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[martismartis]

Barabbas, read public resources again and try to understand what you read. Or ask what you do not understand

[1713244293]

1713244293

[martismartis]

Do not waste much time on this, martis.

Barabbas started with some points to bring up, and criticism and devil's advocates are always healthy and welcome, but considering the time he spends writing posts here, some of his recurring arguments, and his hellbent-on-a-personal-crusade attitude, sadly the best thing might be to just put him on Ignore list and do not feed his constant attempts of hijacking the discussion. If he cannot understand the multiple problems and dead ends the Nxt community found when trying to operate within a fully decentralized framework (based solely on donations) since the start, and if he cannot see why any attempt to find a niche in the current crypto ecosystem without securing funds for development, marketing et al is doomed and why, he is at best an idealist with lots of time to waste. But reading some of his claims, I doubt it. He crossed the line to fudster for me long ago. Motives? Who knows.

Sure he is a fudster or uninformed completely. There come new people and his fud do not help for new people to understand Ardor design. That's why I react and stick to facts, which are public, not some imagination. But, yes, not far away and I'll put him on ignore

[barabbas]

Barabbas, read public resources again and try to understand what you read. Or ask what you do not understand

Why don't you give me a quick illustration? It shouldn't be that complicated...

But regardless of the supposed differences (I see none whatsoever), the beef here is clear: The greed of "the team" looking to enrich themselves while the holders (forgers") receive crumbs for supporting the network that holds the house of cards. That's the main one.

The second one is CENTRALIZATION. Gone. For the most and most significant part.

The third one is SECURITY. Nothing has been tested at no point. Now or in the past (NXT was hacked, easily, remember?). Not that anyone would be really interested in it now, but if there are some significantly valuable private chains, they would be.

and the fourth one, is SPEED and CAPACITY under stress conditions.

The link I posted and especially the questions and answers, should serve you well as a quite clear guide on these matters, especially with regards to point one.

Oh, and if you want to really understand what's going on here, try to see it from the point of view of someone with some money to invest in crypto -as opposed to someone with 100k, or whatever. in NXT/ARDR in his wallet- Maybe then you will see the obvious: Why would I put it in this project whose "team" is in it only for themselves with limitless greed? Of course you won't.

[martismartis]

NXT was not hacked, exchange was hacked. These are two different things. Again, let's stick to the facts.

[barabbas]

NXT was not hacked, exchange was hacked. These are two different things. Again, let's stick to the facts.

Well, practically only NXT was hacked in the exchange. I seem to remember that it was also hacked outside of the exchange, on a separate occasion?

How about those differences between childchains and blockchains in ARDOR?

Lets stick to the facts indeed.

[martismartis]

Practically exchange was hacked, not NXT. I do not remember Nxt was hacked, except some users, who used weak passwords. But this problem is with all crypto, if password is "password123" user will be hacked sooner or later.
As for child chains and blockchains, read https://www.jelurida.com/ardor-nxt-feature-comparison and https://www.jelurida.com/ardor-blockchain-platform-design again and ask what do you not understand.

[barabbas]

Practically exchange was hacked, not NXT. I do not remember Nxt was hacked, except some users, who used weak passwords. But this problem is with all crypto, if password is "password123" user will be hacked sooner or later.
As for child chains and blockchains, read https://www.jelurida.com/ardor-nxt-feature-comparison and https://www.jelurida.com/ardor-blockchain-platform-design again and ask what do you not understand.

I have read those. I see the improvements and additional features in Ardor but not the supposed difference you mention between childchains and blockchains. Which are those. You sure can  summarize those differences in one or two sentences, can't you? Or copy-paste them, if I for some miracle, missed them in those links. Again: Not the differences nor features between Next and Ardor, but the differences between "blockchains" and "childchains".

[martismartis]

Define "blockchains" in your matter. There will be one blockhain platform in Ardor, with main chain (which will only forge) and many child chains (which will have all or less features Nxt has now) design. You stated that all child chains, except Ignis will be private, not public and owners of these child chains will need to pay devs for them. Which is not true. Let's stick to your statement.

[barabbas]

Define "blockchains" in your matter. You stated that all child chains, except Ignis will be private, not public and owners of these child chains will need to pay devs for them. Which is not true. Let's stick to your statement.

