Minion ASIC - free samples and up to US$20000 discount

[Bicknellski]

Dude,
It was just a technical challenge for you
Honesty and business is other story
So go on with your project and remember no matter what you do you have to know what you are doing to be able to design something working at the end
Meetings will not help you much with that
Hard work is needed that is all

Dude it is a tech challenge just to get a board made. We don't need a pissing in the wind contest on top of it. Like I said Marto better put more time in customer service that is where he really lacks skills and that could be a problem given the people who are producing boards and selling them to the community his real competition. He can build boards and get them mass produced but he sure as hell doesn't know how to respond to complaints.

Let me put it in perspective. The WPC has taken $0 from the community. If we never bring a design to market then we cost the community $0. When we have something from the months of work that has been put in by a small number of engineers then we can talk about the design, the work that went in, the delays etc. But personally, and I think I speak for the WPC in this regard, we don't really care what you think hard work is and what it takes to get our designs done. Having weekly meetings to update the membership doesn't detract from the work that goes on.

Again we wish Marto the best and we hope he gets out another design in a few days as he normally does.

[1713576255]

1713576255

[marto74]

The winner will be the community since the discounts require GPL designs going out that is the focus right? Just a note Marto you want to worry more about making your current customers happier as opposed to worrying about some sort of phony staged competition or race with us. We are not your competition.

Bick this here is a joke in return of you almost caling us scam in Zefir's coincraft tread.
Our problems with customers are in the past.
And our small team of 3 people for design hw sw and production did already 7 succesful mining board projects.
I'm  just inviting you EE team in a small competition for fun.
You chose to change the subject.... Why ?
Are you in or not

[Bicknellski]

The winner will be the community since the discounts require GPL designs going out that is the focus right? Just a note Marto you want to worry more about making your current customers happier as opposed to worrying about some sort of phony staged competition or race with us. We are not your competition.

Bick this here is a joke in return of you almost caling us scam in Zefir's coincraft tread.
Our problems with customers are in the past.
And our small team of 3 people for design hw sw and production did already 7 succesful mining board projects.
I'm  just inviting you EE team in a small competition for fun.
You chose to change the subject.... Why ?
Are you in or not

No comment.

You deal with your customers how you like but don't expect people to ignore it.

You are on my ignore list so I don't have to watch it anymore as it is quite painful to see good design get lost in bad service.

Feel free to go back on topic if you like.

[marto74]

The winner will be the community since the discounts require GPL designs going out that is the focus right? Just a note Marto you want to worry more about making your current customers happier as opposed to worrying about some sort of phony staged competition or race with us. We are not your competition.

Bick this here is a joke in return of you almost caling us scam in Zefir's coincraft tread.
Our problems with customers are in the past.
And our small team of 3 people for design hw sw and production did already 7 succesful mining board projects.
I'm  just inviting you EE team in a small competition for fun.
You chose to change the subject.... Why ?
Are you in or not

No comment.

You deal with your customers how you like but don't expect people to ignore it.

You are on my ignore list so I don't have to watch it anymore as it is quite painful to see good design get lost in bad service.

Feel free to go back on topic if you like.

BAD SERVICE ......
And you take it out of what ?? a few members of my GB  asking for fee return (one of them member of your famous team), they all got a refund for the chips cost !!!
A few customers that want refund for assembly service that is not refundable by our terms and conditions.
All other issues we had are solved.
What did you did in terms of design and production in the last 9 months ?
And we took what from community??
All customers got their products or refund
RMA units are handled.
And all you did are meetings , right ?
And I see you call us scam again, and compare us to BFL
You can write this to me after you design something first, then you can try put it in production and then handle the support for it.
WE have our failures , but we are here working.
In the same time you make endless web meetings...
What are your results
again ARE you IN or NOT?

Anyway wish you and your team  luck

[loshia]

I really wish this was less fighting between each other and more post about making new improved awesome miners.  
Can't we all get along!

miners will be available in no time dude
The only two conditions are to be met
1. Marto to receive chips ASAP depends from black arrow only
2. Black arrow to keep his word and give good price for the chips to all folks who produce boards

Then we miners would be able to get minions in our hands and enjoy roi
Eventually....
All depends on black arrow only
Ps: there is no ASIC chip available at the moment which will ever roi it's price alone
I do sincerely hope that black arrow will change it

[cdog]

Good thing Black Arrow hasnt lost focus on its original project which is months behind schedule. Glad to see they are really focused on completing their first batch! Great job!!!

