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Author Topic: [ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11  (Read 488502 times)
CatKiwi
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April 23, 2014, 11:37:55 PM
 #221

It's about time someone with an actual legal background in Company Law and the Law of Contract set the record straight.

The whole premise behind a limited liability company is that shareholders can ONLY lose that which they put into the venture. If you put in $100 and the company goes completely bust (unlikely given the outstanding new devs and the 4 revenue streams they have so far) then you will only lose $100 - your liability is limited. Rule #1 in Company law is that the shareholders cannot be chased up or made IN ANY WAY responsible for the debts or liabilities of the company.

In this situation we are not even shareholders as there was no offer of securities to the public - we are handing over Karmacoin in return for a share of profits. It is a contract between you and Kosmost with full legal effect. The only person who could possibly be sued is Kosmost and ONLY by those who invested Karmacoin and ONLY if he failed to pay out the share of profits as agreed in the contract. I for one have 100% confidence in Kosmost, he is a smart man who has done a heck of a lot and invested much of his own money into this. It would be nuts to break the contract when by upholding his side of it the company can operate into the future making more and more money for all involved.

The reason we cannot be shareholders in the company 'legally' is because we would need to supply ID and sign documents etc. - No one wants nor needs to do that - that is why Kosmost has presented it as a simple unilateral contract.

The offer (to the whole world) is that "If you send Karmacoin to this address I (Kosmost) will guarantee you a share of the company's profits each quarter by the formula in the spreadsheet".

The contract is unilateral because the acceptance and performance are completed at the same time and ONLY KOSMOST has any obligation (Unilateral = One promise being exchanged). By sending Karmacoin to the specified address you are accepting the offer made by Kosmost AND performing (supplying consideration) what is required for the contract to be binding. The contract is legally formed and enforceable at law from that moment on. If Kosmost did not pay out in accordance with the formula he would open himself up PERSONALLY (as the named offeror) to proceedings for damages by those who were not paid.

Furthermore, only parties to a contract can make a claim on that contract (Contract Law Rule #1) and as the contract is unilateral (only one party has any obligation - i.e. You have no obligation to send Karmacoin to the address, but if you do then Kosmost is obligated to pay you a share of the profits in accordance with the formula as per the offer) the only person who can make a claim on that contract is YOU. Not some third party who doesn't like Karmashares, not some moron who thinks he can take back control of a public domain cryptocurrency he left for dead weeks ago, and certainly not anyone thinking they have some form of intellectual property rights in any material used - They do not - Once creative works have entered the public domain (includes the person who made them posting it on a forum) it is considered as being made open to the public and they can never be claimed to be 'copyright' or 'patented' again.

For example, the reason Coca Cola guards its trade secret of the ingredients in Coca Cola so carefully is because IF someone did manage to get their hands on it and upload to the internet it would be worthless and would enter the public domain - every one could LEGALLY make exact copies of Coca Cola and there would be no remedy available to Coca Cola to stop this from happening.

Another example, lets say I invent a new widget, I upload the specs and plans for that widget onto a forum and say "check it out guys! Look what I made!" - Someone then takes those plans and patents them. Bad luck pal! That is how the law works - you no longer have any claim to those ideas unless you can claim they were shown to you in circumstances importing an obligation of confidence - release on a public forum does not satisfy this and therefore more fool you for letting everyone have free access to your idea.

To sum up - Karmagood is woefully off in everyone of claims. He possesses no legal understanding of neither Contract or Company law and it shows.

Of note, he continues to refer to himself as 'We' - trying to make you think there is more than one person involved in the opposition to this idea. Please see what is being said by him for what it is - nonsense of the highest order.

I implore you to Google "Basic principles of the Law of Companies" and "Basic of Contract Law" and perhaps even "When is a promise enforceable?" and just put your mind at rest by verifying everything I have written above.

Pay no attention to Karmagood from this point forward, he has been cut out of the loop of a project he deserted through his inaction and unwillingness to be engaged with the community for weeks on end along with his general ineptitude. He has absolutely no power nor rights in relation to Karma. You DO NOT open yourself up to any liability by sending Karmacoin to the Karmashares Ltd. address - anyone who says otherwise is, pardon the expression, 'talking out of their ass'.

Have a great day all and lets get behind Karma as a community once more Smiley
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cryptowho
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April 24, 2014, 12:03:40 AM
 #222

hear, hear


lets just move forward. lets not waste any more time with this nonsense.


