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Author Topic: | Nxt | Blockchain Platform | Proof of Stake | Official  (Read 938127 times)
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barabbas
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July 17, 2017, 07:36:25 PM
 #9021

My understanding of "child chains", in this case, is that they are  private blockchains supported by the main. Except for IGNIS that will be public or semi-public, therefore yet another token.

A good source to read is the good ol' NXT 2.0 overview.

Child chains are, by default, public. They are not a real "blockchain" but simply a transaction type of the main chain that can be pruned after 1440 blocks and then can be archived separately. New child chains can be "backed" by a business in the form of an IOU, like NXT assets/"monetary system" currencies.

As far as I understand the roadmap, the creation of child chains is only restricted in the first period (up to early 2018) and then an automated process will be delivered where everyone could build private or public child-chains, in the same way today a "monetary system" currency is launched - only that probably the fee will be higher.

For me, however, the main feature of Ardor is the child chain pruning mechanism. It's not that it cannot be replicated by other platforms, but it's the first of its kind available now. For every full node operator I imagine it's a great relieve only having to process and store 1/35 of the data normally needed when syncing the first time.

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My main point though remains that regardless how you want to call the traffic that the main blockchain will support, even at a minimal level of success, would be a quantum leap compared with current traffic and that since it cannot be stress tested we are left with just pretensions as to security, speed and capacity.

I don't see that much differences with respect to the NXT asset exchange that in 2014/15 had decent traffic. And every platform has a "first time". It's a chicken and egg problem, but the egg has been "created" successfully in other platforms like Ethereum - why should Ardor not be able to do that? The most obvious strategy would be to gradually increase the size/importance of the organizations that form part of the target public of the platform.

Why you ask? It is very very simple: The network of Ardor will be supported by a comparatively minimal amount of nodes. And let me emphasize MINIMAL. The PoW used by BTC has proven ridiculously low and absurdly expensy for practically any use case in the real world. The much improved PoW protocol of Ethereum has proven quite capable -but not capable enough- for high demand of transactions. But it isn't a stretch to figure out that as soon as the PoW/PoS hybrid is used, the capabilities of Ethereum will improve significantly. With the full implimentation of PoS, those capabilities will increase enormously given the amount of nodes -millions of them- that will be created. Now Ardor, why would anyone create a node (and by "anyone" I mean people outside of the "religious sect" of Ardor investors), you get my point?

As for your understanding regarding childchains, I see it differently --based on statements by the team. And logic, basic logic. Jelurida (the next team), is in it for the money. "It" being the busines of selling software and services. Software such as the child chains. I repeat: This is by their own statements. Ardor is just the all important backbone that will carry those childchains. Very important. But their money will be made in those child chains and associates services. PRIVATE ones. If someone creates a child chain just like you can create your own token in Ethereum, there's no benefit in it for Jelurida, right? You just pay the gas -the goes to the node holders and bundlers- and that's it. That doesn't jell even remotely with the business model that -I repeat- they admitted to when they created Jelurida. In specific: Jelurida ONLY makes money when they sell PRIVATE childchains (and associated services), not when someone creates their own child chain, EXACTLY the same way it works right now when you create any token in the Exchange or the "Monetary System", whatever you want to call it. That's precisely why the greedy bastards created Jelurida, ok? So please, lets stick to what we know -by their own admission- and stay away from assumptions that have nothing to do with reality, shall we?
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martismartis
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July 17, 2017, 07:42:46 PM
 #9022

Ignis ICO details are just announced: https://www.jelurida.com/ico
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July 17, 2017, 07:45:35 PM
 #9023

Barabbas, could you give some link about statements you talk? "As for your understanding regarding childchains, I see it differently --based on statements by the team. And logic, basic logic. Jelurida (the next team), is in it for the money. "It" being the busines of selling software and services. Software such as the child chains. I repeat: This is by their own statements."

Links or you are just fudder and troll. Period.
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July 17, 2017, 07:50:00 PM
 #9024

Well, Barabbas, here is some info for you: https://www.jelurida.com/nxt-loadtest-results. And it's a fact.

Of the many things that can be extracted from that "test", I will just choose this one so we at least put to rest what the final goal here is:

Scaling the blockchain to 100 TPS required complex optimizations. These optimizations won’t be released under the GPLv2 license. They will be available only for commercial private blockchain projects or blockchains running under the JPL license.


Now that you and everyone should have it clear, beyond any doubt whatsoever, what the real targets are, we can go into more details of the test, if you like. How many nodes with 100 million NXT can be created? Just to start...

that speed is still ridiculously LOW for any financial transaction usage... but, most of all, refer to my point above. The answer is quite clear and simple for anyone. Like NONE, how about that -well, maybe one or two, since some of those wallets exceeding 100 million NXT are sure to be available, right Damelon?-.

