feedback on idea

[yonzay]

I know this is a bit degen but I wanted to know thoughts on if you guys think a bitcoin margined, bitcoin native, fully non-custodial perp dex would be a good idea to build. I don't think anything like this exists right now and much more degen things like bustabit has found success. assuming it could be built users could simply go to the website fund their non-custodial trading wallet with btc or use an existing wallet they own and start trading perps. and I know bitcoin is used in every perp platform but not quite like this. really eager to hear feedback on this idea.

[bitmover]

The only fully decentralized exchange that allows bitcoin trading is Bisq.

There are some semi decentralized like hyperliquid as well. I think thorchain might fit in this category as well

None of them accepts margin trade. It is a great challenge to build one dex exchange.

[yonzay]

The only fully decentralized exchange that allows bitcoin trading is Bisq.

There are some semi decentralized like hyperliquid as well. I think thorchain might fit in this category as well

None of them accepts margin trade. It is a great challenge to build one dex exchange.

Yep but the issue with most of these solutions is that they rely on custodial risk or bridging too. Hyperliquid can have BTC via HIP-3 but HIP-3 is just a generic custodial bridge that allows you to tokenize anything you send to it, this would not sit well with a lot of bitcoiners and it introduces risk on the operating side as well because now you expose yourself to something similar to the Drift exploit or Wormhole.

[sergiorus]

For perp dex what really matters is the speed and stability under stress (no overloads, no tx rejections).

Hyperliquid won because achieved it with its own EVM L1 chain (and because it still allows no-KYC trading, of course) with very fast finality, ability to handle and finalise many TPS.

Traders won't really care about flawed decentralisation as long as UX is flawless.

[rat03gopoh]

Yep but the issue with most of these solutions is that they rely on custodial risk or bridging too. Hyperliquid can have BTC via HIP-3 but HIP-3 is just a generic custodial bridge that allows you to tokenize anything you send to it, this would not sit well with a lot of bitcoiners and it introduces risk on the operating side as well because now you expose yourself to something similar to the Drift exploit or Wormhole.

So, what's your idea for implementing this on the native Bitcoin network without bridges and vaults? As far as I know, a DEX would need to implement smart contracts, which can't be built on Bitcoin's full L1 architecture. Yeah, that's a crazy idea, and perhaps the first of its kind.

[yonzay]

For perp dex what really matters is the speed and stability under stress (no overloads, no tx rejections).

Hyperliquid won because achieved it with its own EVM L1 chain (and because it still allows no-KYC trading, of course) with very fast finality, ability to handle and finalise many TPS.

Traders won't really care about flawed decentralisation as long as UX is flawless.

100% I'm not trying to compete with hyperliquid, you pretty much can't atp, the point of this project is to provide a non-custodial seamless experience to bitcoiners, hyperliquid has probably less than ~0.1% or less of the bitcoin supply being bridged over and used on their protocol, most of their volume is in stablecoins. What I'm trying to do is match performance and UX but all you need is a bitcoin wallet where you don't need to use a bridge or give up custody, I think their may be demand for that. But the point is I am trying to target a specific cohort. Hyperliquid would never be able to do anything like this because they are an EVM based chain.

[yonzay]

Yep but the issue with most of these solutions is that they rely on custodial risk or bridging too. Hyperliquid can have BTC via HIP-3 but HIP-3 is just a generic custodial bridge that allows you to tokenize anything you send to it, this would not sit well with a lot of bitcoiners and it introduces risk on the operating side as well because now you expose yourself to something similar to the Drift exploit or Wormhole.

So, what's your idea for implementing this on the native Bitcoin network without bridges and vaults? As far as I know, a DEX would need to implement smart contracts, which can't be built on Bitcoin's full L1 architecture. Yeah, that's a crazy idea, and perhaps the first of its kind.

it would be difficult, assuming it can be built and on par with the greats I just want to know if its something most people would think would be viable and carry real traction.

[rat03gopoh]

it would be difficult, assuming it can be built and on par with the greats I just want to know if its something most people would think would be viable and carry real traction.

Almost all crypto users own Bitcoin. You don't need to expect high trading volumes if it adheres to the principles of decentralization. Instead, it depends on how your platform's server performance handles tens or hundreds of transaction requests per second. The main obstacle I consider is that people can use the tx acceleration (RBF) mechanism to cancel liquidated positions.

