM
 #29

Well, why is it bollocks?

Because money doesnt represent work, it represents wealth.

Quote
Let me guess, you are using these as examples of the failure of free market capitalism?

Not really. Yes, these are examples of failed states, where governments dont run anything in most parts of the country, and havent for decades or even centuries. No taxes are collected, no services are provided by the government outside the major cities. That leaves it to the free market to supply just about anything, from basic security to healthcare and education. The result is not quite your paradise, and believe me, its not because those Africans are not entrepreneurial.

Quote
Those countries, without knowing a damn thing about them, are most likely suffering the results of governmental collapse. In other words, the market didn't evolve to be free, it fell into chaos when the people in control were some how removed.

Whats the difference? Failed states provide good evidence of what happens when you remove governments almost completely, I assume thats your idea of a "pure free market"? It doesnt work. It cant work.

P4man
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
January 30, 2012, 10:59:26 AM
 #30

If I have no money, I have to earn it somehow. Normally I prefer to work and get paid with money, so I can "save" the fruit of my efforts for later

Or you could lend, steal or beg. Or print it. Or whatever, it has almost nothing to do with work, other than one of its many uses is to compensate for work. But its also used to to compensate crime, that doesnt mean money somehow represents crime, or does it?

I took a quick look at the histories of those countries, very quick mind you, and it seems like they've all had some form of regime change quite recently. And it also seems like they were constantly facing regime changes through out history. Also, they seem to have some kind of government currently as well.

Of course they have a government in name. But they are so ineffective outside the capital cities there might as well be none.
What you get is others filling the void. There is always a demand for power, absent a functional government its being taken by warlords, tribes, religious fractions, and quite importantly, foreign multinational oil and mining corporations that actually govern key area's in Congo and Nigeria. Free market capitalism at work. Go on a trip and see how well it works for them.

There is no reason to assume it would work any differently in any other region in the world. FWIW, Somalia, long before it was called that, was actually a vibrant and prosperous region once.

Quote
The difference is when people are governed, they give up some of their responsibility to the government. When you take it away, they are like lost children.

Thats such a ridiculous blanket nonsense statement. You think the average Nigerian, Somali or Congolese hasnt learned to take responsibility for providing for his/her family by now? They have had to do so for generations. Much good it has done to their economy.

Quote
They have to learn how to form a proper society and this takes time. You say it can't work, I disagree. I think it can work sooner in developed countries with a functioning government that provides some freedoms (e.g. the U.S.) faster than it can work in the chaos of a failed state.

Wait.. are you saying governments provide freedom?

P4man
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
January 30, 2012, 12:15:28 PM
 #31

Providing for your family isn't the only responsibility one must take. Apparently they aren't doing a very good job of protecting their resources if other civilizations are able to come in and take it. I wonder what happened? Too busy fighting among themselves throughout history to fend off attack from outsiders?

You are arguing like an 8 year old. Feel free to bump this thread in 10 years.

gewure
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


[#][#][#]


View Profile
January 31, 2012, 06:46:52 PM
 #32

without

with
Hunterbunter
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 980


View Profile
February 02, 2012, 01:05:04 PM
 #33


Well, that's why I added the line "pure money". Fiat is anything but pure.

So by "pure money" do you mean money as an IOU for work done but not paid for?

I most likely mean commodity money. Something that has evolved into money through a consensus.

I think Bitcoin fits the bill. Although the way I see it, it was created to have properties that would make it a suitable commodity money, although it never was simply a commodity (some might say it is only a commodity). So the evolution with Bitcoin isn't a commodity becoming money, but being accepted as commodity money from the start. Strange, but it seems to be working fairly well.

Money is certainly special.

Bitcoins, being a hash and unique commodity, can be accepted as a balance of trade, as can money or any other good depending on what the trader wants, and are protected as long as the hashing network remains uncompromised. It might be tempting to consider money a commodity due to it's acceptance and demand, but strictly speaking, it's not.

Either can represent different things to different people. For some they are food, for some they are luxuries, and for others they are penis lengths. Bitcoins are like money in that they are inherently in-consumable, but they are unlike money in that they cannot be easily duplicated. If you believe money to be a commodity, then I believe you might misunderstand money. I believe a more accurate way to consider money, is as your priority of access to the market of commodities. Anyone with the power to create money (banks, credit companies, govts) can put themselves in front of the line for resources, at whim.

Believing money to be a commodity, is what the issuers need the masses to believe, for them (the banks/govt/creditors) to get the most benefit out of it themselves.
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!