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Author Topic: How secure is the seed? Some noobish questions...  (Read 103 times)
anon99999 (OP)
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September 12, 2026, 05:41:03 PM
 #1

In Read the Docs it says "The seed phrase created by Electrum has 132 bits of entropy. This means that it provides the same level of security as a Bitcoin private key (of length 256 bits). Indeed, an elliptic curve key of length n provides n/2 bits of security."

Q1: This is not much information about how the seed is derived. Is examining the source code the only way to understand more about this? I haven't done that yet.

Q2: In light of the latest AI models, and the ones sure to follow, how long will this be enough to keep coins secure? I think I read recently that future models will be able to break ECDSA. Interested to hear any thoughts on this.

Q3: When I create a new wallet, Electrum instantly produces a 12 word seed. Since the Coldcard exploit I've read that entropy should be added with a passphrase, dice rollls, mouse movements etc, yet with Electrum there is no option for any of this. Why would these other wallets need all that if Electrum doesn't, and how can we verify the 12 word seeds generated by Electrum are sufficient?

Thanks in advance!
zabzob
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September 12, 2026, 06:05:33 PM
 #2

Since your question is specifically about Electrum seeds, it would make sense to post this thread in the Electrum subforum of the wallet software forum
anon99999 (OP)
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September 12, 2026, 06:08:34 PM
 #3

Sorry wasn't aware. Will do.
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September 12, 2026, 07:06:33 PM
 #4

Q3: When I create a new wallet, Electrum instantly produces a 12 word seed. Since the Coldcard exploit I've read that entropy should be added with a passphrase, dice rollls, mouse movements etc, yet with Electrum there is no option for any of this. Why would these other wallets need all that if Electrum doesn't, and how can we verify the 12 word seeds generated by Electrum are sufficient?


Well, Electrum is not perfect to give you a 100% secured wallet; it still depends on your environment. The seed generation from Electrum is unique and not compatible to any other wallet when importing.

I'm using Electrum for me; their wallet seed generation is sufficient to me since I haven't experienced any issue yet from my wallet. I generated my seed in an offline device; it was never connected to the internet. I only use a separate device only for signing an offline transaction I use the camera or SD card to transfer the raw unsigned transaction to the offline device to sign the transaction and scan it via QR code to broadcast the transaction into the online device.

I know it does not have some feature where the mouse movements are included to generate a unique seed, but the quality of the Electrum seed depends on your device environment.
The only reason why most users are being hacked and lose their BTC is due to malware like installing a fake Electrum and also being attacked online if you can make a cold storage wallet with Electrum you are far from any online attacks.

About adding a passphrase, this feature actually exists in Electrum as extended custom words. It makes your seed phrase more secure if you enable it during wallet creation.

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Yamane_Keto
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September 12, 2026, 07:25:35 PM
 #5

1. It is the make_seed function in mnemonic.py that generates 132 bits of entropy by default.

https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/blob/master/electrum/mnemonic.py

2. The real danger is not the seed itself, but in the Bitcoin public keys generated by your wallet; if you succeed in keeping them hidden and avoid address reuse, you will theoretically be safe.

3. Electrum wallet supports adding a passphrase; the seed is secure without one, the passphrase is mentioned in the context of Coldcard because it relates to the firmware update.

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Cricktor
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September 12, 2026, 07:37:45 PM
Last edit: September 12, 2026, 08:05:52 PM by Cricktor
 #6

Q1: This is not much information about how the seed is derived. Is examining the source code the only way to understand more about this? I haven't done that yet.
You either trust that multiple eyes have reviewed and audited the code or you look and verify yourself. Electrum is well designed and a long time on the market. Well, that doesn't prove anything if everybody kept their eyes shut.


Q2: ... I think I read recently that future models will be able to break ECDSA.
This is quite some bullshit, don't believe every nonsense you read anywhere.


Q3: When I create a new wallet, Electrum instantly produces a 12 word seed. Since the Coldcard exploit I've read that entropy should be added with a passphrase, dice rollls, mouse movements etc, yet with Electrum there is no option for any of this. Why would these other wallets need all that if Electrum doesn't, and how can we verify the 12 word seeds generated by Electrum are sufficient?
You can tell Electrum via the console tab to produce 24 recovery words, if that makes you feel safer.

You're wrong when you say "there is no option for any of this". When you create a standard Electrum wallet new, on the screen where the Electrum recovery words are shown, there's an "Options" button, click on it, ans "Seed Options" opens where you can tick the box "Extend this seed with custom words". Here you can specify the additional mnemonic passphrase. It can be anything, not necessarily only some custom words. Beware! The smallest error in the additional mnemonic passphrase and you don't get your wallet you expect but just another empty wallet.