[yonzay]

it would be difficult, assuming it can be built and on par with the greats I just want to know if its something most people would think would be viable and carry real traction.

Almost all crypto users own Bitcoin. You don't need to expect high trading volumes if it adheres to the principles of decentralization. Instead, it depends on how your platform's server performance handles tens or hundreds of transaction requests per second. The main obstacle I consider is that people can use the tx acceleration (RBF) mechanism to cancel liquidated positions.

yeah there are definitely a lot of technical hurdles I'd have to address, may not even be possible, but assuming it works to specification and with full integrity you think its a given it will be a high volume protocol?

[sergiorus]

For perp dex what really matters is the speed and stability under stress (no overloads, no tx rejections).

Hyperliquid won because achieved it with its own EVM L1 chain (and because it still allows no-KYC trading, of course) with very fast finality, ability to handle and finalise many TPS.

Traders won't really care about flawed decentralisation as long as UX is flawless.

100% I'm not trying to compete with hyperliquid, you pretty much can't atp, the point of this project is to provide a non-custodial seamless experience to bitcoiners, hyperliquid has probably less than ~0.1% or less of the bitcoin supply being bridged over and used on their protocol, most of their volume is in stablecoins. What I'm trying to do is match performance and UX but all you need is a bitcoin wallet where you don't need to use a bridge or give up custody, I think their may be demand for that. But the point is I am trying to target a specific cohort. Hyperliquid would never be able to do anything like this because they are an EVM based chain.

But you do realise running all that infrastructure is quite costly, right?
Perp dexes shut down not because they don't make money, they shut down because they don't make enough after all costs.

Just running it for the sake of culture won't last for long. You'll need to attract big volumes or have unreasonably high fees.

[yonzay]

For perp dex what really matters is the speed and stability under stress (no overloads, no tx rejections).

Hyperliquid won because achieved it with its own EVM L1 chain (and because it still allows no-KYC trading, of course) with very fast finality, ability to handle and finalise many TPS.

Traders won't really care about flawed decentralisation as long as UX is flawless.

100% I'm not trying to compete with hyperliquid, you pretty much can't atp, the point of this project is to provide a non-custodial seamless experience to bitcoiners, hyperliquid has probably less than ~0.1% or less of the bitcoin supply being bridged over and used on their protocol, most of their volume is in stablecoins. What I'm trying to do is match performance and UX but all you need is a bitcoin wallet where you don't need to use a bridge or give up custody, I think their may be demand for that. But the point is I am trying to target a specific cohort. Hyperliquid would never be able to do anything like this because they are an EVM based chain.

But you do realise running all that infrastructure is quite costly, right?
Perp dexes shut down not because they don't make money, they shut down because they don't make enough after all costs.

Just running it for the sake of culture won't last for long. You'll need to attract big volumes or have unreasonably high fees.

hyperliquid has a team of 11 people each profiting 70 million a year, the protocol makes more than a million a day, I know their the outlier but if operational costs were even 100k a day you would only need to make 150k a day to profit, the entire point of building this is to address a niche that is untapped potentially attracting millions to billions of dollars of volume per day from bitcoiners.

[sergiorus]

For perp dex what really matters is the speed and stability under stress (no overloads, no tx rejections).

Hyperliquid won because achieved it with its own EVM L1 chain (and because it still allows no-KYC trading, of course) with very fast finality, ability to handle and finalise many TPS.

Traders won't really care about flawed decentralisation as long as UX is flawless.

100% I'm not trying to compete with hyperliquid, you pretty much can't atp, the point of this project is to provide a non-custodial seamless experience to bitcoiners, hyperliquid has probably less than ~0.1% or less of the bitcoin supply being bridged over and used on their protocol, most of their volume is in stablecoins. What I'm trying to do is match performance and UX but all you need is a bitcoin wallet where you don't need to use a bridge or give up custody, I think their may be demand for that. But the point is I am trying to target a specific cohort. Hyperliquid would never be able to do anything like this because they are an EVM based chain.

But you do realise running all that infrastructure is quite costly, right?
Perp dexes shut down not because they don't make money, they shut down because they don't make enough after all costs.