I stick to that statement, of course. bitswift, for instance, will pay the devs and will be private, in which it will be manipulated any which way they want by bitswift, as it should be. As it will be. I cannot think of any private organization that would NOT have a private childchain. It is mandatory, number one, because of regulations in most instances and, number two, it is absolutely logical for reasons of confidentiality.

As for the definition of "blockchains", use "ledger" or "database" whichever you prefer. Obviously the term "decentralized" doesn't apply here.

[RubenBC]

Don't miss the latest news from the NXT/Ardor platform (IGNIS, Bitswift, Adel, ebook and much more..)

https://www.nxter.org/nxt-news-july-2017-iii/

[barabbas]

You can accuse them of many things but you cannot rightfully claim they are not straightforward:


Riker, core developer, Jelurida, writes:

As an investor in the ICO you need to balance the following factors:

(1) Don’t buy IGNIS in the ICO – you get less well funded development team and community in the long run and less sell pressure on NXT in the short run

(2) Buy IGNIS in the ICO – you get better funded development team and community in the long run and more sell pressure on NXT in the short run

Since you are reading this, I assume you believe in the NXT development team and the NXT community, if so, go for (2), true, there will be a short term sell pressure while the raised funds are converted to NXT but this is a short term concern. In the long term, a better funded development team and community will be able to hire more developers, invest in marketing and give this wonderful product the attention is deserves.

Surely, when you buy IGNIS in the ICO you’ll get a much better rate than if you just hold your NXT. We’ll publish more information about the ICO terms and conditions as soon as we have it clear with all related entities.

If Jelurida is well funded after a successful ICO we will continue to maintain NXT and add to it every feature which we add to Ardor and does not require a parent/child architecture
If Jelurida is not well funded then we will focus most of our efforts on Ardor and put less focus on NXT.

To the point you need to see it to believe it.

Simply amazing.

The underlined is supposed to read "true, there will be a short term sell pressure while the raised funds are converted to FIAT", but other than that misstatement (I'm sure unintentional), Riker is quite bold and clear.
Now, pretending than dumping 500 million NXT in the market will create "short term sell pressure", is a going a bit above being optimistic (I would say it will provoke a sustained crash as they hold to get better prices rather than dumping it all in one try, but that's just me talking objectively, something seldom present among converts), but other than that, like I said, you can accuse them of many, many things, but not of being quite clear.

 

[d5000]

@barrabas: Let's see what happens. I think a gradual stress testing and expanding of the platform is possible, you think it is not - well, we'll see that in some months. From the view of the present day everything is speculation, a bearish stance like yours is totally legit. But take into account that Bitcoin began with ONE single node.

I've still not found sources about "private child chains" and I doubt it will be possible to create totally private chains (with not even read access for the general public) inside the Ardor platform. Afaik the private chains are the forks of Nxt/Ardor for businesses. Possibly, creating child chains could remain a paid Jelurida service for a longer time that I expected initially.

I will decide my final position on Ardor when this point becomes clearer - if control is too centralized and license terms too restrictive, then I'll not longer supporting it.

[barabbas]

@barrabas: Let's see what happens. I think a gradual stress testing and expanding of the platform is possible, you think it is not - well, we'll see that in some months. From the view of the present day everything is speculation, a bearish stance like yours is totally legit. But take into account that Bitcoin began with ONE single node.

I've still not found sources about "private child chains" and I doubt it will be possible to create totally private chains (with not even read access for the general public) inside the Ardor platform. Afaik the private chains are the forks of Nxt/Ardor for businesses. Possibly, creating child chains could remain a paid Jelurida service for a longer time that I expected initially.

I will decide my final position on Ardor when this point becomes clearer - if control is too centralized and license terms too restrictive, then I'll not longer supporting it.

Well, if you still don't have it quite clear, you will, eventually. I just hope you don't get burned too bad.

To me it is very clear, as stated by Riker above and many times before -not as boldly- by other members of the team, they want YOUR money. By the millions of dollars. Many millions. Many, many more than the 15 Ethereum got (15). And there's no limit to their greed. No limits to their profits. No control whatsoever over their investments. This small "team" of people will decide how much they pay themselves, how much they allows themselves to spend in "promotion and representation", how many people they hire and for how much and how much of it all (and other sources, of course) goes straight to their pockets through Jelurida, their private club, so to speak.
And, for supporting the network, you get the crumbs of fees that they need to be very low to be able to sell and make money. That is all you get... oh and the "benefits" of all that promotion through first class travel around the world by members of the team "working".

