[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[TheKoziTwo]

If Poloniex and Bter and Hitbtc can figure out how to detect XMR deposits and send XMR, then the groundwork has basically been done. There are a bunch of marketplaces that would be accepting XMR right now, such as Cryptsy, that aren't accepting XMR simply because it's not super-easy for them to figure it out.

But not publicly documented - and this what we want.
TheKoziTwo, as far as I remember, Poloniex got massive inspiration from your code at cryptonote.exchange.to for inclusion in Poloniex (and swaphole too). Could you prepare some documentation, that the community would happily polish?

I'll see what I can do. Perhaps a code example / working demo would be useful.

[1713308948]

1713308948

[David Latapie]

Lost password from my wallet. You can reset it or recover?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=721045.msg8148510#msg8148510

If Poloniex and Bter and Hitbtc can figure out how to detect XMR deposits and send XMR, then the groundwork has basically been done. There are a bunch of marketplaces that would be accepting XMR right now, such as Cryptsy, that aren't accepting XMR simply because it's not super-easy for them to figure it out.

But not publicly documented - and this what we want.
TheKoziTwo, as far as I remember, Poloniex got massive inspiration from your code at cryptonote.exchange.to for inclusion in Poloniex (and swaphole too). Could you prepare some documentation, that the community would happily polish?

I'll see what I can do. Perhaps a code example / working demo would be useful.

Thanks. It would.

[generalizethis]

it seems escrow/multisig is a good tool to bootstrap seller's reputation but is not really necessary afterwards when the seller is well established.
this is an interesting point of view - it would mean that openbazaar can use such seller bootstrapping with multisig/escrow using any crypto and than let buyers use monero simply out of convenience.

Exactly. If you look at Evolution's escrow system, the seller chooses what option to use: fe or escrow.

The buyer is faced with a very simple choice: if the fe is only offered, does the seller's reputation warrant the risk I'm taking of not getting my items (this has a lot to do with price and that you can still give a bad review and hurt the seller's reputation). If the seller has a good reputation and offers escrow, it's a no brainer. Someone might want to go onto Evolution and see how they do it; it's functioning and people like using it.

In simple terms it works like this:

A new seller with a low reputation needs to do one of two things to compete with established sellers:

1. Lower the price so much that buyers will take a risk by using fe.

2. Take escrow and give the buyer extra security until a good reputation can be established.

[jehst]

it seems escrow/multisig is a good tool to bootstrap seller's reputation but is not really necessary afterwards when the seller is well established.
this is an interesting point of view - it would mean that openbazaar can use such seller bootstrapping with multisig/escrow using any crypto and than let buyers use monero simply out of convenience.

Exactly. If you look at Evolution's escrow system, the seller chooses what option to use: fe or escrow.

The buyer is faced with a very simple choice: if the fe is only offered, does the seller's reputation warrant the risk I'm taking of not getting my items (this has a lot to do with price and that you can still give a bad review and hurt the seller's reputation). If the seller has a good reputation and offers escrow, it's a no brainer. Someone might want to go onto Evolution and see how they do it; it's functioning and people like using it.

In simple terms it works like this:

A new seller with a low reputation needs to do one of two things to compete with established sellers:

1. Lower the price so much that buyers will take a risk by using fe.

2. Take escrow and give the buyer extra security until a good reputation can be established.

FE is king. Just a simple measure of outcomes. Here are the two options:

1) Three-party multi-sig escrow where the escrow is kept in a free-floating cryptocurrency (e.g. BTC/XMR).
This is totally secure for the buyer, but the merchant takes a huge volatility risk. It's currently unpopular with bitcoin and will likely never become popular, hence my skepticism of OpenBazaar.

2) Centralized escrow + (FE).  This is totally unsecure for the buyer, as he loses control of his coins immediately, but it is totally secure for the seller. The seller offers a competitive discount to entice buyers, which the buyer likes. Buyers can minimize their risk by choosing a seller with an established, honest reputation. However, this does not prevent scams because a seller with a established reputation is sometimes just building trust so that he can steal an even bigger sum of money in the end. This is currently the most popular style on darknet markets with bitcoin.

To try to quantify it:

Option 1. Seller Satisfaction: 2, Buyer Satisfaction: 10
Option 2: Seller Satisfaction: 10 , Buyer Satisfaction: 5

Option 1 just absolutely sucks for sellers, so they won't do it unless they are doing it temporarily to build a reputation. Buyers are forced to take Option 2 or refuse to participate. Seller offers a nice discount to entice them. Buyers aren't happy but they can live with it. I'm just about finished writing a very long post about a third option that I believe is superior to Option 2, which I'll post in the main alt section shortly.

[generalizethis]

it seems escrow/multisig is a good tool to bootstrap seller's reputation but is not really necessary afterwards when the seller is well established.
this is an interesting point of view - it would mean that openbazaar can use such seller bootstrapping with multisig/escrow using any crypto and than let buyers use monero simply out of convenience.

Exactly. If you look at Evolution's escrow system, the seller chooses what option to use: fe or escrow.

The buyer is faced with a very simple choice: if the fe is only offered, does the seller's reputation warrant the risk I'm taking of not getting my items (this has a lot to do with price and that you can still give a bad review and hurt the seller's reputation). If the seller has a good reputation and offers escrow, it's a no brainer. Someone might want to go onto Evolution and see how they do it; it's functioning and people like using it.

In simple terms it works like this:

A new seller with a low reputation needs to do one of two things to compete with established sellers:

1. Lower the price so much that buyers will take a risk by using fe.

2. Take escrow and give the buyer extra security until a good reputation can be established.

FE is king. Just a simple measure of outcomes. Here are the two options:

1) Three-party multi-sig escrow where the escrow is kept in a free-floating cryptocurrency (e.g. BTC/XMR).
This is totally secure for the buyer, but the merchant takes a huge volatility risk. It's currently unpopular with bitcoin and will likely never become popular.

