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Author Topic: Bitcoin conceptual problem?  (Read 1871 times)
kungla
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April 15, 2011, 09:29:13 PM
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Bitcoin is generaly cool idea, but isn't it unfair?

I calculated that if almost everybody in the world would want to use a bitcoin as a main currency, then one bitcoin would cost about 1 million dollars!

As I understand it isn't technical problem, but people dont like unfair systems and this is why bitcoin can't spread freely I think. It is unfair because some of you already have a lot of bitcoins and the onese who are late will haveto pay too much for what the "rich" onese got for almost free.

I bought 10 bitcoins today and payed about 10 dollars. But first ones who used a bitcoin client did get same amaound almoust for free. If I think about that - I don't want to buy more bitcoins.

What do you think about that?

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April 15, 2011, 09:47:32 PM
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if everybody in the world used bitcoin, then the early adopters did a big part in the establishment of the first world currency. i think they deserve the reward. which will be much less, because many will sell earlier, receiving less. the people they sold to receive some part of the final "reward" too, and so on.
its not unfair, because you can join in anytime if you think its worth it.

if you think bitcoin will be a great success but still dont want to buy bitcoin and earn a shitload of money just because somebody else might earn even more, well.... enjoy being poor and envious  Wink

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April 15, 2011, 09:57:54 PM
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An early adopter may have paid less per Bitcoin, but at the time they decided to invest their time and electricity in the system, they had much higher risks as well in terms of knowing whether the currency would ever take off. This continues to be the case. The BTC/fiat exchange rates may continue to rise, or they may not. If they do, the money you spent now may seem low to someone buying BTC later on. In buying Bitcoin, you're taking a risk, assuming you're thinking of it as an investment. High risk should come with high rewards.

In the end, it's a balancing act. For a currency to be useful, people have to have some to begin with. The wider the currency is circulated, the better. If Bitcoins were priced at 1 USD per Bitcoin to begin with, somehow, or had the difficulty of mining new coins been what it is now, few would have taken the risk. Maybe some people end up getting a very high return for their investments. A lot of these people will have done much to help Bitcoin along, though, and many will have been spending their coins at exchange rates much lower than the current ones. I bought some coffee when the rate was about 0,33 USD/ BTC, and that first pizza bought with BTC may well have been among the most expensive pizzas ever if you consider the exchange rates now.

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April 15, 2011, 09:59:26 PM
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Bitcoin is generaly cool idea, but isn't it unfair?

I calculated that if almost everybody in the world would want to use a bitcoin as a main currency, then one bitcoin would cost about 1 million dollars!

As I understand it isn't technical problem, but people dont like unfair systems and this is why bitcoin can't spread freely I think. It is unfair because some of you already have a lot of bitcoins and the onese who are late will haveto pay too much for what the "rich" onese got for almost free.

I bought 10 bitcoins today and payed about 10 dollars. But first ones who used a bitcoin client did get same amaound almoust for free. If I think about that - I don't want to buy more bitcoins.

What do you think about that?



Bitcoins are very, very divisible. Do some searching and I'm sure you will easily find the answer to that.

Being an early adopter entails risk. You are spending precious time and energy on an idea that may never take hold. You could be using that time and energy for many other things that could earn you some reward. Don't you agree that those who took that early risk deserve some kind of compensation for their efforts. They created the community you see now. I think it's fantastic and I tip my hat to them.
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April 15, 2011, 10:30:42 PM
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I like your question, I've thought about it a lot.  If everyone "invests" in bitcoin, but doesn't use it to buy anything with or spend it, the value of it won't go up.  Its a paradox:  In order for for your investment in bitcoin to go up, you have to spend some bitcoin.  In order for bitcoin to take on value, it needs to prove its value by being a better medium of exchange than say, the dollar or the euro.  Its a chicken and egg problem.  I do hope that people start using bitcoin, and I do hope it takes on value.  But I'm also committed to using it as a medium of exchange as often as possible.  I'm disbursing bitcoins as rewards for people who spend their money at the shops that I advertise on Bitcoin Bonus.  Gavin Andreesen has probably invested the most time in the bitcoin project, but he's doing a very wise thing, he's giving away bitcoins to as many DIFFERENT people as possible.  I hope to do the same, I see it as an investment in the overall bitcoin project that will make people want to use bitcoin more often.  I do hope that people won't just hoard or collect bitcoins, but find a way to use them.  One way, or another they eventually, will, I just hope it is sooner than later.

There has always been inequalities in the distribution of wealth, I don't see any reason why bitcoin distribution won't be any different.  But if the money flows and is transacted often, and is easy to transact, and there is a known money supply within the system that doesn't change unexpectedly, then we have hope for it to be the most equitable form of money ever.

