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Author Topic: [OPPORTUNITY] Invest in a working mining operation  (Read 3242 times)
gusti
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April 09, 2011, 12:18:58 AM
 #1

To expand an already working mining operation, I'm looking for investors.
It can be a loan of USD to be paid in BTC, also open to any association proposal.

Loan example : for every USD 100.- you invest, you get 12 monthly fixed payments of 15.11.- BTC.
That is a direct interest of 3% mo. , plus you can benefit from any BTC revaluation in the meantime.


UPDATED :

For every USD 1000.- you invest, you will be paid one of these 3 options of your choice :

1) 12 x USD 83.33.- and 12 x 40 BTC.
2) 12 x 150 BTC
3) 12 x USD 114.-

Investing is accepted by means of :

- Wire transfer
- WU
- BTC

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
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MoonShadow
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April 09, 2011, 12:47:44 AM
 #2

I like the idea, but not the terms.  Even at a 3% ROI, Bitcoin is still inflating at about 40% APR.  There is still room for great losses.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
demonofelru
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April 09, 2011, 12:48:01 AM
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How would you receive the money I might be interested.

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grue
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April 09, 2011, 12:51:02 AM
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payment via paypal?

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

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gusti
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April 09, 2011, 12:52:34 AM
 #5

I like the idea, but not the terms.  Even at a 3% ROI, Bitcoin is still inflating at about 40% APR.  There is still room for great losses.

I'm not sure if I understand your concerns.  Wink
I will expand mining with loan. I will repay with BTC.

So, you will benefit if BTC revalue.
Would you prefer a fixed USD repayment, a mix ?

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
gusti
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April 09, 2011, 12:53:16 AM
 #6

How would you receive the money I might be interested.

Wire is the best option, can accept WU too.

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
gusti
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April 09, 2011, 12:54:40 AM
 #7

payment via paypal?

Sorry, Paypal not an option, too risky.
I can accept wire or Western Union.

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demonofelru
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April 09, 2011, 12:57:07 AM
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nvm then wire costs $25 I believe and WU not sure how much but should be at least $8.  I don't do paypal but how in the world is that risky? You don't pay till a month a withdraw to bank account takes like a week if that, any problems just don't pay.

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gusti
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April 09, 2011, 01:02:58 AM
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nvm then wire costs $25 I believe and WU not sure how much but should be at least $8.  I don't do paypal but how in the world is that risky? You don't pay till a month a withdraw to bank account takes like a week if that, any problems just don't pay.

Problem with Paypal, additional with fraud accounts, is that they may freeze your account for no reason.
Also, bank withdrawal not a good option here (Argentina).

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
demonofelru
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April 09, 2011, 01:04:12 AM
 #10

nvm then wire costs $25 I believe and WU not sure how much but should be at least $8.  I don't do paypal but how in the world is that risky? You don't pay till a month a withdraw to bank account takes like a week if that, any problems just don't pay.

Problem with Paypal, additional with fraud accounts, is that they may freeze your account for no reason.
Also, bank withdrawal not a good option here (Argentina).

Oh ok yet another reason I don't use paypal.

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MoonShadow
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April 09, 2011, 05:07:26 AM
 #11

I like the idea, but not the terms.  Even at a 3% ROI, Bitcoin is still inflating at about 40% APR.  There is still room for great losses.

I'm not sure if I understand your concerns.  Wink
I will expand mining with loan. I will repay with BTC.

So, you will benefit if BTC revalue.
Would you prefer a fixed USD repayment, a mix ?

What you are proposing is essentially a one year business bond.  The problem is that it's unsecured and includes currency risks.  3% isn't enough interest.  However, I also understand the concern for yourself, because if the difficulty shoots to the moon, you might not be able to pay back the installments.  But I think that I have a solution.

Start by bumping up the APR to something more in line with a high risk bond, say 12%; but include an escape clause.  For example, an agreement to the monthly payment, but if the difficulty is set to a number higher than a certain limit, all future payments are waived.  This protects you from a spike in the difficulty, while also permitting the investor (myself) assurances of a reasonable profit margin.  It works because there is a strong corollary between the difficulty and the market price trendline.  So if the limit is breached in six months, I only receive half of the bitcoins but it is a fair assumption that the trade value of that half of bitcoins had significantly increased during those six months.  At this time, I'd be willing to set the high difficulty limit to 250K, roughly triple the difficulty at this point.  Run your math, if you are interested, to judge your risks.  On risk to me is that it's possible for the bitcoin price to decouple from the difficulty, but I would say that the odds of that occurring within any one year period are remote. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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April 09, 2011, 05:27:21 AM
 #12

You might want to wait about a week and a 1/2 when BitcoinGlobal (my company, with several prominent co-investors and board members) launches the Global Bitcoin Stock Exchange, it's not just for shares but will allow you to monetize(for bitcoin) any contract you can imagine, from bonds, loans, to futures contracts.

We're going to start open testing in the next few days, pm me if you want in.

PGP key id at pgp.mit.edu 0xA68F4B7C

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gusti
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April 09, 2011, 01:34:18 PM
 #13

I like the idea, but not the terms.  Even at a 3% ROI, Bitcoin is still inflating at about 40% APR.  There is still room for great losses.