No doubt it's a win-win, right? As in "I win, you win, he wins, we win, you... well, we tried".

[martismartis]

@barrabas: Let's see what happens. I think a gradual stress testing and expanding of the platform is possible, you think it is not - well, we'll see that in some months. From the view of the present day everything is speculation, a bearish stance like yours is totally legit. But take into account that Bitcoin began with ONE single node.

I've still not found sources about "private child chains" and I doubt it will be possible to create totally private chains (with not even read access for the general public) inside the Ardor platform. Afaik the private chains are the forks of Nxt/Ardor for businesses. Possibly, creating child chains could remain a paid Jelurida service for a longer time that I expected initially.

I will decide my final position on Ardor when this point becomes clearer - if control is too centralized and license terms too restrictive, then I'll not longer supporting it.

Chain can be "private" only if it tokens are not in free market, I mean you cannot use chain, if you don't own its tokens. But technically it will be public in Ardor platform, also bundlers of this chain has to pay ARDR in odrer chain transactions to be included in the main chain.

And yes, it was said many times publicly by devs, that at the beginning, creating child chains will be manual, by devs and it will be paid service. Ability to create child chain without devs is planned for late 2018 or 2019. Of course there will be a fee for this, but this fee will go to ARDR forgers.

And here is a proposal of new JPL license by Jelurida: https://www.jelurida.com/jelurida-public-license

EDIT: P.S. but this discussion must go to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1518497.0, as it is Ardor related

[oleksii777]

It is a pity that this happened. We hope for the best!
----

NXT was not hacked, exchange was hacked. These are two different things. Again, let's stick to the facts.

[lurker10]

FYI, newcomers!
Did you know you can mine NXT (and buy Ardor with it on the Nxt Asset Exchange!) in the Lucky node project?
Computational and bandwidth requirements are very low - some users run it on a Raspberry Pi.
Run the node 24/7 or as often as you can while you work or play.
Join in with the over 100 nodes that are already in the project.

[GigaBit]

Barabbas - I don't understand why you are even here, I mean... all you do is complain about greedy developers but don;t seem to understand the corporate world.
So you're just a loser looking to cause trouble, it's all you are, a mouthy loser troll without a life.
Cryptos are financial markets, you expect no greed?  Banks are greedy, you likely hold money in one; makes you a hypocrite.
Why don't you go flow your anger elsewhere, all you do here is cause people to buy more to shut you the fuck up; you're not contributing to anything.
Sounds to me like you're just a coward taking hits at people looking to make money and earning a living.
Get out of people's lives, you'll be a lot happier and a lot less bitter.

If you don't like NXT, so be it, just fuck off, no one cares what you have to say; you're just freaking out over nothing at this point.

Next thing is, true capitalists don't care what you have to say, we only care about making money; if we lose it, so be it, it's part of the game.

I am already up over 12 times my investment in NXT, do you think I give a flying fuck what you have to say, at all?

No, you're a fucking loser and I don't listen to losers; winners wouldn't be here whining, they're out making money.

If you are, wtf do you care what people in here do with THEIR money??

Your words means absolutely nothing, less than nothing.  

Now with Polo troll box down, every loser and wanker that was there, needs a new hobby but since they ain't good at anything else; like protesters.... bottom of the barrel it is!!

[barabbas]

Barabbas - I don't understand why you are even here, I mean... all you do is complain about greedy developers but don;t seem to understand the corporate world.
So you're just a loser looking to cause trouble, it's all you are, a mouthy loser troll without a life.
Cryptos are financial markets, you expect no greed?  Banks are greedy, you likely hold money in one; makes you a hypocrite.
Why don't you go flow your anger elsewhere, all you do here is cause people to buy more to shut you the fuck up; you're not contributing to anything.
Sounds to me like you're just a coward taking hits at people looking to make money and earning a living.
Get out of people's lives, you'll be a lot happier and a lot less bitter.

If you don't like NXT, so be it, just fuck off, no one cares what you have to say; you're just freaking out over nothing at this point.

Next thing is, true capitalists don't care what you have to say, we only care about making money; if we lose it, so be it, it's part of the game.

I am already up over 12 times my investment in NXT, do you think I give a flying fuck what you have to say, at all?

No, you're a fucking loser and I don't listen to losers; winners wouldn't be here whining, they're out making money.

