[ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11

[bitwho]

here an interesting blog-piece on mining (pools), 51% attacks etc:

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/06/19/mining/

+1

they are a very smart team over at Etherium (some of the smartest in the entire world wide crypto industry)..  I will be participating in the Etherium ipo when they finally launch it.

definitely worth the read for anyone who is paranoid about the 51%

its interesting that bitcoin had 3 x 51% attacks in its life and its still long and strong...

This article discusses the weaknesses and costs of PoW. Until Karma is the biggest scrypt coin Karma isn't even able to be compared to the security of Bitcoin and as the article clearly outlines Bitcoin isn't as secure as people like to think.

I'd like to see such a detailed article about PoS and PoW+PoS combinations.

Chargin.

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/6528/

http://www.reddit.com/r/dogecoindev/comments/289ki5/okay_lets_talk_proofofstake/

Which Proof of Stake System is the Most Viable
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=584703.60

Re: Proof of stake instead of proof of work
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=615843.0

[ANNOUNCE] Bitcoin Cooperative Proof-of-Stake - CPoS
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=584719.0

rpietila Altcoin Observer    (it's not POS focused but it does talk about some POS coins. i think )
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=624223.0


have fun

And here is my view posted on an other forum . It was late when i typed this. i never got back and fixed the typos and made it more clearer. its late right now so i am not going to do it tonight as well.
Below i give a brief karma history and then explain why we need pow. Hence POW>POS :

POW is the answer. So far,POW has proven to be the only greater way to spread the coins decentralized. No other method has proven to distribute the coins to as many people and as fairly.

This is what made bitcoin great and it was the selling point that made litecoin what it is now. Litecoin was created because bitcoin Pow was starting to be centralized by fpga* ( sorry late, cant think to recall the proper name. but basically mining rigs that were outperforming regular miners) So mr Lee created litecoin. changed the algo to scrypt and claimed to be fpga* and now ASIC proof. even though litecoin was instamined , it become so hyped that everyone jumped on it. Soon enough all the new coins stopped going to 20 wallets but went to 1000s. This is the proper purpose of the coin. to be decentralized. because so MANY miners were involved it got a lot of attention. soon the price rose because those who coin not mine it so the potential and started outbidding each other. funny enough, the miners were the most buyers! Reason is simple. miners are always involved with the community. they are always interacting because the have to be 24/7 alert in case something goes wrong.


The thing about POW together with Multi billion coins is that they give opportunities for new People to join our community. While some of us might have an easy way to buy bitcoins, most of people around the world can't. And even those that can, they have to send out personal info to exchanges or send fiat via regular mail and wait for weeks before they see their bitcoin. no one trust the exchanges and they do not want to risk it. So bitcoin community is loosing a lot of new buyers to litecoin because they do not want to go through that hustle but they can just buy some GPUs from a trusted site online and with in 2 days start mining litecoin. And now all the other clones because litecoin dif is too high.

What i mean by this is that via POW the cryptoworld is daily gaining new members converted. POW also allows other members from other communities to jump on our coin if they chose. and because we are in billions, a miner will get some nice chunks that will look appealing. its more rewarding to have 10000 Karmas than mining litecoin all day for 0.02Litecoins. even thought the values are the same
_______________________________________________________________________________ ______

alright this was a prep to to understand better on what i mean below here

Therefore POW:
1: Is a gateway for new members which will in fact become additional buyers and most active members
2: Still the best method to distribute the new coins created ( for few weeks until ASIC kick in  )
3: Current miners will rush to dump us if we cut the POW or manipulate it to squeeze them

So unless something horrible off is proven to come from scrypt algo then we should not change the POW

We can see in the bitcoin community that each day newbs make a post on how much bitcoin they can mine with their laptops. Those noobs get turned to buying better mining equipments which gets them to learn about litecoin. then they see that litecoin is too hard to mine so they look for the next fallback which will us!
Heck, now that i think about it I followed this exact steps!

Again this it to give you my opinion on why POW for karma is good and should not be interfered with. Unless its POW/POS


here is and interesting topic that shows that Scrypt algo has potential to be modified by randomizing it and make it ASIC resistant. I foresee a proper code to come out in near future that will help us stay decentralized
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=624912.msg6941381#msg6941381


Now: About us going fully POS. Well we will limit ourselves form the potential new clients via POW. I think with POS you close the door to everyone and the only way to get the coins is via buying. Most of the fully POS coins are struggling. they do not get new wave of buyer but it seems its the same one buying and selling. they do not show signs of growing in numbers.

This is not taking into consideration POW+POS


Disclaimer: These are my opinions and i am not representing KarmaTeam's  view in regard to this topics

[1714038294]

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[1714038294]

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[dbstmddhks]

I hope the hash protect this coin..!

[Alphi]

I'd like to see such a detailed article about PoS and PoW+PoS combinations.

