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Question: Which curve is better for BitMonero?  (Voting closed: April 28, 2014, 12:37:00 PM)
20 (no change) - 42 (63.6%)
21 (50% emitted in 3 years) - 14 (21.2%)
22 (50% emitted in 6 years) - 5 (7.6%)
23 (50% emitted in 12 years) - 2 (3%)
24 (50% emitted in 24 years) - 3 (4.5%)
Total Voters: 66

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Author Topic: [BMR] BitMonero emission curve change (proposal)  (Read 10386 times)
thankful_for_today
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April 26, 2014, 12:37:00 PM
Last edit: April 26, 2014, 01:00:25 PM by thankful_for_today
 #1

UPD: Please explain your opinion in comments Wink

Hello!

Here is another proposal about BitMonero change influenced by a group of miners. In case community will decide we need to change this we will do this. I'm ok with any of these curves in case miners agree to send excess coins to donations. The bigger change will be adopted the more excess coins needs to be sent.

Emission curve variants



Changing procedure

First of all we need to decide here what kind of curve is best and how many coins we agree to send to donations in case change will happen. This is the purpose of this voting post.

In case most of people here will choose not to change - we will stay with current curve.
In case most of people will choose to change - we will implement curve switch to the most wanted one.

A necessary condition to actually do a curve switch is to collect excess coins from miners (see below).

Curve switch will happen gradually during 1-2 weeks and will be started as soon as 75% daemons will be updated. This is the place where miners can say "yes" or "no" to emission curve change.

Excess coins

In case of switch there will be a number "excess" of coins emitted that we have to send back to community: for donations, promotions and other activities that helps BitMonero to become better. Sending "excess" coins to community is voluntary: each miner decides himself how many coins he agrees to send. Table below provides average number of "excess" coins we have to collect. In case we fail to collect them - emission curve change will be unfair.

Here are rougth calculations of "excess" coins amount on height 20K (now we are on 12K):

Switch to curve 21: 172K coins
Switch to curve 22: 260K coins
Switch to curve 23: 324K coins

Please say in comments to this post how many coins do you (personally) agree to send back to community. This will help to calculate if we are able to do chain switch fairly.

I'm against of forced discount of already emitted coins because this destroys trust to development team. Voluntary donations is the only fair way to do this.

Comkort voting

Don't forget to vote for BitMonero on comkort exchange: https://comkort.com/vote Wink

Vote for BitMonero on Comkort exchange: https://comkort.com/vote
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April 26, 2014, 01:36:42 PM
Last edit: April 26, 2014, 01:51:53 PM by smooth
 #2

I'm against of forced discount of already emitted coins because this destroys trust to development team. Voluntary donations is the only fair way to do this.

I proposed the discount/exchange but I have revised my position and I'm now against it as well, because it is too confusing and some people feel like their coins are being taken away. Whatever other merits there might be, that's too high a price to pay.

Another solution is to temporarily reduce emissions until the new curve is reached. This can probably be done gradually over a period of a month or two. Maybe it isn't quite as "fair" (tough word to define) as everyone giving back their coins, but from the point of view of anyone mining after the new curve is reached, it is pretty much the same (no "extra" coins will have been given out before they joined). I am in favor of either this or the crowdfunding approach.

I'm in favor of the 21 curve. I suggest this be done by leaving the formula alone and changing the block target back to two minutes. The original premise for one minute was to help solo mining. Solo mining is already difficult and new miners are complaining that they often don't get anything, and the coin is only a week old! The increased orphans created by one minute blocks are not a worthwhile trade off.

Failing that I would adjust the formula to the 21 curve.

I will submit my vote to the poll as well as this comment.

I will donate half my coins if the switch is made. It is also conditional on merged mining not being implemented because in that case I will likely sell all my coins and focus my attention elsewhere. Right now that would be about 10k coins. That might be different later.
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April 26, 2014, 01:44:51 PM
 #3

I'm against of forced discount of already emitted coins because this destroys trust to development team. Voluntary donations is the only fair way to do this.

I'm in favor of the 21 curve. I suggest this be done by leaving the formula along and changing the block target back to two minutes. The original premise for one minute was to help solo mining. Solo mining is already difficult and new miners are complaining that they often don't get anything, and the coin is only a week old! The increased orphans created by one minute blocks are not a worthwhile trade off.


Probably the first purpose of collected "excess" coins would be pool development?

Vote for BitMonero on Comkort exchange: https://comkort.com/vote
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April 26, 2014, 01:49:00 PM
 #4

I'm against of forced discount of already emitted coins because this destroys trust to development team. Voluntary donations is the only fair way to do this.