If you are, wtf do you care what people in here do with THEIR money??

Your words means absolutely nothing, less than nothing.  

Now with Polo troll box down, every loser and wanker that was there, needs a new hobby but since they ain't good at anything else; like protesters.... bottom of the barrel it is!!

Obviously I don't post for "winners" like you. You deserve everything you get. And encourage you to just hit that great button on the left and ignore my posts altogether.

So relieved people like you don't care about my postings. For a moment there I thought you might...

[d5000]

@barrabas: Don't worry, I've so far only invested less than 1 USD in the whole NXT/ARDOR complex. So I won't get burned

Chain can be "private" only if it tokens are not in free market, I mean you cannot use chain, if you don't own its tokens. But technically it will be public in Ardor platform, also bundlers of this chain has to pay ARDR in odrer chain transactions to be included in the main chain.

Ah, now I understand. Thanks for clarification. What I doubted were "private" chains in the sense of "undetectable" or "encrypted", that only can be "seen" (=read) by the members of the organization/consortium - that should not be possible with the current Ardor concept (if they didn't add some kind of private childchainblock transaction ...).

And yes, it was said many times publicly by devs, that at the beginning, creating child chains will be manual, by devs and it will be paid service. Ability to create child chain without devs is planned for late 2018 or 2019. Of course there will be a fee for this, but this fee will go to ARDR forgers.

Yes, but I had in mind that "user child chain creation" was scheduled for early 2018. Now it's in the "research project" category. That's a change I don't like particularly because it smells a bit like vapourware.

And here is a proposal of new JPL license by Jelurida: https://www.jelurida.com/jelurida-public-license

Yes. I hate this license and it seems they have ignored all my arguments against it and in favour to use a standard open source license like the GPL. It is PROPRIETARY CRAP and will NEVER become the standard in cryptocurrencies. And dumb greedy short-sighted "investors" (=pump-and-dumpers) even are applauding this CRAP.

Sorry, I really seldom be that clear, but this license deserves all the insults.

[GigaBit]

Barabbas - I don't understand why you are even here, I mean... all you do is complain about greedy developers but don;t seem to understand the corporate world.
So you're just a loser looking to cause trouble, it's all you are, a mouthy loser troll without a life.
Cryptos are financial markets, you expect no greed?  Banks are greedy, you likely hold money in one; makes you a hypocrite.
Why don't you go flow your anger elsewhere, all you do here is cause people to buy more to shut you the fuck up; you're not contributing to anything.
Sounds to me like you're just a coward taking hits at people looking to make money and earning a living.
Get out of people's lives, you'll be a lot happier and a lot less bitter.

If you don't like NXT, so be it, just fuck off, no one cares what you have to say; you're just freaking out over nothing at this point.

Next thing is, true capitalists don't care what you have to say, we only care about making money; if we lose it, so be it, it's part of the game.

I am already up over 12 times my investment in NXT, do you think I give a flying fuck what you have to say, at all?

No, you're a fucking loser and I don't listen to losers; winners wouldn't be here whining, they're out making money.

If you are, wtf do you care what people in here do with THEIR money??

Your words means absolutely nothing, less than nothing.  

Now with Polo troll box down, every loser and wanker that was there, needs a new hobby but since they ain't good at anything else; like protesters.... bottom of the barrel it is!!

Obviously I don't post for "winners" like you. You deserve everything you get. And encourage you to just hit that great button on the left and ignore my posts altogether.

So relieved people like you don't care about my postings. For a moment there I thought you might...

You just did, fucking idiot!!   

Why would I ignore you?  You wish, pal, you amuse me just enough to say anything about it.
I deserve everything I get?  Totally agree, dude!!!  I ask for it too, wholeheartedly!!   
... and boy, have I been getting what I deserve this year, I want more of what I deserve!!! XD
I also don't expect NXT to make me a fortune but I do like the technology.

Like many other currencies has its pros and cons but I share the vision of the developers.
Everyone has different goals, different purposes, why must you crap on others who do?
Easy to procrastinate only need to open your mouth, hard work is required to create.
All you create here is FUD.... and annoying.  If others sell their investments, so be it, it's a fact of investing.

You get what you deserve too, it's not just a one way street... maybe in your liberal utopia you can but in real world, you can't.

I ask for it, you want others to get it... I wonder where karma will strike first.