Mt Gox to liquidate coins

[vpitcher07]

When 200K bitcoins will be dumped on bitstamp for fiat, with the current order book the price will indeed be zero:

They wont be dumped on Stamp for fiat....

That's making the assumption that the people selling are willing to take any price for their btc no?

[1714987688]

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[1714987688]

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[blatchcorn]

When 200K bitcoins will be dumped on bitstamp for fiat, with the current order book the price will indeed be zero:

They wont be dumped on Stamp for fiat....

That's making the assumption that the people selling are willing to take any price for their btc no?

What is going to happen is that the price will drop a bit.  Everyone will snap up the coins for a cheaper price, establishing huge levels of support.  Price is back to pre-liquidation levels within 1 month.

[Massimo80]

So then it is confirmed that Gox' coins will be liquidated and no BTC balances returned to the users.

The published document doesn't say anything like that. It says instead quite the contrary: an audit of company assets will be conducted, proof of claims will be filed by creditors and found company assets will be used to (at least partly) repay them.

Nobody will probably get back everything he/she owns unless stolen/hidden money is found, but anything available will be refunded.

Why are you saying no balance will be returned to users?

[dreamspark]

They wont be dumped on Stamp for fiat....

No? Again
Quote:

Q. What is expected to happen under the bankruptcy proceedings?
A. The bankruptcy trustee will implement the bankruptcy proceedings, in which the assets of
the bankrupt entity will be managed and converted into cash, the investigation of the claims,
etc. will be conducted, and if funds for a distribution are secured, the liquidating distribution
will be made.


https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20140424_announce_qa_en.pdf

Again

Please point me to the part that says it will be dumped all at once for fiat on Stamp.

It says converted to cash there a slew of ways to do that and none of them will involve a market sell on Stamp.

[dreamspark]

So then it is confirmed that Gox' coins will be liquidated and no BTC balances returned to the users.

The published document doesn't say anything like that. It says instead quite the contrary: an audit of company assets will be conducted, proof of claims will be filed by creditors and found company assets will be used to (at least partly) repay them.

Nobody will probably get back everything he/she owns unless stolen/hidden money is found, but anything available will be refunded.

Why are you saying no balance will be returned to users?

Please read what I actually wrote;

"no BTC balances returned to the users.". The BTC will be converted to cash.

Q. What is expected to happen under the bankruptcy proceedings?
A. The bankruptcy trustee will implement the bankruptcy proceedings, in which the assets of
the bankrupt entity will be managed and converted into cash, the investigation of the claims,
etc. will be conducted, and if funds for a distribution are secured, the liquidating distribution
will be made.

[dreamspark]

That's making the assumption that the people selling are willing to take any price for their btc no?

Do you mean the liquidators when you say people selling or are you refering to the creditors?

If you are referring to the liquidators they don't really care how much they get, just whats quickest and easiest.

If you are refering to the creditors (gox coin holders) then they don't really have a say.

[w0lverine]

We should try to get more information about how these 200k coins will be treated. If they are to be liquidated then surely they will be auctioned. If so how many per lots, who will they be auctioned to?

If they fall in the right hands, this can actually a good thing for the future of the currency. However I seriously doubt that they will.

[cech4204a]

They are not that stupid to dump 200k BTC. They will be selling them slow, maybe 5k per day, so don't worry too much on price effect of dumping. Another effect is higher supply of BTC, which can lead to lower price yes, another thing is higher trust in BTC since something happened around Mt.Gox, which in the end is getting price to rise. So net effect is hardly predictible, but it may even cause higher price.

[dreamspark]

They are not that stupid to dump 200k BTC. They will be selling them slow, maybe 5k per day, so don't worry too much on price effect of dumping. Another effect is higher supply of BTC, which can lead to lower price yes, another thing is higher trust in BTC since something happened around Mt.Gox, which in the end is getting price to rise. So net effect is hardly predictible, but it may even cause higher price.

A few things;

They will not be selling them like that, its not how liquidations of assets go. However if they were to sell them on exchange it would definately have an effect on price, the volume on some days recently has been less than 5k!

Also
Can you clarify exactly what "another thing is higher trust in BTC since something happened around Mt.Gox" means.

[jack0m]

WTF?? Those 200k coins are NOT a Gox's asset, they can't sell them to repay fiat debt! They were just held on customers behalf, according to the TOS:

MT. GOX'S OBLIGATIONS

• ...
• 6. it will hold all monetary sums and all Bitcoins deposited by each Member in its Account, in that Member's name as registered in their Account details, and on such Member's behalf.