I'm in favor of the 21 curve. I suggest this be done by leaving the formula along and changing the block target back to two minutes. The original premise for one minute was to help solo mining. Solo mining is already difficult and new miners are complaining that they often don't get anything, and the coin is only a week old! The increased orphans created by one minute blocks are not a worthwhile trade off.


Probably the first purpose of collected "excess" coins would be pool development?

GUI wallet or pool would be the first priority I would say, but we should probably have some kind of voting process for bounties?
thankful_for_today
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April 26, 2014, 02:39:46 PM
 #5

I'm against of forced discount of already emitted coins because this destroys trust to development team. Voluntary donations is the only fair way to do this.

I'm in favor of the 21 curve. I suggest this be done by leaving the formula along and changing the block target back to two minutes. The original premise for one minute was to help solo mining. Solo mining is already difficult and new miners are complaining that they often don't get anything, and the coin is only a week old! The increased orphans created by one minute blocks are not a worthwhile trade off.


Probably the first purpose of collected "excess" coins would be pool development?

GUI wallet or pool would be the first priority I would say, but we should probably have some kind of voting process for bounties?

I agree on voting on bounties.

Vote for BitMonero on Comkort exchange: https://comkort.com/vote
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tacotime
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April 26, 2014, 04:40:17 PM
 #6

I would prefer the switch to 21, but I'm not sure miners will really give their coins up.  So I think in the real world we will be stuck with 21.

In any case, we should start pooling large bounties in order to get a pool up and a GUI.

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
BitRock
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April 26, 2014, 05:34:26 PM
 #7

Are  the BitMoneros supposed to be send back to community if those BitMoneros were bought from miner?
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April 26, 2014, 05:51:45 PM
 #8

Are  the BitMoneros supposed to be send back to community if those BitMoneros were bought from miner?


Good question!

+1 for 21K curve.
I doubt we need more than this height

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April 26, 2014, 09:12:40 PM
 #9

Are  the BitMoneros supposed to be send back to community if those BitMoneros were bought from miner?

Yes they are. It doesn't matter where you got them, we are still asking everyone to donate half their coins, and if that is done, the total number of coins being created will also be cut in half.

Please understand that you are not losing value by doing this. You are reducing the number of your coins, but the total number of everyone's coins and newly mined coins is also being correspondingly reduced, so each coin should be worth about twice as much.

If double the intended number of coins weren't being given out, you wouldn't have been able to buy those coins at that price. They would have been more expensive (roughly twice as expensive, most likely).

There is an obviously relationship between the number of coins being given out and their price. Look at coins that pay out a million coins per block, their coins are obviously worth much less than similar coins that pay out 10 or 20 coins per block. it's all relative.
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April 26, 2014, 09:19:02 PM
 #10

I would prefer the switch to 21, but I'm not sure miners will really give their coins up.  So I think in the real world we will be stuck with 21.

Did you mean stuck with 20 (the current)

I don't believe it is the case. My other proposed alternative is switch to 21, but then temporarily reduce the output for a transition period until the total coins agrees with 21, then use 21 going forward from that point.

If some people donate to the community (crowdfunding), the transition period can be shortened.

I've already pledged ~5% of the total coins in circulation.

Quote
In any case, we should start pooling large bounties in order to get a pool up and a GUI.

How are large bounties ever going to happen if people don't donate?
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April 26, 2014, 09:24:06 PM
 #11

I voted 22 so the inflation is not to big in the beginning, but remain steady for a long time.

But I don't think donation will work,
I'm more for a smooth change in the reward formula over 1 month.
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April 26, 2014, 10:25:53 PM
 #12

would it be better to leave this coin alone. It seems it is now Fractured.
If coin continues then so be it. Let miners cont to mine coin as is.
Honey penny for example is building on BCN. There are a a lot of individual that are very Knowledgeable. could this coin be developed to include private messaging, Proof of work, and proof of stake. Perhaps, other mechanism Duration of mining. This to encourage mining in The distant future.add colored coins ability. Just a thought. I realize this maybe stupid.
I don't see necessity to fund project. Developers wold be among Earliest adopters. If it is a great Idea than it will Succeed. If you build it the Miners will Come. And so the more users the greater the Demand-the higher the price of original coins.. Compared to those mining from the very first hour, Knowledge coupled with low difficulty they probably have more coins than I do I started Mining monero 5 days After launch and so far  have accumulated 260 coins. i am speculating but likely tft has more coins than i do and well deserved
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April 27, 2014, 01:35:48 AM
 #13

It looks like honeypenny is doing 21. Given that this coin is clearly superior to honeypenny on every other basis (first mover advantage, no block rewards going to the developer as free money, far better name, etc.) we should really just do 21 and remove a differentiator has the potential to hurt us. If the emissions curve matters, then honeypenny could outcompete this coin on that basis, and if it doesn't matter there is  no harm in having the same curve.

