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Author Topic: Should wallets warn users about low-quality entropy during SEED generation?  (Read 320 times)
hd49728
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August 09, 2026, 03:30:34 AM
 #21

Right now, most wallets software and hardware generate your SEED phrase and hand it to you with zero indication of whether the underlying randomness was actually good. No warning, no way to know.

Either way, something as simple as: "Entropy below recommended minimum, proceed anyway? Yes/No" would at least surface the problem instead of silently handing someone SEED phrase that could potentially be compromised.
It can not happen by some following main reasons.

First of all, it is from the wallet developer team. If they are incapable technically, they don't know that their wallet products/ models have not enough and weak entropy of wallet seeds.

Second, they can know about that by themselves in wallet development process or by community reports such as the Coldcard team, but they decided to ignore that security weakness.

Do you think such wallet developers team will add warnings in their own wallet softwares/ products/ models?

If you want to have such insightful technical warnings, you can make your proposal to this site team https://walletscrutiny.com/. Ask them to add security check on wallets related to seed entropy and add it to their wallet reviews.

nc50lc
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August 09, 2026, 06:15:02 AM
 #22

If you want to have such insightful technical warnings, you can make your proposal to this site team https://walletscrutiny.com/. Ask them to add security check on wallets related to seed entropy and add it to their wallet reviews.
I doubt that it'll be 100% reliable.
For example, the recent Coldcard MK4 warnings in their websites are only added after the hack while the issue was present way before their initial code audit.

Before, it's listed as one of the "good wallets" without any listed issue, archived:

ABCbits
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August 09, 2026, 07:13:34 AM
 #23

FWIW, the implementation for that standard already exist on https://github.com/usnistgov/SP800-90B_EntropyAssessment. NIST code and PDF doesn't mention how long the test took. But i found a research that benchmark the test time.

   NIST program written in Python    NIST program written in C++
IID test    17 h    1 h 10 min
[IID track] Estimation entropy    −    −
[Non-IID track] Estimation entropy    15 min    20 s
Restart tests    2 s    2 min
Total execution time    17 h 16 min    1 h 13 min

Over 1 hour for full test isn't practical, i expect most people don't want to wait that long.


i burn in new drives, memory, basically any new computer gear and absolutely hammer them for literally days before i entrust them with even my cat pictures.

for bitcoin i can see testing for a lot longer if i could figure out how, and im just a end user.

From what i understand so far, such test can't be done by end or average user. The test itself must use the generated and processed entropy/random number directly from the wallet as the input, which means either,
1. the wallet itself must implement this test.
2. you modify the wallet source code to save the generated and processed entropy/random number to a file, before feeding it as input to the test software.

Following good guide that generate entropy or random number from a dice is more practical option.

Pmalek
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August 09, 2026, 07:32:42 AM
 #24

If the developers and project owners have a reliable and secure way to check that the keys are not secure enough and that the numbers aren't random enough, they should display a warning. But it's a question of whether or not it's an easy thing for them to verify.

The only reason why I think most people are challenging or blaming cold card is simply because there was reports that their system source (TRNG) wasn’t that random as it was broke but they didn’t take that warning or acted upon it and it was what lead to this, which is why I also call for them to be blamed
If NVK didn't decide to switch to a non open-source license and mess around, the scandal wouldn't have happened. He has been arrogant for years. He was the first to gloat whenever something bad happened to other hardware wallet manufacturers and quickly talk about the strengths of his own product. People didn't like him.

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Cricktor
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August 09, 2026, 08:33:15 PM
 #25

Right now, most wallets software and hardware generate your SEED phrase and hand it to you with zero indication of whether the underlying randomness was actually good. No warning, no way to know.

In my view, it would be very welcome if wallets performed the relevant self checking  on the quality of the entropy used to generate  user's wallet, and warned  user if the entropy falls below, say, 128 bits. ...
This should actually not be necessary. If a software wallet generates entropy, it has to use at least something like a CSPRNG or a HWRNG, if available, usually via some library or OS routines. I would expect that if you call such a RNG, it should return some error codes if there are any issues, like low-entropy pool or whatever.

Same applies to a hardware wallet which commonly has at least one TRNG (for me synonym to a HWRNGhardware random number generator). I'm pretty sure that TRNGs are implemented in a way that they can indicate to the caller if something is wrong with their entropy (called too often, entropy depletion, circuit instability and whatnot else). Good and reliable TRNGs are known technology with various well working circuit designs that I would call "understood". I'm no expert in this field but at some past I was quite interested in this topic and read a lot about current RNG technology.

The problem that has been addressed partly already is: how do you quantify "good entropy"? From my knowledge about RNGs, I'd say, you can't from a single or only few samples. All randomness tests I've see and tried with some special test software commonly require a lot of samples to churn them through a plethora of randomness tests. That's hardly feasible for what you have in mind.

A hardware wallet would need to do this all internally because the entropy should never leave the device, only been converted once to mnemonic recovery words for the human to back it up. Frankly, this would bloat the firmware with stuff that in my opinion shouldn't be necessary.

A proper system design has to use a TRNG (or CSPRNG) that behaves non-erratic and does its job. Period! It should signal issues and if those are signaled the entropy generation for a crypto wallet has to abort and NEVER divert to a flawed low-entropy shit-RNG under any circumstances. N.E.V.E.R!

It is of utmost stupidity and arrogance that Coinkite chose to leave such a code path in their firmware AND that apparently they never debugged it properly AND/OR left it in for whatever malicious purpose. (Don't really want to follow the evil conspiracy path here.)
I don't even understand why they had a terribly weak PRNG as accessible code path in their firmware anyway. No deal for debug builds or for whatever it was there, but for the production firmware for customers? C'mon, no freaking way should this be there.


If you can't or don't want to trust such RNGs, generate the entropy for your wallet(s) yourself, but do it the right way, knowing and understanding what you're doing, because it's easy to screw up and you can't really know or detect bad entropy easily.

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