[Bicknellski]

One issue our lead EE has already seen might be the need for a 6 layer board.

Paraphrasing our EE at the last meeting:

'The inner pins on the Minion can't be brought out directly to be connected. You will need to use at least 4 layers of interconnect and drill microvias to carry the signals, typically put in the pad, which is a much higher standard of manufacturing that is required compared to the more straightforward QFN chips. It is a pretty risky venture and there are plenty of possible faults that can creep in here. Reworking these could be over $150 per chip and a monstrous undertaking as the chips themselves would require being bumped again or the chip has to be discarded.'

Anyone else seen that given the Minion's design?



Minion Datasheet 2014 APR 11

[TheRealSteve]

While I have no love for routing BGAs, I'm curious... Did your EE specify why they believe the 'inner' pins can't be brought out directly?  It looks like two power planes (row A through AH and the sides of AJ, AK) and signaling pins at row AK that can just be routed straight out one edge, and row AJ that can be routed in between the pads of AK.

[Bicknellski]

While I have no love for routing BGAs, I'm curious... Did your EE specify why they believe the 'inner' pins can't be brought out directly?  It looks like two power planes (row A through AH and the sides of AJ, AK) and signaling pins at row AK that can just be routed straight out one edge, and row AJ that can be routed in between the pads of AK.

Between the pads? Really is there enough space that be a pretty tiny trace wouldn't it?

[TheRealSteve]

While I have no love for routing BGAs, I'm curious... Did your EE specify why they believe the 'inner' pins can't be brought out directly?  It looks like two power planes (row A through AH and the sides of AJ, AK) and signaling pins at row AK that can just be routed straight out one edge, and row AJ that can be routed in between the pads of AK.

Between the pads? Really is there enough space that be a pretty tiny trace wouldn't it?

Yes, but doable - they're just signaling pins so don't have to carry much current. Talk to the fab you're using, they should be able to tell you the trace widths/clearance/etc. (preferably they'd toss you a design rules file for your package of choice).  But that's why I was wondering if your EE had some specific concerns (crosstalk or noise or whatever) that makes them think they'd rather via to further planes.

[Bicknellski]

I was speculating it is probably something else but he did go on about not being able to get the traces through then again this would be laid out automatically with the cad software and I believe that is something requiring some pretty extensive modules in a CAD software something our team doesn't have.

If I remember correctly he did have concerns in that regard with the A1 traces as the pads on that chip were tiny let me go back and listen again to the meeting recording to tease out more information. The BGA is a different kettle of fish entirely though from the A1 though.

Edit: "You can't run a wire between the balls they'd short" from the meeting recording.

[marto74]

For sure the first test board will be with minimum layers.
The if this fails you can go to the next level.
There will be plenty of time for this during FW is written and debugged.
My biggest concern is cooling.
Any thoughts on this ?

[TheRealSteve]

then again this would be laid out automatically with the cad software and I believe that is something requiring some pretty extensive modules in a CAD software something our team doesn't have.

While the power pins area can be autorouted (assuming that's what you meant), I'd just route the signal pins manually first.  But yes, try to get more information.. more layers = more expensive, more chances of something going wrong, etc.  via-in-pad is a whole 'nother world of hurt that's preferably avoided

My biggest concern is cooling. Any thoughts on this ?

As with the chips you're already used to, vias to a plane on the other side, main cooling element there.  You could see if the ground pins can be through-via'd to the other side (rather than to an internal layer, if used).  The datasheet doesn't seem to mention power dissipation, so choice of cooling element (anodized at exposed areas) would probably have to come after you've got prototypes complete.  Maybe @blackarrow can shed some more light on that, though

( tbh, given the chip has practically only a single purpose and scant few features are optional, I'm surprised to see no 'typical application and layout' section in the datasheet. Would certainly help get their chips to market on products. )

[bobsag3]

For sure the first test board will be with minimum layers.
The if this fails you can go to the next level.
There will be plenty of time for this during FW is written and debugged.
My biggest concern is cooling.
Any thoughts on this ?