With the same emissions curve we almost certainly outcompete honeypenny. They have one or two interesting features but we can easily adopt those if they turn out to be useful, since it is open source.

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April 27, 2014, 02:50:52 AM
 #14

It looks like honeypenny is doing 21. Given that this coin is clearly superior to honeypenny on every other basis (first mover advantage, no block rewards going to the developer as free money, far better name, etc.) we should really just do 21 and remove a differentiator has the potential to hurt us. If the emissions curve matters, then honeypenny could outcompete this coin on that basis, and if it doesn't matter there is  no harm in having the same curve.

With the same emissions curve we almost certainly outcompete honeypenny. They have one or two interesting features but we can easily adopt those if they turn out to be useful, since it is open source.

If you and other major holders like noodledoodle etc come forward willing to donate half of your supplies to pools, services, etc, I will be willing to do so as well.

There are more than 200k coins out there now and I doubt we can even recover 50k, but at least it'll show that the core people involved are willing to give up their share for the future of the chain.  Then, we can hardfork to 2 minute blocks and diminish any possible allegation of premine.

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April 27, 2014, 03:42:59 AM
Last edit: April 27, 2014, 04:15:23 AM by smooth
 #15

It looks like honeypenny is doing 21. Given that this coin is clearly superior to honeypenny on every other basis (first mover advantage, no block rewards going to the developer as free money, far better name, etc.) we should really just do 21 and remove a differentiator has the potential to hurt us. If the emissions curve matters, then honeypenny could outcompete this coin on that basis, and if it doesn't matter there is  no harm in having the same curve.

With the same emissions curve we almost certainly outcompete honeypenny. They have one or two interesting features but we can easily adopt those if they turn out to be useful, since it is open source.

If you and other major holders like noodledoodle etc come forward willing to donate half of your supplies to pools, services, etc, I will be willing to do so as well.

There are more than 200k coins out there now and I doubt we can even recover 50k, but at least it'll show that the core people involved are willing to give up their share for the future of the chain.  Then, we can hardfork to 2 minute blocks and diminish any possible allegation of premine.

I already pledged 10k which is half of my coins. Actually I pledged a bit over half because I figured by the time this conversation even got going I would have more.

I also think just slowing down the rewards a bit until the total drops down to the new curve is fine. Say starting at block 20k, we reduce the block reward by 1/N of difference between the actual curve and the eventual target curve where B is the block number and N is 10000-B. This provides a "sunrise" period of approximately two months during which the block reward is lower by about 2 coins until the new curve is reached. The size of the reduction can be greatly reduced if we got solid participation in the crowdfunding.

This is assuming the block time is retained at 60 seconds. I would increase it to 120 seconds, in which case the numbers needs to be adjusted, but that is a separate question.

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April 27, 2014, 04:56:40 AM
 #16

@thankful_for_today - what is the name of the coin? is it bitmonero or is it monero? I updated The CPU Coin List to what I thought was the new name. Was I wrong?
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April 27, 2014, 05:00:04 AM
 #17

@thankful_for_today - what is the name of the coin? is it bitmonero or is it monero? I updated The CPU Coin List to what I thought was the new name. Was I wrong?

Community named it monero, TFT named it bitmonero.  Most people prefer monero.

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April 27, 2014, 05:02:46 AM
 #18

@thankful_for_today - what is the name of the coin? is it bitmonero or is it monero? I updated The CPU Coin List to what I thought was the new name. Was I wrong?

Community named it monero, TFT named it bitmonero.  Most people prefer monero.

I want to hear TFT's answer on the name.

I already know what you and smooth say.
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April 27, 2014, 05:56:38 AM
 #19

What's the point to change the height?

The market is mature enough and no need to change anything.

Voted for ''no change'' !!!
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April 27, 2014, 06:51:26 AM
 #20

Voted for the #20 curve.

I know it's selfish and all but I think that early adopters should earn more since they are taking the huge risk.

When adopting coin early you can't know for sure if you're going to win or lose. You're dedicating your hashpower to something that is not yet valued - you can be screwed big time.

So, the way I see it - curve should be left untouched.

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