[gizmoh]

WTF, those 200k coins are NOT a Gox's asset, they can't sell them to repay fiat debt! They were just held on customers behalf, according to the TOS:

MT. GOX'S OBLIGATIONS

• ...
• 6. it will hold all monetary sums and all Bitcoins deposited by each Member in its Account, in that Member's name as registered in their Account details, and on such Member's behalf.

Since when does Mt.Gox TOS overrule bankruptcy procedure?

[jack0m]

WTF, those 200k coins are NOT a Gox's asset, they can't sell them to repay fiat debt! They were just held on customers behalf, according to the TOS:

MT. GOX'S OBLIGATIONS

• ...
• 6. it will hold all monetary sums and all Bitcoins deposited by each Member in its Account, in that Member's name as registered in their Account details, and on such Member's behalf.

Since when does Mt.Gox TOS overrule bankruptcy procedure?

since when can bankruptcy procedure allow to take ownership of any third party property? Those coins were NOT property of MtGox, rather they were customers property, and shall be returned to legitimate owners!

[Massimo80]

Please read what I actually wrote;

"no BTC balances returned to the users.". The BTC will be converted to cash.

Q. What is expected to happen under the bankruptcy proceedings?
A. The bankruptcy trustee will implement the bankruptcy proceedings, in which the assets of
the bankrupt entity will be managed and converted into cash, the investigation of the claims,
etc. will be conducted, and if funds for a distribution are secured, the liquidating distribution
will be made.

This depends a lot on the definition of "assets". Customer funds are not company assets. This does not even depend on what the company traded... if they traded coffee beans, beans held on behalf of customers would not have been company assets as well, they would still have belonged to customers and not to the company.

Selling office furniture, computers and cars is a thing... disposing of customer properties is something completely different. A bankruptcy trustee should know the difference very well.

[cech4204a]

They are not that stupid to dump 200k BTC. They will be selling them slow, maybe 5k per day, so don't worry too much on price effect of dumping. Another effect is higher supply of BTC, which can lead to lower price yes, another thing is higher trust in BTC since something happened around Mt.Gox, which in the end is getting price to rise. So net effect is hardly predictible, but it may even cause higher price.

A few things;

They will not be selling them like that, its not how liquidations of assets go. However if they were to sell them on exchange it would definately have an effect on price, the volume on some days recently has been less than 5k!

Also
Can you clarify exactly what "another thing is higher trust in BTC since something happened around Mt.Gox" means.

Where do you think you can sell 200k BTC? in local mcdonalds?

about higher trust:compare global public image of mtgox before they announced they have 200.000 btc and are willing to repay, and after

[Imerman2]

So then it is confirmed that Gox' coins will be liquidated and no BTC balances returned to the users.

https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20140424_announce_qa_en.pdf

What effect will this have on the market?

It said the company is liquidating, meaning it will lose all its assets, but I cannot find anywhere that it says it is liquidating its Bitcoins into fiat, it even contains questions regarding the release of Bitcoins to customers.  One of us is misreading this and I read it twice (though it is boring and I may have missed something).  All it seems to say is Mt. Gox as a company will not come back, it may be bought out by the proper buyer although they think finding such a buyer will be difficult, and the balances shown on the website only reflect the Bitcoin balances before the alleged hack the real balances are unknown. 

Am I missing something, it seems there is zero evidence of this claim, yet people are still discussing it.  What gives?

[dreamspark]

They are not that stupid to dump 200k BTC. They will be selling them slow, maybe 5k per day, so don't worry too much on price effect of dumping. Another effect is higher supply of BTC, which can lead to lower price yes, another thing is higher trust in BTC since something happened around Mt.Gox, which in the end is getting price to rise. So net effect is hardly predictible, but it may even cause higher price.

A few things;

They will not be selling them like that, its not how liquidations of assets go. However if they were to sell them on exchange it would definately have an effect on price, the volume on some days recently has been less than 5k!

Also
Can you clarify exactly what "another thing is higher trust in BTC since something happened around Mt.Gox" means.

Where do you think you can sell 200k BTC? in local mcdonalds?

about higher trust:compare global public image of mtgox before they announced they have 200.000 btc and are willing to repay, and after

No they would be sold at auction likely in lots.