If you extend the seed words (the mnemonic recovery words, by standard 12, but you can instruct Electrum to generate more; I will have to look up the command for it) with an additional mnemonic passphrase, it's very important to properly document and backup both, but not together!

Code:
make_seed(264)
Enter this in the Console tab to generate 24 recovery words for an Electrum Segwit wallet (standard). If you don't see the Console tab (not enabled by default), enable it from the "View" menu.

hosemary
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September 12, 2026, 07:43:33 PM
Last edit: Today at 01:28:02 AM by hosemary
 #7

Q1: This is not much information about how the seed is derived. Is examining the source code the only way to understand more about this? I haven't done that yet.
Electrum first generates a random entropy through Python's os.urandom function which uses the operating system random number generator, and then converts it into a seed phrase using a wordlist. By default, Electrum uses BIP39 wordlist.
After that, Electrum hashes the seed phrase through HMAC-SHA512 function with using "Seed version" as key, and accepts the seed phrase only if the resulting hash starts with the correct version number. The version number is 0x01 for legacy wallets, 0x100 for segwit wallets, and 0x101 for 2FA wallets.
If the resulting hash doesn't start with the correct version number, it increments the entropy, generates a new seed phrase, and repeats the process until it finds a valid seed phrase.


Q2: In light of the latest AI models, and the ones sure to follow, how long will this be enough to keep coins secure? I think I read recently that future models will be able to break ECDSA. Interested to hear any thoughts on this.
I have never heard such a thing.
Maybe, you are confusing it with quantum computer threats.


Q3: When I create a new wallet, Electrum instantly produces a 12 word seed. Since the Coldcard exploit I've read that entropy should be added with a passphrase, dice rollls, mouse movements etc, yet with Electrum there is no option for any of this. Why would these other wallets need all that if Electrum doesn't, and how can we verify the 12 word seeds generated by Electrum are sufficient?
Electrum allows you to add a passphrase to your seed phrase.

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Stalker22
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September 12, 2026, 07:46:41 PM
Merited by Cricktor (1)
 #8

Q1: This is not much information about how the seed is derived. Is examining the source code the only way to understand more about this? I haven't done that yet.

Electrum gets its random entropy from your operating system's cryptographically secure pseudorandom number generator (CSPRNG) via Python underlying system calls (such as os.urandom or secrets.token_bytes).  Modern operating system CSPRNGs are highly secure because they use true physical entropy (chaotic noise) from your computer hardware.  The problem with the Coldcard was a critical firmware bug that caused certain devices to generate weak, predictable seed phrases.  Instead of calling the secure hardware TRNG, the device silently defaulted to a weak, predictable software-based PRNG fallback.

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anon99999 (OP)
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September 12, 2026, 09:56:34 PM
 #9

Thanks a lot everyone, for taking the time to answer my questions.

I noticed the option to extend the seed with custom words, and wondered if that was a way to add entropy.

I didn't know there was a way to generate a 24 word seed.

Really appreciate the translation of the code behind the mnemonic!

Perhaps it was the idea that an AI model (say some of years from now) could brute force wallets much faster than 100,000 years or whatever it has been previously calculated...
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Today at 04:17:47 AM
Merited by Cricktor (1)
 #10

Q2: In light of the latest AI models, and the ones sure to follow, how long will this be enough to keep coins secure? I think I read recently that future models will be able to break ECDSA. Interested to hear any thoughts on this.
Disregarding the "AI breaking ECDSA FUD" that you've read, Electrum should now be strong against AI-assisted "hacking".
One reason is; the latest 2 release versions were extensively audited by famous people/group that utilizes AI (while not entirely relying on it).
Not just one, but a few of them, refer to Electrum's release notes for the list.

So, if even there'll be an obvious but missed vulnerability in the entropy generation like Coldcard firmware had or even a sneaky one,
It should've been caught months ago.

But since a bug is something that's unintended, we'll never know for certain.
But assuming AI is already used to audit the code, there's only a slim chance that a basement dweller hacker can find something that they've missed with another AI.

Perhaps it was the idea that an AI model (say some of years from now) could brute force wallets much faster than 100,000 years or whatever it has been previously calculated...
AI can't speed up bruteforce,
But it can potentially speed up the development of hardware and software that can be used to bruteforce.
But then, it depends if it can invent something so efficient that doesn't require to harness the sun's entire energy to power it.

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