This project is designed, ALL of it, for the SOLE PURPOSE of making money for Jelurida (the team). They need to keep ARDOR working the best they can and to get that they need to convince you that you should forge, otherways the netword disappears and so do the entire house of cards, but you are just a needed accessory for THEIR business to work. You stand to make NO MONEY (you making money through fees is directly AGAINST their interests -which is selling child chains that will operate cheaply-). Get the full picture now?

Anyway, this is just taking too much time. And, obviously it isn't directed to converts such as you or lurker, but to others that are capable of the most basic critical thinking and have no vested interest in gaining converts or become one.
barabbas
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July 17, 2017, 07:52:00 PM
 #9025

Barabbas, could you give some link about statements you talk? "As for your understanding regarding childchains, I see it differently --based on statements by the team. And logic, basic logic. Jelurida (the next team), is in it for the money. "It" being the busines of selling software and services. Software such as the child chains. I repeat: This is by their own statements."

Links or you are just fudder and troll. Period.

Read above post.

The statement in red has been made -different versions of it- in many, many occasions since the announcement of Jelurida.
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July 17, 2017, 08:00:10 PM
 #9026

Link about statements about child chains? Give a link or fuddster and troll confirmed.
barabbas
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July 17, 2017, 08:15:39 PM
 #9027

Link about statements about child chains? Give a link or fuddster and troll confirmed.


Since you insist: https://www.nxter.org/jelurida-qa-nxt-core-devs-mean-business/


This is all straight from the horse's mouth. One thing you cannot blame these greedy guys is of not being upfront about their goals.

Now as far as the win-win, it's pathetically obvious they are bullshitting, but for the rest they have been as straightforward as you can be as to what the goals and targets are. And who the beneficiaries are.
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July 17, 2017, 08:24:28 PM
 #9028

Ignis ICO details are just announced: https://www.jelurida.com/ico

I have run the numbers very quickly. This is just wild. I'm sure they thought this out a couple of weeks ago when the millions of dollars of "dumb money" were flowing into crypto and they actually believe this will work. Boy are they in for a surprise!  Well, the first part of the surprise is already here and it means that instead of the 50 million dollars valuation they gave to IGNIS it's basically, at current prices, half that. And that is still not just crazy but absurdly out-of-your-mind stuff. And they want for themselves (sorry, to "promote and develop") more than half of it and around $ 3 million straight to the bottom line of Jelurida. And I thought they were just greedy, this is batshit crazy greedy way before any description. And, simply put, total delusion, fortunately. Because it just isn't going to happen. Not in a 10% of it basis. All that money for what? Just another more-or-less-shitcoin with nothing to offer.

Hopefully this won't hit ARDR too hard, but I'll be positioning for a trade entry at significantly lower levels than current.
VanBreuk
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July 17, 2017, 08:33:06 PM
 #9029

Do not waste much time on this, martis.

Barabbas started with some points to bring up, and criticism and devil's advocates are always healthy and welcome, but considering the time he spends writing posts here, some of his recurring arguments, and his hellbent-on-a-personal-crusade attitude, sadly the best thing might be to just put him on Ignore list and do not feed his constant attempts of hijacking the discussion. If he cannot understand the multiple problems and dead ends the Nxt community found when trying to operate within a fully decentralized framework (based solely on donations) since the start, and if he cannot see why any attempt to find a niche in the current crypto ecosystem without securing funds for development, marketing et al is doomed and why, he is at best an idealist with lots of time to waste. But reading some of his claims, I doubt it. He crossed the line to fudster for me long ago. Motives? Who knows.
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July 17, 2017, 08:56:44 PM
 #9030

Link about statements about child chains? Give a link or fuddster and troll confirmed.


Since you insist: https://www.nxter.org/jelurida-qa-nxt-core-devs-mean-business/


This is all straight from the horse's mouth. One thing you cannot blame these greedy guys is of not being upfront about their goals.

Now as far as the win-win, it's pathetically obvious they are bullshitting, but for the rest they have been as straightforward as you can be as to what the goals and targets are. And who the beneficiaries are.

How is this related to child chains on Ardor? Do you know what is the difference between private blockhain and child chains on Ardor? Smiley Want to FUD and troll more? Keep on Smiley
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July 17, 2017, 09:00:02 PM
 #9031

Link about statements about child chains? Give a link or fuddster and troll confirmed.


Since you insist: https://www.nxter.org/jelurida-qa-nxt-core-devs-mean-business/


This is all straight from the horse's mouth. One thing you cannot blame these greedy guys is of not being upfront about their goals.

Now as far as the win-win, it's pathetically obvious they are bullshitting, but for the rest they have been as straightforward as you can be as to what the goals and targets are. And who the beneficiaries are.

How is this related to child chains on Ardor? Do you know what is the difference between private blockhain and child chains on Ardor? Smiley Want to FUD and troll more? Keep on Smiley

No, I don't know the difference. Do you?
martismartis
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July 17, 2017, 09:04:11 PM
 #9032

Barabbas, read public resources again and try to understand what you read. Or ask what you do not understand Smiley
martismartis
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July 17, 2017, 09:07:57 PM
 #9033

Do not waste much time on this, martis.