Anyone has any other ideas about karmacoin and karmashares?

looking for C++ coders , web-dev and coin-devs to join karmacoin team. We are trying to expand. we have so many goals. Challenge accepted?  PM me.
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April 24, 2014, 12:58:14 AM
 #223

When did Karmacoin launched?

ShareCoin: SXwMvagiFbfPdL3bTzETZdm2G3VrnEt22S
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April 24, 2014, 01:18:21 AM
 #224

http://explorer.karmacoin.me/address/K8rMbDnZ7xX9VqBXmLwA7DCnYra1ftw3gE
seem down today... Why ?

Bitcoin - 1NCmJ3hXLywaRHTsnm17rGkaJbjtbiKxZW
mashac
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April 24, 2014, 01:56:14 AM
 #225

Yeah, that link is down....

By the way, beware of the people who spread FUD to crash the coin's uptrend, so that they can buy more at cheap prices... Many people are now realising Karmacoin's potential, and it's a perfect opportunity for huge gains..... Believing in LLC is strictly one's personal choice, you either miss or aboard the KarmaLLC train.. that choice is your's to make...For me, the current team is what brought the nearly dead coin back to life... I'm convinced about their ability and vision... and I like it... so I bought Karmashares.. What the team doing was working really good for the coin, until Karmagood and some others decided to spread FUD on the forum.... Please people, no more negativity...
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April 24, 2014, 02:02:26 AM
 #226

The link is up.
ShawnLeary
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April 24, 2014, 02:03:45 AM
 #227

As a proof or my confidence in our plans, I'd just sent 400 000 000 KARM to KarkasharesLLC.

You can find it here : http://explorer.karmacoin.me/address/K8rMbDnZ7xX9VqBXmLwA7DCnYra1ftw3gE7
(Last 5 transactions 111544 to 111548).

Go forward !  Wink

Wow!  Dat a lot a KARMs!!!  Shocked  Shocked  Shocked

"We have the power to begin the world over again" - Thomas Paine
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April 24, 2014, 02:11:59 AM
 #228

Please note. The Shares & Points list has been updated: http://karmashares.com/explorer-v01

Very cool! 

"We have the power to begin the world over again" - Thomas Paine
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April 24, 2014, 02:17:06 AM
 #229

When did Karmacoin launched?

Feb 4th, 2014

"We have the power to begin the world over again" - Thomas Paine
cryptowho
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April 24, 2014, 02:29:06 AM
 #230

When did Karmacoin launched?

Feb 4th, 2014

3rd Tongue

for some of us

looking for C++ coders , web-dev and coin-devs to join karmacoin team. We are trying to expand. we have so many goals. Challenge accepted?  PM me.
ryannguyen18
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April 24, 2014, 02:54:20 AM
 #231


working now....

Bitcoin - 1NCmJ3hXLywaRHTsnm17rGkaJbjtbiKxZW
ShawnLeary
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April 24, 2014, 03:28:06 AM
 #232

It's about time someone with an actual legal background in Company Law and the Law of Contract set the record straight.

The whole premise behind a limited liability company is that shareholders can ONLY lose that which they put into the venture. If you put in $100 and the company goes completely bust (unlikely given the outstanding new devs and the 4 revenue streams they have so far) then you will only lose $100 - your liability is limited. Rule #1 in Company law is that the shareholders cannot be chased up or made IN ANY WAY responsible for the debts or liabilities of the company.

In this situation we are not even shareholders as there was no offer of securities to the public - we are handing over Karmacoin in return for a share of profits. It is a contract between you and Kosmost with full legal effect. The only person who could possibly be sued is Kosmost and ONLY by those who invested Karmacoin and ONLY if he failed to pay out the share of profits as agreed in the contract. I for one have 100% confidence in Kosmost, he is a smart man who has done a heck of a lot and invested much of his own money into this. It would be nuts to break the contract when by upholding his side of it the company can operate into the future making more and more money for all involved.

The reason we cannot be shareholders in the company 'legally' is because we would need to supply ID and sign documents etc. - No one wants nor needs to do that - that is why Kosmost has presented it as a simple unilateral contract.

The offer (to the whole world) is that "If you send Karmacoin to this address I (Kosmost) will guarantee you a share of the company's profits each quarter by the formula in the spreadsheet".

The contract is unilateral because the acceptance and performance are completed at the same time and ONLY KOSMOST has any obligation (Unilateral = One promise being exchanged). By sending Karmacoin to the specified address you are accepting the offer made by Kosmost AND performing (supplying consideration) what is required for the contract to be binding. The contract is legally formed and enforceable at law from that moment on. If Kosmost did not pay out in accordance with the formula he would open himself up PERSONALLY (as the named offeror) to proceedings for damages by those who were not paid.

