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Author Topic: The risk  (Read 2801 times)
beep
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January 15, 2012, 08:58:24 AM
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I came to this site expecting to learn how to buy bitcoins to invest in them, as a bit of a gamble.  Maybe see if it's worth thinking about getting into mining at some point in the future.

In reality, the more I read the more of a risky business it seems.

The risk of value rising and falling is something I can accept - it's probably the reason I'm interested (that and general curiosity about something new).

The danger seems to be however in the possibility of never being able to exchange your money back from bitcoins to a real world currency (you know - one that you can buy food and pay bills with).  Bitcoins are worth nothing if they cannot be exchanged or used to buy stuff.  You can't really buy stuff and all the major exchanges seem to have had problems with banks, stopping people from getting their money back.

Paxum seems to be a possible solution to that, but this seems to be a company founded in the porn industry by someone who sold penis enlargement pills, with allegations of being connected to scams (epassporte) all over the internet.  Their account verification process and the need to upload ID seem questionable.  The fact this is the sole epayment company used by most of the bitcoin exchanges doesn't instill an air of legitimacy and confidence.

Why are their problems with Banks?  Why not use CCBIll or paypal?

If Bitcoin is to take off it needs to work to feel a bit more mainstream imo.
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January 15, 2012, 09:33:35 AM
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I came to this site expecting to learn how to buy bitcoins to invest in them, as a bit of a gamble.  Maybe see if it's worth thinking about getting into mining at some point in the future.

In reality, the more I read the more of a risky business it seems.

The risk of value rising and falling is something I can accept - it's probably the reason I'm interested (that and general curiosity about something new).

The danger seems to be however in the possibility of never being able to exchange your money back from bitcoins to a real world currency (you know - one that you can buy food and pay bills with).  Bitcoins are worth nothing if they cannot be exchanged or used to buy stuff.  You can't really buy stuff and all the major exchanges seem to have had problems with banks, stopping people from getting their money back.

Paxum seems to be a possible solution to that, but this seems to be a company founded in the porn industry by someone who sold penis enlargement pills, with allegations of being connected to scams (epassporte) all over the internet.  Their account verification process and the need to upload ID seem questionable.  The fact this is the sole epayment company used by most of the bitcoin exchanges doesn't instill an air of legitimacy and confidence.

Why are their problems with Banks?  Why not use CCBIll or paypal?

If Bitcoin is to take off it needs to work to feel a bit more mainstream imo.

Bitcoin is not your stamp collection. There are several exchanges. Granted, MtGox is 80% of it, but should MtGox play funny business, others are happy to take the baton. Up to now, MtGox's service was excellent. Look at http://mtgoxlive.com/orders to get an idea about volume and market depth.

Bitcoin is a currency you can buy food with. OK, not with the grocer araund the corner, but you can order all kind of food and other products on-line. And frankly, finding these shops is so trivial that I am seriously wondering whether your post is a troll. Look at Bitcoin's official homepage.

The problems with Paypal is 2-fold: One, they have their own policies against online currencies. Second, fraud happened: ppl bought Bitcoins and paid with Paypal, ppl took the Bitcoins and did a chargeback with Paypal.

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January 15, 2012, 09:45:41 AM
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I came to this site expecting to learn how to buy bitcoins to invest in them, as a bit of a gamble.  Maybe see if it's worth thinking about getting into mining at some point in the future.

In reality, the more I read the more of a risky business it seems.

The risk of value rising and falling is something I can accept - it's probably the reason I'm interested (that and general curiosity about something new).

The danger seems to be however in the possibility of never being able to exchange your money back from bitcoins to a real world currency (you know - one that you can buy food and pay bills with).  Bitcoins are worth nothing if they cannot be exchanged or used to buy stuff.  You can't really buy stuff and all the major exchanges seem to have had problems with banks, stopping people from getting their money back.

Paxum seems to be a possible solution to that, but this seems to be a company founded in the porn industry by someone who sold penis enlargement pills, with allegations of being connected to scams (epassporte) all over the internet.  Their account verification process and the need to upload ID seem questionable.  The fact this is the sole epayment company used by most of the bitcoin exchanges doesn't instill an air of legitimacy and confidence.

Why are their problems with Banks?  Why not use CCBIll or paypal?

If Bitcoin is to take off it needs to work to feel a bit more mainstream imo.
I'm not familiar with what a CCBill is, but there were several companies that used to accept Paypal in exchange for Bitcoins (and vice-versa).  Problem is, Paypal doesn't like Bitcoins, since it kind of threatens their business, so they freeze accounts and disallow transactions related to Bitcoins.  They won't know about a transaction here or there, but a company whose business it is to exchange Bitcoins will be found out, and will have their funds frozen.  No one wants that, so we just all agree that Paypal is evil and use other methods of withdrawal.

Dwolla is like Paypal, but they don't freeze transactions like Paypal can, and have lower fees.  I sell some of the coins I mine through MtGox, then withdraw through Dwolla, and have it in my bank account before the end of the week.  It's a great method of exchanging BTC back into USD.