Just running it for the sake of culture won't last for long. You'll need to attract big volumes or have unreasonably high fees.

hyperliquid has a team of 11 people each profiting 70 million a year, the protocol makes more than a million a day, I know their the outlier but if operational costs were even 100k a day you would only need to make 150k a day to profit, the entire point of building this is to address a niche that is untapped potentially attracting millions to billions of dollars of volume per day from bitcoiners.

1. They aren't profiting off of that directly, it all goes into buying and burning the HYPE token.

2. Lighter (the main competitor) doesn't make $150k a day (they channel the revenue into buybacks and burns as well).

3. A more realistic case: Bluefin, once (maybe still) the biggest perp DEX on Sui, currently making around $2000 per day.

[yonzay]

For perp dex what really matters is the speed and stability under stress (no overloads, no tx rejections).

Hyperliquid won because achieved it with its own EVM L1 chain (and because it still allows no-KYC trading, of course) with very fast finality, ability to handle and finalise many TPS.

Traders won't really care about flawed decentralisation as long as UX is flawless.

100% I'm not trying to compete with hyperliquid, you pretty much can't atp, the point of this project is to provide a non-custodial seamless experience to bitcoiners, hyperliquid has probably less than ~0.1% or less of the bitcoin supply being bridged over and used on their protocol, most of their volume is in stablecoins. What I'm trying to do is match performance and UX but all you need is a bitcoin wallet where you don't need to use a bridge or give up custody, I think their may be demand for that. But the point is I am trying to target a specific cohort. Hyperliquid would never be able to do anything like this because they are an EVM based chain.

But you do realise running all that infrastructure is quite costly, right?
Perp dexes shut down not because they don't make money, they shut down because they don't make enough after all costs.

Just running it for the sake of culture won't last for long. You'll need to attract big volumes or have unreasonably high fees.

hyperliquid has a team of 11 people each profiting 70 million a year, the protocol makes more than a million a day, I know their the outlier but if operational costs were even 100k a day you would only need to make 150k a day to profit, the entire point of building this is to address a niche that is untapped potentially attracting millions to billions of dollars of volume per day from bitcoiners.

1. They aren't profiting off of that directly, it all goes into buying and burning the HYPE token.

2. Lighter (the main competitor) doesn't make $150k a day (they channel the revenue into buybacks and burns as well).

3. A more realistic case: Bluefin, once (maybe still) the biggest perp DEX on Sui, currently making around $2000 per day.

1. Yes they are https://www.linkedin.com/posts/matthewsniderj_11-people-just-generated-78-million-each-share-7454510749961609216-x0A8/

2. Aster is their main competitor not Lighter

3. Bluefin makes much more than that (30-100k) per day https://defillama.com/protocol/bluefin I have friends I know personally that make 5k per day off their niche dapps in the Solana ecosystem also bluefin doesn't seam to have any moat other than being another perp dex, I would be explictly addressing a niche no other platform currently does.

[sergiorus]

For perp dex what really matters is the speed and stability under stress (no overloads, no tx rejections).

Hyperliquid won because achieved it with its own EVM L1 chain (and because it still allows no-KYC trading, of course) with very fast finality, ability to handle and finalise many TPS.

Traders won't really care about flawed decentralisation as long as UX is flawless.

100% I'm not trying to compete with hyperliquid, you pretty much can't atp, the point of this project is to provide a non-custodial seamless experience to bitcoiners, hyperliquid has probably less than ~0.1% or less of the bitcoin supply being bridged over and used on their protocol, most of their volume is in stablecoins. What I'm trying to do is match performance and UX but all you need is a bitcoin wallet where you don't need to use a bridge or give up custody, I think their may be demand for that. But the point is I am trying to target a specific cohort. Hyperliquid would never be able to do anything like this because they are an EVM based chain.

But you do realise running all that infrastructure is quite costly, right?
Perp dexes shut down not because they don't make money, they shut down because they don't make enough after all costs.

Just running it for the sake of culture won't last for long. You'll need to attract big volumes or have unreasonably high fees.

hyperliquid has a team of 11 people each profiting 70 million a year, the protocol makes more than a million a day, I know their the outlier but if operational costs were even 100k a day you would only need to make 150k a day to profit, the entire point of building this is to address a niche that is untapped potentially attracting millions to billions of dollars of volume per day from bitcoiners.