Furthermore, only parties to a contract can make a claim on that contract (Contract Law Rule #1) and as the contract is unilateral (only one party has any obligation - i.e. You have no obligation to send Karmacoin to the address, but if you do then Kosmost is obligated to pay you a share of the profits in accordance with the formula as per the offer) the only person who can make a claim on that contract is YOU. Not some third party who doesn't like Karmashares, not some moron who thinks he can take back control of a public domain cryptocurrency he left for dead weeks ago, and certainly not anyone thinking they have some form of intellectual property rights in any material used - They do not - Once creative works have entered the public domain (includes the person who made them posting it on a forum) it is considered as being made open to the public and they can never be claimed to be 'copyright' or 'patented' again.

For example, the reason Coca Cola guards its trade secret of the ingredients in Coca Cola so carefully is because IF someone did manage to get their hands on it and upload to the internet it would be worthless and would enter the public domain - every one could LEGALLY make exact copies of Coca Cola and there would be no remedy available to Coca Cola to stop this from happening.

Another example, lets say I invent a new widget, I upload the specs and plans for that widget onto a forum and say "check it out guys! Look what I made!" - Someone then takes those plans and patents them. Bad luck pal! That is how the law works - you no longer have any claim to those ideas unless you can claim they were shown to you in circumstances importing an obligation of confidence - release on a public forum does not satisfy this and therefore more fool you for letting everyone have free access to your idea.

To sum up - Karmagood is woefully off in everyone of claims. He possesses no legal understanding of neither Contract or Company law and it shows.

Of note, he continues to refer to himself as 'We' - trying to make you think there is more than one person involved in the opposition to this idea. Please see what is being said by him for what it is - nonsense of the highest order.

I implore you to Google "Basic principles of the Law of Companies" and "Basic of Contract Law" and perhaps even "When is a promise enforceable?" and just put your mind at rest by verifying everything I have written above.

Pay no attention to Karmagood from this point forward, he has been cut out of the loop of a project he deserted through his inaction and unwillingness to be engaged with the community for weeks on end along with his general ineptitude. He has absolutely no power nor rights in relation to Karma. You DO NOT open yourself up to any liability by sending Karmacoin to the Karmashares Ltd. address - anyone who says otherwise is, pardon the expression, 'talking out of their ass'.

Have a great day all and lets get behind Karma as a community once more Smiley

Please post this, if you already haven't, in the KarmaCoin sub.  it's perfectly said. 

"We have the power to begin the world over again" - Thomas Paine
kosmost
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April 24, 2014, 05:09:25 AM
 #233

I'm getting a 404 error http://karmashares.com/!points/KAXUrt9RYNf7PBrUvkw9RRpMyHiwcAqSEY.pdf

My mistake. It should be working now.

Thanks for letting me know.
kosmost
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April 24, 2014, 05:21:17 AM
 #234

It's about time someone with an actual legal background in Company Law and the Law of Contract set the record straight.

The whole premise behind a limited liability company is that shareholders can ONLY lose that which they put into the venture. If you put in $100 and the company goes completely bust (unlikely given the outstanding new devs and the 4 revenue streams they have so far) then you will only lose $100 - your liability is limited. Rule #1 in Company law is that the shareholders cannot be chased up or made IN ANY WAY responsible for the debts or liabilities of the company.

[snip]

Well said. I would only add that membership (LLC ownership) will be by a person's wallet address, I have been informed by both an accountant and a lawyer (the latter of whom is doing this and is in good position to say) that it can be done. It would probably be the first of its kind, backed by the publicly-accessible member register (blockchain).

So, in that way, the LLC will be structured to facilitate automatic entry of members (or, more likely, vest the power to approve the new members in the manager based on certain parameters in the blockchain being met).

That would be me saying, "ownership will be based on these parameters" (the ones that I have documented). It requires a proxy granted by members to the manager. Everything will be public information including profits, which wallet address holds what, etc. I have also been informed that profits can be distributed by BTC transfer, which is good.

But when the LLC operating agreement is finished it will be posted for all to see, in its entirety, and available for reference by other coins that wish to do the same thing. Then everyone can understand what the hell this new kind of structure is.
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April 24, 2014, 05:24:38 AM
 #235

Chinese translation of Karmashares should be finished in a few days.

Hopefully, we can get Karmacoin done, too, but that will take longer.
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April 24, 2014, 05:31:20 AM
 #236

I'm getting a 404 error http://karmashares.com/!points/KAXUrt9RYNf7PBrUvkw9RRpMyHiwcAqSEY.pdf

My mistake. It should be working now.