Yes, Bitcoins do need some work to go mainstream.  But, that's why we're all here.  We're working to make it better, but we still have the "early adopter" advantage.  If Bitcoins DO go big, the potential for growth is astounding.  And if you're investing for the long haul, because you think Bitcoins are a game-changing tech, then you shouldn't have to worry about exchanging Bitcoins for other currencies.  The more mainstream it gets, the more each Bitcoin will be worth, and the more ways you'll have to exchange that Bitcoin for other currencies.
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January 15, 2012, 09:49:27 AM
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If Bitcoin is to take off it needs to work to feel a bit more mainstream imo.

IMO no one cares about your opinion.

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January 15, 2012, 09:51:30 AM
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If Bitcoin is to take off it needs to work to feel a bit more mainstream imo.

IMO no one cares about your opinion.
Because that's a great attitude to have towards people new to Bitcoin who are asking questions.   Roll Eyes
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January 15, 2012, 09:56:42 AM
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Why are their problems with Banks?  Why not use CCBIll or paypal?

Paypal is great... until it orders you to destroy an antique violin Smiley
The seller remains with no money and no violin which had made it through World War II but not through a PayPal-conducted transaction (http://gizmodo.com/5872958/paypal-smashed-some-ladys-antique-violin-and-can-smash-yours-too)

Without any real competition PayPal has been known to violate its own TOS time and time again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paypal#Criticism_and_limitations)
Let's just mention Wikileaks, Diaspora, Cryptome, or Minecraft.

If Bitcoin is to take off it needs to work to feel a bit more mainstream imo.

Roger that, I wholeheartedly agree.
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January 15, 2012, 10:05:47 AM
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If Bitcoin is to take off it needs to work to feel a bit more mainstream imo.

Roger that, I wholeheartedly agree.

Bill Gates said similar things about the Internet. We all know that the steamlined proprietary networks died and the hairy Internet made it.

That said, it'd be nice if they put some functions into the GUI menu that are available from the command line. Like an easy backup. It's 5 lines of QT calls, but someone has to put it in.

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January 15, 2012, 10:07:48 AM
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If Bitcoin is to take off it needs to work to feel a bit more mainstream imo.

Roger that, I wholeheartedly agree.

Bill Gates said similar things about the Internet. We all know that the steamlined proprietary networks died and the hairy Internet made it.

That said, it'd be nice if they put some functions into the GUI menu that are available from the command line. Like an easy backup. It's 5 lines of QT calls, but someone has to put it in.

I vote for anu.  He apparently knows QT Tongue.

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January 15, 2012, 10:09:29 AM
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If Bitcoin is to take off it needs to work to feel a bit more mainstream imo.

Roger that, I wholeheartedly agree.

Bill Gates said similar things about the Internet. We all know that the steamlined proprietary networks died and the hairy Internet made it.

That said, it'd be nice if they put some functions into the GUI menu that are available from the command line. Like an easy backup. It's 5 lines of QT calls, but someone has to put it in.

I vote for anu.  He apparently knows QT Tongue.

My, my, you sure are a QT.  Kiss

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January 15, 2012, 10:18:58 AM
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Bill Gates said similar things about the Internet. We all know that the steamlined proprietary networks died and the hairy Internet made it.
They failed becuse they were all closed, PROPRIETARY solutions(1) fighting for "world domination". Definitely not because they were too streamlined Smiley

Bill never saw the Internet coming. To the bitter end he was leading a MSN crusade.
When they finally realized the internet was here and they don't even have a browser, they quickly (and poorly) implemented IE.


Notes:
(1)  think SolidCoin.
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January 15, 2012, 10:56:18 AM
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Short term bitcoin is an excellent store of value. Go to exchange, buy coins, go to service, pay for item, done. The biggest problem is buying coins, it's still clunky, but really it's light years ahead compared to a year ago. More currencies are being accepted and there are many more exchanges, money changing services and transaction types being accepted. As a long term investment, I would NOT recommend people dropping any significant money on this, unless they would feel ho-hum about losing it all. I think it's certain bitcoin will eventually become more stable, and merchants can still find ways to confidently use bitcoin even with the price stability issues. But inexperienced investors or speculators might have better success gambling their money away at a casino  Undecided

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January 15, 2012, 02:13:05 PM
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what have you got to sell or buy? I dont see bitcoin having an advantage if it has to be converted to and from other currencies.
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January 15, 2012, 02:38:41 PM
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what have you got to sell or buy? I dont see bitcoin having an advantage if it has to be converted to and from other currencies.

No? How about buying a box of whisky on-line? Are you sure your health insurance company doesn't get to see this info from VISA or Paypal?

How about getting a discount - since Bitcoins can't be recalled, you don't have to pay for all the suckers who like to call back their money after receiving the product. Sure, that is an advantage only if you're honest.

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January 15, 2012, 03:18:57 PM
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what have you got to sell or buy? I dont see bitcoin having an advantage if it has to be converted to and from other currencies.

