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Author Topic: $7 - explaination of price level  (Read 2802 times)
SkRRJyTC
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January 16, 2012, 01:44:54 PM
 #21

Keep thinning out $6.90 to $7.10 ... thats fine by me.
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realnowhereman
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January 16, 2012, 02:41:22 PM
 #22

The ability to short is what will prevent the next bubble.  A bubble is caused by positive feedback.  Buy and the price goes up; that meant your buy was sensible.  Therefore buy more and the price goes up more... yay, more profit.  Positive feedback always results in unstable systems.

Last June, there was no way to short.  The price was going up and up.  Those who thought that bitcoins were overpriced, but held dollars, could express that opinion by... not buying.  The absence of a bid is not the same as the presence of an ask; it's neutral.  Dollar holders couldn't profit from the overpriced market.

This time... shorting is possible.  As the bubble gets more and more out of control, those who see that can supply a downward pressure.  Profit is a healthy motivator, so they will want to short.  The more overpriced they become, the more profit to be made from shorting.  This is negative feedback.  Negative feedback results in stable systems.

The downward pressure from shorting will meet the upward pressure from the bubble and find a balance point.  That point will be a (more) stable price.  Who knows what that price is, but shorting helps the market find it and stick to it.

Shorting makes markets less volatile, not more volatile.

I think the results are already obvious; the growth rate this time around is much slower.  There are repeated pushes back down from $7.2.  It's much healthier in the long run.

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January 16, 2012, 02:46:50 PM
 #23

The ability to short is what will prevent the next bubble.  A bubble is caused by positive feedback.  Buy and the price goes up; that meant your buy was sensible.  Therefore buy more and the price goes up more... yay, more profit.  Positive feedback always results in unstable systems.

Last June, there was no way to short.  The price was going up and up.  Those who thought that bitcoins were overpriced, but held dollars, could express that opinion by... not buying.  The absence of a bid is not the same as the presence of an ask; it's neutral.  Dollar holders couldn't profit from the overpriced market.

This time... shorting is possible.  As the bubble gets more and more out of control, those who see that can supply a downward pressure.  Profit is a healthy motivator, so they will want to short.  The more overpriced they become, the more profit to be made from shorting.  This is negative feedback.  Negative feedback results in stable systems.

The downward pressure from shorting will meet the upward pressure from the bubble and find a balance point.  That point will be a (more) stable price.  Who knows what that price is, but shorting helps the market find it and stick to it.

Shorting makes markets less volatile, not more volatile.

I think the results are already obvious; the growth rate this time around is much slower.  There are repeated pushes back down from $7.2.  It's much healthier in the long run.


Very well said!

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January 16, 2012, 02:48:28 PM
 #24

Well said indeed. We will not see a repeat of June this time, it will be different. But the price won't be stable at single digits, that's for sure.

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January 16, 2012, 03:03:29 PM
 #25

Well said indeed. We will not see a repeat of June this time, it will be different. But the price won't be stable at single digits, that's for sure.

Quite so; I wouldn't want to pick any particular price.  If I knew that I'd be rich.  I simply wanted to observe that shorting (despite its reputation) doesn't build more volatility in; it acts as a counter to volatility.

However, shorting doesn't prevent genuine price rises, just as the ability to create an ask price for a bitcoin doesn't prevent price rises. Price rises will still happen (I hope), but they won't run away with us and form a bubble.

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January 16, 2012, 05:55:11 PM
 #26

Bitcoinica: Adding volatility to volatility since 2011.

LOL!
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January 16, 2012, 06:16:31 PM
 #27

Bitcoinica: Using the fuck out of a new exploit on the market.



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January 16, 2012, 06:23:50 PM
 #28

Bitcoinica: Using the fuck out of a new exploit on the market.



(img)

No.  That was me.


I was longing with 10:1 leverage.  I got liquidated and so the price dropped as my BTC got liquidated.


Because a lot of people had buy orders that weren't being executed because of the "no reserve" problem, once I got liquidated they were able to buy once again.
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January 16, 2012, 06:27:46 PM
 #29

Let me see your history data  Roll Eyes


your explanation has hardly to do with the simultaneous rise in equivalent magnitude.
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January 16, 2012, 06:54:32 PM
 #30

This is how it's supposed to work. You use an event like a press release, trade show, media event, etc as bait to bring in fresh fish. You first reel them up in price and then you set the hook. Tee hee!

I was just thinking of the TV show, which I still haven't watched. I burned out on formulaic crap TV written by robots assisted by monkeys a lot time ago and the show itself sure looks likes it from here, but I probably will get around to watching it sometime this week.

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January 16, 2012, 06:57:34 PM
 #31

Let me see your history data  Roll Eyes


your explanation has hardly to do with the simultaneous rise in equivalent magnitude.