I'm not sure if I understand your concerns.  Wink
I will expand mining with loan. I will repay with BTC.

So, you will benefit if BTC revalue.
Would you prefer a fixed USD repayment, a mix ?

What you are proposing is essentially a one year business bond.  The problem is that it's unsecured and includes currency risks.  3% isn't enough interest.  However, I also understand the concern for yourself, because if the difficulty shoots to the moon, you might not be able to pay back the installments.  But I think that I have a solution.

Start by bumping up the APR to something more in line with a high risk bond, say 12%; but include an escape clause.  For example, an agreement to the monthly payment, but if the difficulty is set to a number higher than a certain limit, all future payments are waived.  This protects you from a spike in the difficulty, while also permitting the investor (myself) assurances of a reasonable profit margin.  It works because there is a strong corollary between the difficulty and the market price trendline.  So if the limit is breached in six months, I only receive half of the bitcoins but it is a fair assumption that the trade value of that half of bitcoins had significantly increased during those six months.  At this time, I'd be willing to set the high difficulty limit to 250K, roughly triple the difficulty at this point.  Run your math, if you are interested, to judge your risks.  On risk to me is that it's possible for the bitcoin price to decouple from the difficulty, but I would say that the odds of that occurring within any one year period are remote. 

I understand now, and your logic is flawless. If difficulty goes too high, it will be hard to repay that 3% mo. in BTC.
Anyway, at the same time as minimizing risks, I wish the investor may benefit also from a BTC value rally.

To make things simpler, I'm thinking on offering a mixed repayment type : capital will be repaid in USD and interest in BTC.
e.g. : for every USD 1000.- you invest, you will be paid 12 x USD 83.33.- and 12 x 40 BTC.

What do you think ?

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
gusti
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April 09, 2011, 01:35:11 PM
 #14

You might want to wait about a week and a 1/2 when BitcoinGlobal (my company, with several prominent co-investors and board members) launches the Global Bitcoin Stock Exchange, it's not just for shares but will allow you to monetize(for bitcoin) any contract you can imagine, from bonds, loans, to futures contracts.

We're going to start open testing in the next few days, pm me if you want in.

Thanks nefario, I will be watching it very closely.

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
MoonShadow
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April 09, 2011, 11:53:17 PM
 #15


To make things simpler, I'm thinking on offering a mixed repayment type : capital will be repaid in USD and interest in BTC.
e.g. : for every USD 1000.- you invest, you will be paid 12 x USD 83.33.- and 12 x 40 BTC.

What do you think ?


I think that is a workable solution.  Such an agreement pretty much removes investor currency trade risks.  Would the USD be in MtGox $, PayPal $, or some other method?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
gusti
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April 10, 2011, 12:38:55 AM
 #16


To make things simpler, I'm thinking on offering a mixed repayment type : capital will be repaid in USD and interest in BTC.
e.g. : for every USD 1000.- you invest, you will be paid 12 x USD 83.33.- and 12 x 40 BTC.

What do you think ?


I think that is a workable solution.  Such an agreement pretty much removes investor currency trade risks.  Would the USD be in MtGox $, PayPal $, or some other method?

USD payments can be with any method, at investor choice, no problem with that.

Initial target capital is USD 20k, or 40 positions of USD 500 ea.
That will double the capacity of actual operation (currently 12 Ghps).







 

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
MoonShadow
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April 10, 2011, 01:19:17 AM
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To make things simpler, I'm thinking on offering a mixed repayment type : capital will be repaid in USD and interest in BTC.
e.g. : for every USD 1000.- you invest, you will be paid 12 x USD 83.33.- and 12 x 40 BTC.

What do you think ?


I think that is a workable solution.  Such an agreement pretty much removes investor currency trade risks.  Would the USD be in MtGox $, PayPal $, or some other method?

USD payments can be with any method, at investor choice, no problem with that.
 

If you have 200 different investors, you are going to want to standardize the payment methods.  Otherwise you are going to be spending too much actual labor time sending the payments each month.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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April 10, 2011, 01:28:25 AM
 #18


What you are proposing is essentially a one year business bond.  The problem is that it's unsecured and includes currency risks.  3% isn't enough interest. 

<snip>

he said 3% per month, not per year. that comes out to about 42.5% per year

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gusti
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April 10, 2011, 01:44:10 AM
 #19

creighto
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If you have 200 different investors, you are going to want to standardize the payment methods.  Otherwise you are going to be spending too much actual labor time sending the payments each month.

That's right.
Anyway, with a mininum of USD 500.- and a maximum of 20k per investor, I expect to keep number of investors low. 
With some luck, no more than 10 investors.


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gusti
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April 10, 2011, 01:45:48 AM
 #20


What you are proposing is essentially a one year business bond.  The problem is that it's unsecured and includes currency risks.  3% isn't enough interest. 

<snip>

he said 3% per month, not per year. that comes out to about 42.5% per year

Yes, interest rate is 3% direct, monthly.
Plus any benefit for a BTC revaluation.

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
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