1. They aren't profiting off of that directly, it all goes into buying and burning the HYPE token.

2. Lighter (the main competitor) doesn't make $150k a day (they channel the revenue into buybacks and burns as well).

3. A more realistic case: Bluefin, once (maybe still) the biggest perp DEX on Sui, currently making around $2000 per day.

1. Yes they are https://www.linkedin.com/posts/matthewsniderj_11-people-just-generated-78-million-each-share-7454510749961609216-x0A8/

2. Aster is their main competitor not Lighter

3. Bluefin makes much more than that (30-100k) per day https://defillama.com/protocol/bluefin I have friends I know personally that make 5k per day off their niche dapps in the Solana ecosystem also bluefin doesn't seam to have any moat other than being another perp dex, I would be explictly addressing a niche no other platform currently does.

1. Again, the revenue goes straight into buying and burning the HYPE token. This supports the price and the team members get to sell it at a higher price though.

2.  Doesn't really matter, they are in the same league. Aster is a CZ's toy, many traders don't trust it.

3. The link you posted states it made $3600 in the last 24 hours. Most of it came from the spot DEX, not the perp dex.

[yonzay]

For perp dex what really matters is the speed and stability under stress (no overloads, no tx rejections).

Hyperliquid won because achieved it with its own EVM L1 chain (and because it still allows no-KYC trading, of course) with very fast finality, ability to handle and finalise many TPS.

Traders won't really care about flawed decentralisation as long as UX is flawless.

100% I'm not trying to compete with hyperliquid, you pretty much can't atp, the point of this project is to provide a non-custodial seamless experience to bitcoiners, hyperliquid has probably less than ~0.1% or less of the bitcoin supply being bridged over and used on their protocol, most of their volume is in stablecoins. What I'm trying to do is match performance and UX but all you need is a bitcoin wallet where you don't need to use a bridge or give up custody, I think their may be demand for that. But the point is I am trying to target a specific cohort. Hyperliquid would never be able to do anything like this because they are an EVM based chain.

But you do realise running all that infrastructure is quite costly, right?
Perp dexes shut down not because they don't make money, they shut down because they don't make enough after all costs.

Just running it for the sake of culture won't last for long. You'll need to attract big volumes or have unreasonably high fees.

hyperliquid has a team of 11 people each profiting 70 million a year, the protocol makes more than a million a day, I know their the outlier but if operational costs were even 100k a day you would only need to make 150k a day to profit, the entire point of building this is to address a niche that is untapped potentially attracting millions to billions of dollars of volume per day from bitcoiners.

1. They aren't profiting off of that directly, it all goes into buying and burning the HYPE token.

2. Lighter (the main competitor) doesn't make $150k a day (they channel the revenue into buybacks and burns as well).

3. A more realistic case: Bluefin, once (maybe still) the biggest perp DEX on Sui, currently making around $2000 per day.

1. Yes they are https://www.linkedin.com/posts/matthewsniderj_11-people-just-generated-78-million-each-share-7454510749961609216-x0A8/

2. Aster is their main competitor not Lighter

3. Bluefin makes much more than that (30-100k) per day https://defillama.com/protocol/bluefin I have friends I know personally that make 5k per day off their niche dapps in the Solana ecosystem also bluefin doesn't seam to have any moat other than being another perp dex, I would be explictly addressing a niche no other platform currently does.

1. Again, the revenue goes straight into buying and burning the HYPE token. This supports the price and the team members get to sell it at a higher price though.

2.  Doesn't really matter, they are in the same league. Aster is a CZ's toy, many traders don't trust it.

3. The link you posted states it made $3600 in the last 24 hours. Most of it came from the spot DEX, not the perp dex.

1. yeah some of the protocol revenue does, the employee revenue is the employee's revenues though doesn't change the fact they still made 78 million for themselves each

2. Aster is number 40 on CMC, lighter is much lower, Aster also has higher rev, thats why I was pointing that out

3. Yes but reveune was 20-40k throughout 2025, as I said this is just a generic perp dex that was built on SUI which has been having outages recently. not personally a chain I'm fond of and a dapp like this is pulling or has pulled these numbers. Clarity act is about to pass which could make perps legal in the US where a good amount of bitcoin holders reside. I just suspect that a product like this can bootstrap its own lucrative niche market if executed correctly of course.