Here is a whitepaper which explains the nothing at stake attack.

http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

in my view this is much worse than a 51% attack because it requires less processing power and once someone has successfully carried out an attack their success rate increases exponentially. (unlike PoW attacks which decrease after each successive attempt, because the network/community is able to react to an attack)

Pow+Pos combinations in their various flavours are vulnerable to both 51% attack and nothing at stake attack at different times. Anyone who tells you their coin is more secure without providing proof is lying.

the problem of securing a PoS coin is not easy and that is why there are so many all-star dev teams backed by multi million dollar funding working on it. (bitshares, etherium, NXT, ripple etc etc etc)

if you think that Karma has the necessary expertise and funding to pull off a secure PoS or even Hybrid implementation without issue then by all means go right ahead. But if not then you are just asking for the community to take a gamble that they might get a short term reward at the risk of seriously devaluing their investment.

here is some further reading on some of the more popular PoS systems and why this author thinks they are flawed.
http://bitshares.org/delegated-proof-of-stake/

[Alphi]

360 ltc buy order just bought karma to 200 litoshi...

650 ltc buy wall at 180 litoshis....

oh yeah!

edit: thats like 340 mill of coins .. we wont be seeing those coin anytime soon.

you can see how a bot is trying to push the price down

0000185   3000.00000000   0.00555000
0.00000193   5000.00000000   0.00965000
0.00000195   5000.00000000   0.00975000
0.00000200   5000.00000000   0.01000000

don't let wishful thinking fool you into believing that the manipulation is only happening downwards...
someone has 800+ LTC across mitpal and crypsy trying to manipulate the price upwards.

this person (or persons) does not want to buy 800+ LTC worth of karma.. if they did then they would have bought using small orders at market prices without showing their hand.

[huige007]

BTC / Karma market. Let people know Karma.

[onetoc]

3567 blocks till block rewards get cut in 1/3.

[learminer]

I agree with Alphi, often a buywall like that is a sign of an incoming whale exit. Trying to push up price before the dump. In this case it might also be someone trying to hold price up to get that BTC market though.

Try selling some tens of millions into that wall, see if it budges. Then we will know.

[MineP.it]

Hey guys.. We've had quite a few votes for Karmacoin on our pool voting system - so here it is!

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Join us now!

[RodrigoHenrik]

Karma is now available on Bleutrade



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[testbug]

Pool of Honor pool is closing the karma.poolsofhonor.com due to small interest in our pool. Please withdraw your remaining coins (still about 5mio coins)
We are closing within 24h, on the 22th june 2014, about 9:00 forum time.
A payout after the pool is closed isnt possible!!!!!

[altcoingood]

someone (KSuMdJs8HBadqMkjH1STiovDAABCqnTXBA) on the p2pool has setup his miners incorrectly.

if you are reading this you are using KSuMdJs8HBadqMkjH1STiovDAABCqnTXBA.<rig id> for your miners but that is not how p2pool works. Either remove .<rig id> or create a separate wallet-address for each rig.

you have not lost your karma. it gets tranferred over to fee and since fees are 0% at the moment it's pretty easy for me to calculate how much you are earning and send you the karma. once you have your rigs setup correctly please contact me.

you can also get in touch in #karmacoin on freenode.

[Chargin]

360 ltc buy order just bought karma to 200 litoshi...

650 ltc buy wall at 180 litoshis....

oh yeah!

edit: thats like 340 mill of coins .. we wont be seeing those coin anytime soon.

you can see how a bot is trying to push the price down

0000185   3000.00000000   0.00555000
0.00000193   5000.00000000   0.00965000
0.00000195   5000.00000000   0.00975000
0.00000200   5000.00000000   0.01000000

don't let wishful thinking fool you into believing that the manipulation is only happening downwards...
someone has 800+ LTC across mitpal and crypsy trying to manipulate the price upwards.

this person (or persons) does not want to buy 800+ LTC worth of karma.. if they did then they would have bought using small orders at market prices without showing their hand.

It's hard to tell. Somebody is trying to buy in because they know Karma is quite on weekends or somebody is trying to pump and aren't very good at it and don't know Karma is quite on weekends. We don't know if they have been buying in slowly but then got impatient as the block 1/3rding got closer and the Bitcoin market started getting more likely. I think they actually bought 100s of millions of Karma up to 200 Litoshi yesterday when the buy wall was being put in place. The price was realistically around 160 before this so putting the buy order so high if you don't want to purchase is pretty risky unless they have a lot Litecoin or Bitcoin to back it up. They aren't outbidding themselves regularly to make it look like the market price is increasing which might encourage people to jump in with their own buy orders which they could then sell to. I think they actually want to buy in (at 3 Satoshi) and are daring somebody to dump on them. What they do when they get the Karma is anyone's guess. Since the order has been there almost a day I don't think any large bag holders want somebody pumping and dumping Karma especially now with so many other things going on nor do they want to give their Karma to another whale that wants to hold for the long term so it is looking unlikely somebody will just give the Karma to them.

Given the timing I think somebody is looking to do a large Bitcoin pump on Karma, very large based on the amount they are trying to buy.