They are going to use their massive air cooling solution for theirs, but I know CoolIT is very interested in getting involved, so if someone's board design would like to go that route, I can put them in touch with the right people

Also if someone in the US buys enough chips, I have BA's permission to deliver them by hand lol.

[Bicknellski]

then again this would be laid out automatically with the cad software and I believe that is something requiring some pretty extensive modules in a CAD software something our team doesn't have.

While the power pins area can be autorouted (assuming that's what you meant), I'd just route the signal pins manually first.  But yes, try to get more information.. more layers = more expensive, more chances of something going wrong, etc.  via-in-pad is a whole 'nother world of hurt that's preferably avoided

My biggest concern is cooling. Any thoughts on this ?

As with the chips you're already used to, vias to a plane on the other side, main cooling element there.  You could see if the ground pins can be through-via'd to the other side (rather than to an internal layer, if used).  The datasheet doesn't seem to mention power dissipation, so choice of cooling element (anodized at exposed areas) would probably have to come after you've got prototypes complete.  Maybe @blackarrow can shed some more light on that, though

( tbh, given the chip has practically only a single purpose and scant few features are optional, I'm surprised to see no 'typical application and layout' section in the datasheet. Would certainly help get their chips to market on products. )

Yes exactly... the world of hurt is the issue really and anything that might cause higher fabrication error rates is something you must avoid given the price of a single chip. For us it will require our team to invest in more upgrades to Allegro. We are probably going to look at work to a certain point then have someone with the skills and tools to do that aspect. Be interesting, if you want to sit in our meeting, to bend our EE's ear on this as well TheRealSteve let me know I can PM you the details.

Cooling with these are less of problem than with the A1's that is for sure in terms it is not 70% 30% top and bottom. As time goes on these boards will all need some exotic cooling ala Allied Control / Asicminer farm in HK. I am hoping our Hammer Whiteface board will be tested in HK at Allied Control in a new 2 phase system they are designing... potentially from that prototype we could have a Minion Whiteface and "R" Whiteface will be dunked in some Novec but that is something everyone is going to have to move towards if they are going for increased density. Immersion cooling can save you a lot of money.

[marto74]

Soooo
1-st of May passed.
I paid 540 USD for 5 sample chips
and no info ,no tracking, no communication at all
My account in blackarrow is removed


Is this SCAM ?

tracking info received by e-mail

[BillTech]

woah 

[B1]

Soooo
1-st of May passed.
I paid 540 USD for 5 sample chips
and no info ,no tracking, no communication at all
My account in blackarrow is removed


Is this SCAM ?

Then no need to concern about layer & cooling yet until there is anyproof of sample availability LOL

[joeventura]

The winner will be the community since the discounts require GPL designs going out that is the focus right? Just a note Marto you want to worry more about making your current customers happier as opposed to worrying about some sort of phony staged competition or race with us. We are not your competition.

Bick this here is a joke in return of you almost caling us scam in Zefir's coincraft tread.
Our problems with customers are in the past.
And our small team of 3 people for design hw sw and production did already 7 succesful mining board projects.
I'm  just inviting you EE team in a small competition for fun.
You chose to change the subject.... Why ?
Are you in or not

In the past? Your problems will be in the past when you refund my BTC1.34 that you stole from me.

[Bicknellski]

The winner will be the community since the discounts require GPL designs going out that is the focus right? Just a note Marto you want to worry more about making your current customers happier as opposed to worrying about some sort of phony staged competition or race with us. We are not your competition.

Bick this here is a joke in return of you almost caling us scam in Zefir's coincraft tread.
Our problems with customers are in the past.
And our small team of 3 people for design hw sw and production did already 7 succesful mining board projects.
I'm  just inviting you EE team in a small competition for fun.
You chose to change the subject.... Why ?
Are you in or not

In the past? Your problems will be in the past when you refund my BTC1.34 that you stole from me.

Ya he has some gall eh?