Barabbas started with some points to bring up, and criticism and devil's advocates are always healthy and welcome, but considering the time he spends writing posts here, some of his recurring arguments, and his hellbent-on-a-personal-crusade attitude, sadly the best thing might be to just put him on Ignore list and do not feed his constant attempts of hijacking the discussion. If he cannot understand the multiple problems and dead ends the Nxt community found when trying to operate within a fully decentralized framework (based solely on donations) since the start, and if he cannot see why any attempt to find a niche in the current crypto ecosystem without securing funds for development, marketing et al is doomed and why, he is at best an idealist with lots of time to waste. But reading some of his claims, I doubt it. He crossed the line to fudster for me long ago. Motives? Who knows.

Sure he is a fudster or uninformed completely. There come new people and his fud do not help for new people to understand Ardor design. That's why I react and stick to facts, which are public, not some imagination. But, yes, not far away and I'll put him on ignore Smiley
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July 17, 2017, 09:14:56 PM
 #9034

Barabbas, read public resources again and try to understand what you read. Or ask what you do not understand Smiley

Why don't you give me a quick illustration? It shouldn't be that complicated...

But regardless of the supposed differences (I see none whatsoever), the beef here is clear: The greed of "the team" looking to enrich themselves while the holders (forgers") receive crumbs for supporting the network that holds the house of cards. That's the main one.

The second one is CENTRALIZATION. Gone. For the most and most significant part.

The third one is SECURITY. Nothing has been tested at no point. Now or in the past (NXT was hacked, easily, remember?). Not that anyone would be really interested in it now, but if there are some significantly valuable private chains, they would be.

and the fourth one, is SPEED and CAPACITY under stress conditions.

The link I posted and especially the questions and answers, should serve you well as a quite clear guide on these matters, especially with regards to point one.

Oh, and if you want to really understand what's going on here, try to see it from the point of view of someone with some money to invest in crypto -as opposed to someone with 100k, or whatever. in NXT/ARDR in his wallet- Maybe then you will see the obvious: Why would I put it in this project whose "team" is in it only for themselves with limitless greed? Of course you won't.
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July 17, 2017, 09:42:41 PM
 #9035

NXT was not hacked, exchange was hacked. These are two different things. Again, let's stick to the facts.
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July 17, 2017, 09:55:03 PM
 #9036

NXT was not hacked, exchange was hacked. These are two different things. Again, let's stick to the facts.

Well, practically only NXT was hacked in the exchange. I seem to remember that it was also hacked outside of the exchange, on a separate occasion?

How about those differences between childchains and blockchains in ARDOR?

Lets stick to the facts indeed.
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July 17, 2017, 10:08:29 PM
 #9037

Practically exchange was hacked, not NXT. I do not remember Nxt was hacked, except some users, who used weak passwords. But this problem is with all crypto, if password is "password123" user will be hacked sooner or later.
As for child chains and blockchains, read https://www.jelurida.com/ardor-nxt-feature-comparison and https://www.jelurida.com/ardor-blockchain-platform-design again and ask what do you not understand.
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July 17, 2017, 10:29:54 PM
 #9038

Practically exchange was hacked, not NXT. I do not remember Nxt was hacked, except some users, who used weak passwords. But this problem is with all crypto, if password is "password123" user will be hacked sooner or later.
As for child chains and blockchains, read https://www.jelurida.com/ardor-nxt-feature-comparison and https://www.jelurida.com/ardor-blockchain-platform-design again and ask what do you not understand.

I have read those. I see the improvements and additional features in Ardor but not the supposed difference you mention between childchains and blockchains. Which are those. You sure can  summarize those differences in one or two sentences, can't you? Or copy-paste them, if I for some miracle, missed them in those links. Again: Not the differences nor features between Next and Ardor, but the differences between "blockchains" and "childchains".
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July 17, 2017, 10:45:06 PM
 #9039

Define "blockchains" in your matter. There will be one blockhain platform in Ardor, with main chain (which will only forge) and many child chains (which will have all or less features Nxt has now) design. You stated that all child chains, except Ignis will be private, not public and owners of these child chains will need to pay devs for them. Which is not true. Let's stick to your statement.
barabbas
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July 17, 2017, 10:51:31 PM
 #9040

Define "blockchains" in your matter. You stated that all child chains, except Ignis will be private, not public and owners of these child chains will need to pay devs for them. Which is not true. Let's stick to your statement.

I stick to that statement, of course. bitswift, for instance, will pay the devs and will be private, in which it will be manipulated any which way they want by bitswift, as it should be. As it will be. I cannot think of any private organization that would NOT have a private childchain. It is mandatory, number one, because of regulations in most instances and, number two, it is absolutely logical for reasons of confidentiality.

As for the definition of "blockchains", use "ledger" or "database" whichever you prefer. Obviously the term "decentralized" doesn't apply here.
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