I don't think you really understand what your talking about, there are plenty of people who are looking to buy large amounts of bitcoins off exchange for a number of reasons. Ill keep it simple for you and not go into all the reasons but try this one;

If I wanted to buy 10k BTC what do you think the price would go up to on exchange if I tried to that?

I'll be kind and give you another;

I dont really trust sending $2mm to an unregulated company how do I got about buying a large amount of BTC, yes right again off exchange.

The fact that you think people trust gox because they 'found' 200k BTC even though they lost 850k plus many millions of dollars is asinine.

[dreamspark]

So then it is confirmed that Gox' coins will be liquidated and no BTC balances returned to the users.

https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20140424_announce_qa_en.pdf

What effect will this have on the market?

It said the company is liquidating, meaning it will lose all its assets, but I cannot find anywhere that it says it is liquidating its Bitcoins into fiat, it even contains questions regarding the release of Bitcoins to customers.  One of us is misreading this and I read it twice (though it is boring and I may have missed something).  All it seems to say is Mt. Gox as a company will not come back, it may be bought out by the proper buyer although they think finding such a buyer will be difficult, and the balances shown on the website only reflect the Bitcoin balances before the alleged hack the real balances are unknown.  

Am I missing something, it seems there is zero evidence of this claim, yet people are still discussing it.  What gives?

Could you direct me to the part of the doc that discusses releasing Bitcoins to customers? The closest thing to that in the doc is that liquidity distribution will take place IF funds are secured. In other words after all is said and done there's still a chance that creditors get nothing back.

Plus is says that the bankruptcy trustee will consider distribution.

Liquidating Distribution:

Q. Will there be any liquidating distributionto the creditors? How will it be conducted?

A. The bankruptcy trustee will consider these matters as the bankruptcy proceedings progress.

While I agree saying that they were definately liquidating coins was hasty (This was posted after just the first read through)  the discussion has moved more from will or won't they liquidate them to how would this affect the market.

This is the most ambiguous part though

Q. Please return the bitcoins and cash that I deposited with the Company.

A. We will make the liquidating distribution to the bankruptcy claims if funds for distribution are secured. With regard to the liquidating distribution under the bankruptcy proceedings,please see below.

Why would they say if funds are secured? They know that the company has BTC secured so why no mention of this?

[Chrithu]

My guess: This is a standart document phrased in standart legal terms, which aren't specifically made to deal with situations involving crypto currency. If those "certain experts" are indeed experts and thus members of the bitcoin community I guess they will advise the bankruptcy trustee that the customers indeed get their BTC sent back as BTC if technically possible ( that means if the wallet of MTGox is still intact and in the trustees access).

I also agree with the guy in this thread that pointed out that the BTC the company held for their users can hardly be seen as company assets fit for liquidating in order to payout fiat creditors, not even legally. But i am no expert on that.

[tss]

Kobayashi is the lawyer.. Keyser Soze stole my coins!

[cech4204a]

They are not that stupid to dump 200k BTC. They will be selling them slow, maybe 5k per day, so don't worry too much on price effect of dumping. Another effect is higher supply of BTC, which can lead to lower price yes, another thing is higher trust in BTC since something happened around Mt.Gox, which in the end is getting price to rise. So net effect is hardly predictible, but it may even cause higher price.

A few things;

They will not be selling them like that, its not how liquidations of assets go. However if they were to sell them on exchange it would definately have an effect on price, the volume on some days recently has been less than 5k!

Also
Can you clarify exactly what "another thing is higher trust in BTC since something happened around Mt.Gox" means.

Where do you think you can sell 200k BTC? in local mcdonalds?

about higher trust:compare global public image of mtgox before they announced they have 200.000 btc and are willing to repay, and after

No they would be sold at auction likely in lots.

I don't think you really understand what your talking about, there are plenty of people who are looking to buy large amounts of bitcoins off exchange for a number of reasons. Ill keep it simple for you and not go into all the reasons but try this one;

If I wanted to buy 10k BTC what do you think the price would go up to on exchange if I tried to that?

I'll be kind and give you another;

I dont really trust sending $2mm to an unregulated company how do I got about buying a large amount of BTC, yes right again off exchange.

The fact that you think people trust gox because they 'found' 200k BTC even though they lost 850k plus many millions of dollars is asinine.

Good luck trying to buy 10k btc off exchange, you tried to buy 1k of them like that? well than keep your fingers off my posts trying to make things easier for me, you don't need to do it, for me, it has always been easy, and don't feel like a finance markets proffessor.