Also, if privacy and freedom-based arguments don't appeal to you, how about profit-based?

Quoting from https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54842.0:

Today, Ron Paul had a moneybomb donation campaign.

As of the time of this writing, he's raised over $3,000,000, all from credit card donations. At a 3% credit card/merchant account fee, that means $90,000 was wasted tonight just to MOVE the money digitally from donor's digital currency bank accounts to Ron Paul's digital currency bank account.

$90,000!
...

How does that sound?
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January 15, 2012, 03:26:00 PM
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I initially thought this was a troll posting, but stepped back and realised, if someone used to online shopping with mainstream vendors were to drop by, this is exactly what they'd say.

And a reliable, secure, trusted online wallet is an essential part of mainstream acceptance. Even though those things seem self-contradictory. They'll still emerge as part of the web-of-trust that will be needed to make this a transactional currency.

I'm not begging, just putting this somewhere easy to find 1Pm2Sf4eUxksGaYujCgEpYyZ7ddjPyQ5R4
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January 15, 2012, 06:19:30 PM
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I'm not trolling at all. 

I'm completely new to bitcoins, not adverse to a small gamble and also generally interested in the privacy aspect (and the fact that this it's not controlled by lizards)  Also not keen on throwing money away however!

Before coming here I'd presumed that bitcoin exchanges were pretty secure legit companies able to operate on an open/honest basis.

I look into buying some coin though and find the company I am about to deposit money through (Intersango) have an intermediary company set up at a residential address that they want me to send funds to, and their bank has frozen their accounts.  In fact they seem to need to change their banking arrangements every couple of months.

Then I read about another large exchange where people are unable to withdraw money from recently (TradeHill).

With a healthy degree of paranoia, I think then that it's maybe not a good idea to make a payment direct from my bank account, so I am not put on to some sort of watch list circulated at the next Bilderburg  meet, so I look at alternatives, and see Paxum as a method.  I create an account with them but their system seems a bit strange.  Researching the company on google is not reassuring.

It all adds up to create a feeling that bitcoins are somehow not legit.  Quite possibly not "bitcoins' fault", perhaps the bitcoin system is victim here.

What is the issue between banks and exchanges though?  From a n00b perspective, this is something that seems to need resolving as a priority.  OK I can understan why banks don't want BTC to take off but if it's a legit then how can they get away with messing around?  The exchanges need to find a way to work with banks because if people cannot get money into and out of BTC from currently conventional forms then what's the future?
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January 15, 2012, 06:41:36 PM
 #17

How about you just try it first with a small amount to see if that works for you?


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January 15, 2012, 08:56:36 PM
 #18

Theoretically you could even sell your bitcoins on ebay or another market place..

as long as somebody on earth is willing to pay money for bitcoin you can sell it to that person.
Given the fact, that bitcoin is transferrable around the world in no time and at almost no cost, that is the principle..


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January 15, 2012, 08:58:48 PM
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I'm not trolling at all. 

I'm completely new to bitcoins, not adverse to a small gamble and also generally interested in the privacy aspect (and the fact that this it's not controlled by lizards)  Also not keen on throwing money away however!

Before coming here I'd presumed that bitcoin exchanges were pretty secure legit companies able to operate on an open/honest basis.

I look into buying some coin though and find the company I am about to deposit money through (Intersango) have an intermediary company set up at a residential address that they want me to send funds to, and their bank has frozen their accounts.  In fact they seem to need to change their banking arrangements every couple of months.

Then I read about another large exchange where people are unable to withdraw money from recently (TradeHill).

With a healthy degree of paranoia, I think then that it's maybe not a good idea to make a payment direct from my bank account, so I am not put on to some sort of watch list circulated at the next Bilderburg  meet, so I look at alternatives, and see Paxum as a method.  I create an account with them but their system seems a bit strange.  Researching the company on google is not reassuring.

It all adds up to create a feeling that bitcoins are somehow not legit.  Quite possibly not "bitcoins' fault", perhaps the bitcoin system is victim here.

What is the issue between banks and exchanges though?  From a n00b perspective, this is something that seems to need resolving as a priority.  OK I can understan why banks don't want BTC to take off but if it's a legit then how can they get away with messing around?  The exchanges need to find a way to work with banks because if people cannot get money into and out of BTC from currently conventional forms then what's the future?
One company around here (I forgot which one, because I've never used the process, only heard about it) allows you to deposit cash at a Chase bank, and they will immediately update your account balance with USD to spend.  That might be a good option to look in to since you're running into roadblocks elsewhere.

Maybe someone else can chime in with the name of that company/exchange/service.

Also, if you're suspicious or paranoid, that's fine.  Just start with something small, like $10-$20, and run it through the whole process so you can see how it works, and then go from there.
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January 15, 2012, 09:00:46 PM
 #20

One company around here (I forgot which one, because I've never used the process, only heard about it) allows you to deposit cash at a Chase bank, and they will immediately update your account balance with USD to spend.  That might be a good option to look in to since you're running into roadblocks elsewhere.

Cheers - but I am in UK...
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