Well IF he really got liquidated on a big position, it might bring in enough USD to Bitcoinica. It wouldn't surprise me if they have loads of pending buy orders waiting till the asterisk leaves the buy button, which it would once fresh USD comes in. That would cause an upward spike immediately after the sell-off.

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January 16, 2012, 06:58:00 PM
 #32

The rise wasn't simultaneous in magnitude. It went down about 10k, and then up about 2k.

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January 16, 2012, 07:03:35 PM
 #33

The rise wasn't simultaneous in magnitude. It went down about 10k, and then up about 2k.

What was the USD volume... that would be more relevant.

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Mushoz
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January 16, 2012, 07:06:57 PM
 #34

The rise wasn't simultaneous in magnitude. It went down about 10k, and then up about 2k.

Doesn't have to be. It could be they are reserving extra USD for the shorties, so they can still liquidate if they want. It isn't far fetched those supplies were a little bit drained as well from shorties liquidating their positions. That's why the up-spike wasn't as big volume-wise.

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notme
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January 16, 2012, 07:09:21 PM
 #35

The rise wasn't simultaneous in magnitude. It went down about 10k, and then up about 2k.

Doesn't have to be. It could be they are reserving extra USD for the shorties, so they can still liquidate if they want. It isn't far fetched those supplies were a little bit drained as well from shorties liquidating their positions. That's why the up-spike wasn't as big volume-wise.

Good point.

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Dutch Merganser
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January 17, 2012, 08:25:14 PM
 #36

This is how it's supposed to work. You use an event like a press release, trade show, media event, etc as bait to bring in fresh fish. You first reel them up in price and then you set the hook. Tee hee!

I was just thinking of the TV show, which I still haven't watched. I burned out on formulaic crap TV written by robots assisted by monkeys a lot time ago and the show itself sure looks likes it from here, but I probably will get around to watching it sometime this week.


Looks like the media event gambit worked quite nicely. This sort of thing was SOP during the internet bubble day trading days and most often done with a press release:
1. Lunchtime Day 1: Press release announces dimwit.com has cured cancer.
2. Afternoon/Evening Day 1:  The fish all line up to load up on dimwit's stock, it shoots up. Short into the buying.
3. Morning Day 2: Continue shorting.
4. Lunchtime Day 2: Press release clarifies that cancer is only cured in the virtual online world created by dimwit.com. Stock tanks.
5. Afternoon Day 2: cover.

The above timeline is only an example, sometimes it might all be over by the end of Day 1, sometimes the fish would keep pushing dimwit.com up for a couple of days before it tanked and they moved on to the next internet miracle.

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I did try to watch "The Good Wife" episode. It took a bit of fast forwarding, it was every bit the piece of tedious legal procedural "drama" it promised to be, 48 minutes, bleh! They said "bitcoin" a lot. Resolution was inane beyond belief. I think "Mr. Bitcoin" should have been a pet name for her husband's penis, revealed during the discovery process by an unusually located tattoo  Wink

"Science flies you to the Moon, religion flies you into buildings."
 - Victor Stenger

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and the rulers as useful."
 - Seneca the Elder (ca. 54 BCE - ca. 39 CE) Roman rhetorician
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January 17, 2012, 09:53:17 PM
 #37

Whether its Bitcoinica, Manipulators, Irrational Sentiment, etc.... it has taken us in the last 3 weeks to
a $6-$7 trading range. Stability is good.
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January 17, 2012, 11:07:27 PM
 #38

Looks like the media event gambit worked quite nicely. This sort of thing was SOP during the internet bubble day trading days and most often done with a press release:

Interesting possibility there, Dutch.  What if the same person that did the buying starting January 1st, is also the person doing all the selling now?  Denial can be strong, but one must admit that it's a possibility. 

What I find very interesting is that even with the price down to ~$5 now, the player that's been selling heavily to $6.50 appears to have no chance of buying back in at that level, with depth to $6.50 of only 8k btc.

And on the amusing side, the order book appears balanced again. Smiley
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January 17, 2012, 11:09:16 PM
 #39


And on the amusing side, the order book appears balanced again. Smiley

I don't think so.



As you can see, none of those sold coins appear to have come from the giant ask accumulation of the past day.  So, um, that's probably not good.
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January 17, 2012, 11:16:07 PM
 #40

Looks like the media event gambit worked quite nicely. This sort of thing was SOP during the internet bubble day trading days and most often done with a press release:

Interesting possibility there, Dutch.  What if the same person that did the buying starting January 1st, is also the person doing all the selling now?  Denial can be strong, but one must admit that it's a possibility. 


Can you imagine such a thing happening? How surprising it would be!  Wink

"Science flies you to the Moon, religion flies you into buildings."
 - Victor Stenger

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and the rulers as useful."
 - Seneca the Elder (ca. 54 BCE - ca. 39 CE) Roman rhetorician
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