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Author Topic: Venezuela and the devaluation of the bolivar  (Read 5102 times)
wachtwoord
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February 26, 2012, 06:55:55 PM
 #21

Very simple reason: there is no reason for this to be forced by external factors.


There has to be something that pushes you to spend piled money. ... uhm why? For trivial economical reasons.


This statement is incorrect. People spend money when they wish to receive something in return (services or goods). if they do not, they hold on to the cash. This was the first idea of cash as well, something to preserve wealth in a liquid fashion. A farmer wishes to exchange his crops for other goods, but goods that hve gone bad cannot be traded so he exchanges them for precious metals to spent on some not yet determined point in time. 

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labestiol
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February 26, 2012, 06:58:13 PM
 #22

There has to be something that pushes you to spend piled money. ... uhm why? For trivial economical reasons.

Before i answer, can you tell me what are these trivial economical reasons ?

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February 26, 2012, 07:02:33 PM
 #23

The factors are intrinsic not external. Plus inflation does not force you to spend your money. You can easily keep it. Oh it looses its value? Value compared to what? Fiat money carries no value in itself. Thus very simple reasons can simply be false although heavily and frequently ventilated.

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February 26, 2012, 07:05:06 PM
 #24

Before i answer, can you tell me what are these trivial economical reasons ?
yes I can, ... you read the troll story didn´t you?  Grin

*scnr*

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labestiol
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February 26, 2012, 08:28:00 PM
 #25

Then you'll understand i won't answer, for trivial reasons  Wink

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February 27, 2012, 03:16:43 PM
 #26

The point is: Being free when to spend contradicts the idea of spending money fast. It is about speed, so being slow in spending is punished.
Your assumption "be free to choose when" is simply wrong in my eyes. Simply wrong in the sense that this simplification is wrong.
There has to be something that pushes you to spend piled money. ... uhm why? For trivial economical reasons.

I don't agree. Saving (spending later rather than sooner) has a function (of course with the current money-printing going on, saving seems to be a pretty stupid idea). The function of saving (note that saving results in investment, because the bank you save with will loan the money to the player that are investing) is to "tell" the economy: "it's all good so far, I have enough products to conduct my daily life, please put the money into making production more efficient (future production) or invent new good/services for me to consume.".

Where do you get this idea of "spending money fast"?

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Kettenmonster
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February 27, 2012, 07:43:34 PM
 #27

Where do you get this idea of "spending money fast"?
It was him in first place: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Gesell

Despite of favouring fiat money or not, it carries no intrinsic value. Thus being unreliable it has to prove its worth as soon as possible.
It is of no importance for fiat money who is saving that stuff. As long as its not hanging around in your pockets.
Did you ever wonder why banks perfer credit cards over cash? Here you are.


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99Percent
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February 27, 2012, 09:19:24 PM
 #28

It really depends on the inflation rate and whether you are getting good interest vs this inflation rate when saving money.

That it is fiat currency you are saving is not very important if its "fiatness" is worthy (ie lots of people trust it).

It can be dumb and short sighted to spend all money you earn immediately just because you think it might not be worth any tomorrow..
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February 27, 2012, 09:22:17 PM
 #29

It really depends on the inflation rate and whether you are getting good interest ...
You are still talking about Bolivar aren´t you?

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99Percent
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February 27, 2012, 09:36:05 PM
 #30

It really depends on the inflation rate and whether you are getting good interest ...
You are still talking about Bolivar aren´t you?
No, I am talking of currency in general. The bolivar is not very strong fiat wise obviously.
minero1
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February 28, 2012, 02:57:00 AM
 #31

to minero1 :
 - how does investing in precious metals work in Venezuela ? caps, taxation ?
 - was trying to understand the black market value of bolivars. Basically there are people willing to give away bolivars to get usd. Question is why ? Is there some products available only in USD ? or is it mainly for savings ? (abroad ?)

I am surprised hashing hardware would be expensive in Venezuela. Usually populist governments allows for free import of computer hardware because it is believed it helps education, business, blah blah.

You mean like saving in gold/silver? no caps, no legislation. But the VAT applies to it like it does to everything else.

Black market it is thriving because the oportunist merchants have an excuse to sell their goods at twice the price just by stating they DON'T buy imports at the official rate even when they do enjoy it making prices high enough for anyone to consider importing themselves and saving a buck, yes the black market rate is twice as high the official rate. And i think that answers why hardware is so expensive.

If i was to fly in with mining equipment what's the likelyhood of getting siezed/taxed/hassle? Also, what's the state of internet censorship over there? What's the penalty forblack market moneychanging? It's interesting to know. I also wonder what the moneychangers do with all thier bolivars once they have them.

100% likely to being taxed when nationalizing imports. 0% seized, BIG HASSLE. Maybe some penalties for excess power consumption if you are going big, i'm sure i'm gonna.

internet censorship?? haha that's only a US and China thing. Here, i don't think they even monitor the internet. But like in any other country (i assume) bitcoin is a grey area, not exactly legal but not ilegal either, if you get caught exchanging bolivars outside of the official channels you'll get fined by twice the amount you are exchanging/carrying, this is the most hypocritical law ever because the government is known to issue bonds and sell them at black market rates.

I prefer to not hold currency at all nor bolivars or dollars, i feel a lot better when it is invested
labestiol
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February 28, 2012, 02:19:31 PM
 #32

to minero1 :
 - how does investing in precious metals work in Venezuela ? caps, taxation ?
 - was trying to understand the black market value of bolivars. Basically there are people willing to give away bolivars to get usd. Question is why ? Is there some products available only in USD ? or is it mainly for savings ? (abroad ?)

I am surprised hashing hardware would be expensive in Venezuela. Usually populist governments allows for free import of computer hardware because it is believed it helps education, business, blah blah.

You mean like saving in gold/silver? no caps, no legislation. But the VAT applies to it like it does to everything else.

In Europe there's no VAT on "investment gold", meaning coins, bars.
But there's VAT on silver and other metals

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minero1
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March 01, 2012, 03:23:14 AM
 #33

so, frankendoodle, nice english for a Venezuelan...

i encourage you to check this list http://www.cadivi.gob.ve/empresasdivisas.html, i found some very interesting surprises there, for me mostly some local shops from Coro-Punto Fijo (where i'm from) that i'm sure they are selling at non-official rates but have cadivi approvals on the tens of millions USD  Shocked

i'll keep increasing my mining op as much as i can but with the hardware prices and shipping costs its kinda steep but i've converted some friends to bitcoin and they are willing to fund my efforts, it's actually a lot easier when you show them your rigs, they all go like WOW! what is that? i show 'em the numbers, the heat output, the power consumption and the profit of course and BAM! they're sold
fabrizziop
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March 12, 2012, 09:50:03 PM
 #34

Venezuelan here, to both of you, please contact me Smiley
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