Thanks for letting me know.

Kosmost can the community who trust you and your teams' effort request that the CERTIFICATE of shares contain the LLC official address, YOUR actual name and your digital signature (SIGNATURE as you sign by PEN) and a SIGNATURE of the SECURED WALLET you use for cold storage?

At least these certificates will then actually contain VERIFIABLE details.

YOU KNOW THAT I AM YOU AND YOUR TEAM'S SUPPORTER, SO I AM NOT TROLLING HERE.

TIP ME ₭ARMA:  KJeEKJv1LXHM8cYeRgQG3q87BFA4W3sTGg  FOR KARMA TRANSLATION BUDGET SEND TO: KHvkhA7RTFnG8N5RWPB48gs2y8K1od6xF4
OFF. ₭ARMA FB PAGE: https://www.facebook.com/karmacoin.me. http://lill.com
kosmost
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April 24, 2014, 05:40:57 AM
 #237

I'm getting a 404 error http://karmashares.com/!points/KAXUrt9RYNf7PBrUvkw9RRpMyHiwcAqSEY.pdf

My mistake. It should be working now.

Thanks for letting me know.

Kosmost can the community who trust you and your teams' effort request that the CERTIFICATE of shares contain the LLC official address, YOUR actual name and your digital signature (SIGNATURE as you sign by PEN) and a SIGNATURE of the SECURED WALLET you use for cold storage?

At least these certificates will then actually contain VERIFIABLE details.

YOU KNOW THAT I AM YOU AND YOUR TEAM'S SUPPORTER, SO I AM NOT TROLLING HERE.

It's a good idea. It will be considered.
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April 24, 2014, 05:46:27 AM
 #238

we need to change the KarmaCoin motto from "Doing good is good" and add a line under it.. "Arguing the toss doesn't do anyone any good..."

the bottom line is...

Keep your Karma Coins if you trust no one but like the idea of a currency based on giving.

if you want your Karma Coins to be used by someone you trust a little bit in the hopes of maybe getting a bigger reward then invest in Karma Shares.

Don't forget that the Karmacoins have risen in value 3X over the past few days because of the new initiatives on offer.. so even if you do nothing and don't agree, the project has already helped to grow the value of your Karma. the only people who should not be happy about that are those people who dumped their coins at low prices and, by virtue of them dumping their coins, they are no longer stakeholders so they shouldn't care one way or the other what happens next.

Even if you want to be really cynical and play devils advocate... the worst that can happen if KarmaShares fails completely is that a whole bunch of coins get taken out of circulation for long while which actually increases value (in the meantime) for those people who still hold KarmaCoins...

so every cloud still has its silver lining, even if you don't like the cloud and even if that cloud turns out to be nothing more than vapour..

KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
cryptowho
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April 24, 2014, 06:03:04 AM
 #239

^^^


We are dealing with people here. maybe they sold and not realize the potential and are trying to spread FUD to lower the price.





bllah , i wish people would stop talking money here and focus on what we can do to grown in numbers.


we have a great goal. we have a good commuity. at least 1000 strong. 200 very active. 

can no one bring ideas to the table?

can no one offer their web dev skills?

can no one offer they C++ skills?


Let's go guys let push forward

looking for C++ coders , web-dev and coin-devs to join karmacoin team. We are trying to expand. we have so many goals. Challenge accepted?  PM me.
easteagle13
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April 24, 2014, 07:22:11 AM
 #240

Please note. The Shares & Points list has been updated: karmashares.com/explorer-v01

Is there a reason why some donations have a downloadable PDF available and others do not? Even if they are already confirmed with a signed message?

They're all downloadable. You can just paste in your wallet address.

For example: karmashares.com/!points/KVn4p5CCEAp2PMpSBqbv5N3RetBnAjKL8d.pdf

but some wallets have more than 1 PDF (multiple purchases). So to make it easier I just provided a link to them.

Apologies for the confusion. Let me know if you have any other questions or concerns. (I may not answer soon, though.. sleepytime!)

SLEEEPY TIME !!!!?Huh The android is sleeeppy Smiley

TIP ME ₭ARMA:  KJeEKJv1LXHM8cYeRgQG3q87BFA4W3sTGg  FOR KARMA TRANSLATION BUDGET SEND TO: KHvkhA7RTFnG8N5RWPB48gs2y8K1od6xF4
OFF. ₭ARMA FB PAGE: https://www.facebook.com/karmacoin.me. http://lill.com
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