2) Centralized escrow + (FE).  This is totally unsecure for the buyer, as he loses control of his coins immediately, but it is totally secure for the seller. The seller offers a competitive discount to entice buyers, which the buyer likes. Buyers can minimize their risk by choosing a seller with an established, honest reputation. However, this does not prevent scams because a seller with a established reputation is sometimes just building trust so that he can steal an even bigger sum of money in the end. This is currently the most popular style on darknet markets with bitcoin.

To try to quantify it:

Option 1. Seller Satisfaction: 2, Buyer Satisfaction: 10
Option 2: Seller Satisfaction: 10 , Buyer Satisfaction: 5

Option 1 just absolutely sucks for sellers, so they won't do it unless they are doing it temporarily to build a reputation. Buyers are forced to take Option 2 or refuse to participate. Seller offers a nice discount to entice them. Buyers aren't happy but they can live with it. I'm just about finished writing a very long post about a third option that I believe is superior to Option 2, which I'll post in the main alt section shortly.

I knew you were pimping something.    Can you post a link here when it's done? 

[BoscoMurray]

I have access to my wallet, but did not note down the seed words (not sure if that's the correct term) when I created it. Is there a command to show me these seed words while I have my wallet open?

Thanks

[bitcoinrocks]

Since we're talking about cloning/forking OB, do you guys realize that in OB the items you're selling are stored on your node only and if your node is disconnected from the network then your items disappear from the marketplace?

http://forum.openbazaar.org/index.php?p=/discussion/105/need-a-permanent-node-to-set-up-a-store

Given the above, why would XMR, a coin concerned with privacy and anonymity, build anything on top of OB?  Am I missing something?

Not every bit of buying and selling needs to be anonymous (nor do I necessarily want people rifling through my finances just because I happen to transact with them non-anonymously), but if you do want to run a p2p marketplace anonymously, do it as a hidden service on Tor or i2p.

Perhaps someday there will be some tools/packages that make this easier to set up, or support for it built into the OB/FB code itself (as we plan to do with the Monero node and i2p). I wouldn't be surprised.

I don't understand this mentality within the context of XMR.  There are other marketplaces which are decentralized instead of p2p.  Why not use one of those?

[Febo]

I have access to my wallet, but did not note down the seed words (not sure if that's the correct term) when I created it. Is there a command to show me these seed words while I have my wallet open?

Thanks

I think you get them only at creation.

[jehst]

I knew you were pimping something.    Can you post a link here when it's done? 

Here it is:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=915035.msg10048719#msg10048719

I'm actually trying to be as coin-agnostic as possible in that thread because it's more about an idea than pimping any individual coin.

[pa]

I have access to my wallet, but did not note down the seed words (not sure if that's the correct term) when I created it. Is there a command to show me these seed words while I have my wallet open?

Thanks

in simplewallet, the command is "seed" (without quotation marks)

[BoscoMurray]

Great, ta very much

Edit: I get an error with this command. "The wallet is non-deterministic. Cannot display seed." Best to just create new wallet and send funds there? I'd like to have this seed words recovery option available to me if I need it at some stage.

[generalizethis]

I knew you were pimping something.   Can you post a link here when it's done?  

Here it is:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=915035.msg10048719#msg10048719

I'm actually trying to be as coin-agnostic as possible in that thread because it's more about an idea than pimping any individual coin.

To be fair, ideas are one of the most pimped things ever.

[aminorex]

To be fair, ideas are one of the most pimped things ever.

The imagery makes me reluctant to expose my ideas to anyone else, lest their purity be compromised.

[jehst]

To be fair, ideas are one of the most pimped things ever.

The imagery makes me reluctant to expose my ideas to anyone else, lest their purity be compromised.

You used the word "expose" on purpose, didn't you?

[aminorex]

To be fair, ideas are one of the most pimped things ever.

The imagery makes me reluctant to expose my ideas to anyone else, lest their purity be compromised.

You used the word "expose" on purpose, didn't you?

That, or else "ideas" is a metaphor.

[aerbax]

Great, ta very much

Edit: I get an error with this command. "The wallet is non-deterministic. Cannot display seed." Best to just create new wallet and send funds there? I'd like to have this seed words recovery option available to me if I need it at some stage.

Correct.  You likely created a wallet before the functionality was implemented.

Create a new wallet and send your coins there.

[perl]

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/issues/209

Juste for information .
Sorry for my english. But for me the problem is very important.

[dEBRUYNE]

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/issues/209

Juste for information .
Sorry for my english. But for me the problem is very important.

Fluffypony already answered to that

[smooth]

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/issues/209

Opened a new issue that I believe explains the problem more clearly.

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/issues/210

[iCEBREAKER]

In situations where people need to hold XMR for a significant period of time (e.g. a merchant waiting for his escrowed XMR to be released, or someone using XMR to go between government currencies when traveling), they will want to be able to hedge against losses measured in EUR or USD or CNY. If we want to support an external project, perhaps we should consider one that allows them to do this easily and fluidly.

So you suggest we make sure to have an easy hedging solution by the time FreeBazaar is finished (a finish-to-finish dependancy, as it is called in projec management)? Am I reading it right? If yes, I consider this requires diverting financing and energy to the search of such tool. Do you have any lead?

Privacy is only required for payments into and out of the market.  Escrowed funds don't need to be kept in XMR.  Using shapeshift, buyers' funds could be put into multisig'd BTC until transaction completion, then changed back into XMR for anon output to sellers.

Go KoziTwo go!  Your XMR send/receive gateway can simply be bolted on to OB and there you go...