The Bitcoin market will probably open up after things somewhat stabilise after the block thirding, assuming Mintpal knows that is coming up.

Either way I just want something to happen, outbid or sell to them, the suspense is killing me! Market boom or bust I don't care.  

I'll stop speculating for now, even though it is so fun. There are so many possibilities I'm more likely to be wrong than right, which I don't want to make a habit of.  

Chargin.

[ShawnLeary]

3567 blocks till block rewards get cut in 1/3.

You mean cut to 1/3 of what they are currently.

[dbstmddhks]

Alter coin needs two thing
1. Attempt to recover the weakness of bitcoin
2. Worth to hold

Firdt thing is so hard to solve for one dev team
But second thing is not hard mission to do but many coins
didn't do this second thing. Only clones!
But karma makes something interesting things linke lill.com

This movement is really good and essential.
I hope the karma shows the 'real value' to the tons of clone coins

[youseeberkeley]

Massive buy wall on mint haha, only 920,000 possible karmillionaires, better buy up, I feel something big coming!

[Chargin]

Thanks for the links Alphi and Bitwho.
I like the PoS system suggested in the article below.
http://bitshares.org/delegated-proof-of-stake/

I’d use interest instead of transaction fees though to make sure the rewards are more consistent and maintain interest in Karma as a cheap way to transfer funds.

I’d also combine it with PoW so that the PoW locks in the PoS transactions after say 1-28 days as well as seconds any PoS result. The PoW/PoS should have some mechanism so the number of blocks in each is roughly the same or always at the same ratio.

Clients wouldn’t consider a transaction to be valid in the first place unless both PoW and PoS chains agree (ie they will need a certain number of confirmations on each, I think an hour worth is reasonable).

After 1 to 28 days of blocks that are in agreement there can be a checkpoint so transactions are absolutely irreversible. That doesn't mean an exchange will need to wait 28 days to know they received Karma, it just means they can be extremely sure the transaction won’t be reversed.

I’d make it so each of 100 nodes require an amount of Karma, say 0.1% of total coins (at most), which increases in line with the total amount of Karma.

As well as the addresses I’d allow the client to show a signed message from that user, which could link to something that shows who they are (their choice of what if anything it links to) so you know of you should trust them with a node or not.

You would of course need to provide enough of a reward to both PoW miners and PoS minters, both on an percentage basis so the ratio between them remained the same, to make it worth their while to make sure that the network is both protected and that transactions are being processed.

It could be an incredibly secure system if revised and done correctly.

I think for a coin that is already established it is more likely a more proven system would be used so the above is for a theoretical coin which may never exist.  

Chargin.

[perhan007]

it's hard to believe how the wonderful coin and project are stil being ignored by the masses.

Most people consider coins with LTC only markets to be garbage or aren't ready to pay the trade fee twice. On the other side, you can still buy large amounts of KARMA for little money. Currently, there are 259.302.962 KARMA available @ Cryptsy and 696.168.776 @ Mintpal, so almost a billion coin, for up to 300 litoshi. To get there would require 2747 LTC or approx. 44 BTC, which is nothing taking into consideration that you would own almost 2% of all coins.

[ptman]

it's hard to believe how the wonderful coin and project are stil being ignored by the masses.

Most people consider coins with LTC only markets to be garbage or aren't ready to pay the trade fee twice. On the other side, you can still buy large amounts of KARMA for little money. Currently, there are 259.302.962 KARMA available @ Cryptsy and 696.168.776 @ Mintpal, so almost a billion coin, for up to 300 litoshi. To get there would require 2747 LTC or approx. 44 BTC, which is nothing taking into consideration that you would own almost 2% of all coins.

Each Karma will be worth 300 litoshi in a matter of days.

But I think that in the meantime we would all be much more productive if we did not talked so much about the price (it will go up and up and up!) and did more work (think about ideas for new IPCOs, help karma team with anything you can help, etc) to make the value (not only the price, but also including the price) skyrocket in the long term.

[perhan007]

it's hard to believe how the wonderful coin and project are stil being ignored by the masses.

Most people consider coins with LTC only markets to be garbage or aren't ready to pay the trade fee twice. On the other side, you can still buy large amounts of KARMA for little money. Currently, there are 259.302.962 KARMA available @ Cryptsy and 696.168.776 @ Mintpal, so almost a billion coin, for up to 300 litoshi. To get there would require 2747 LTC or approx. 44 BTC, which is nothing taking into consideration that you would own almost 2% of all coins.

Each Karma will be worth 300 litoshi in a matter of days.

But I think that in the meantime we would all be much more productive if we did not talked so much about the price (it will go up and up and up!) and did more work (think about ideas for new IPCOs, help karma team with anything you can help, etc) to make the value (not only the price, but also including the price) skyrocket in the long term.

Me and my company have a few ideas in connection with Karma but we cannot release them to the public yet

[mitache365]

think about multipool with X11 paying in KARMA.