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grondilu
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April 15, 2011, 10:39:50 PM
 #6

Bitcoin is generaly cool idea, but isn't it unfair?

I calculated that if almost everybody in the world would want to use a bitcoin as a main currency, then one bitcoin would cost about 1 million dollars!


I assure you that if one bitcoin was to reach a price of one million dollars (adjusted from inflation), then most of early buyers would have sold most of their bitcoins much before this price is reached.

As I currently own a few thousand bitcoins, I can tell you that if bitcoin was reaching just 100$ or 100€, I'd sell most of it.

People tend to forget this.  You can not know for sure that what you own will reach a certain price until it actually does.   Actually, if someone was hanging on his bitcoins during long enough to see their price make him billionaire, then for sure this guy would receive a well deserved reward for having resisted the temptation of selling before.
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April 15, 2011, 11:29:30 PM
 #7

Bitcoin is generaly cool idea, but isn't it unfair?

I calculated that if almost everybody in the world would want to use a bitcoin as a main currency, then one bitcoin would cost about 1 million dollars!

As I understand it isn't technical problem, but people dont like unfair systems and this is why bitcoin can't spread freely I think. It is unfair because some of you already have a lot of bitcoins and the onese who are late will haveto pay too much for what the "rich" onese got for almost free.

I bought 10 bitcoins today and payed about 10 dollars. But first ones who used a bitcoin client did get same amaound almoust for free. If I think about that - I don't want to buy more bitcoins.

What do you think about that?



I think it is BS.

You label a topic "Conceptual" and then put up a whiny, "I got here late so its not for me" sour grapes egocentric argument that is about as far from conceptual as possible ... I say, get a life.

Bitcoin will work because it is superior to the other completely unfair systems out there ... get in now or you'll still be whining miserably when it gets to $100 per BTC.

kungla
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April 16, 2011, 07:53:29 AM
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Thank you for answers and I still think that bitcoin is a very good idea and as long there is not a better solution, it is the best and it is atractive

moa - if you are so negative to people asking question about new currency system, you scare them away. Isn't that bad for you and others investment? Maybe I consider invest a lot of money to this new system and I have some doubts before I do it?

Is it possibile to make money flows more transperant? I mean - make a statistic like this:


1%  of accounts average is X bitcoins
5%  of accounts average is Y bitcoins
10% of accounts average is Z bitcoins
20% of accounts average is T bitcoins
.... and so on

That would let me see how well the money is spread and that would let me help to make decisions?


grondilu
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April 16, 2011, 08:10:48 AM
 #9

1%  of accounts average is X bitcoins
5%  of accounts average is Y bitcoins
10% of accounts average is Z bitcoins
20% of accounts average is T bitcoins
.... and so on

That would let me see how well the money is spread and that would let me help to make decisions?

It would be very easy to do as it is only a statistical analysis of the block chain.

However, it wouldn't mean anything, as there is no way to know which accounts belong to the same people (remember you can own as many bitcoin addresses as you want).
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April 16, 2011, 10:59:18 AM
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Thank you for answers and I still think that bitcoin is a very good idea and as long there is not a better solution, it is the best and it is atractive

moa - if you are so negative to people asking question about new currency system, you scare them away. Isn't that bad for you and others investment? Maybe I consider invest a lot of money to this new system and I have some doubts before I do it?

Is it possibile to make money flows more transperant? I mean - make a statistic like this:


1%  of accounts average is X bitcoins
5%  of accounts average is Y bitcoins
10% of accounts average is Z bitcoins
20% of accounts average is T bitcoins
.... and so on

That would let me see how well the money is spread and that would let me help to make decisions?


This info is all available. I'd donate a little for an easy way to view it though. Another thing I'd like to see is the % of coins which haven't been spent, % that are one tx away from a generate, 2 away, and so on.

Bitcoinwatch.com and Blockexplorer.com have some info.

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April 16, 2011, 12:05:43 PM
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Bitcoin is at least as fair as any other currency out there.

Everybody enters the world with exactly 0 USD, 0 EUR, 0 BTC, and 0 of every other currency in circulation. And everybody needs to get the money to pay for goods and services, either through somebody giving it to them (as especially happens with children), or through earning it themselves somehow.

Bitcoin's method of introducing new money into circulation at least gives it to the people who are processing transactions and keeping the network running well. The way that central banks introduce new fiat money into circulation is to create as much as they want and give it to whomever they want. Bitcoin's method is a bit more transparent, and I'd think more fair.
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April 16, 2011, 12:41:49 PM
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Personally, I've decided not to use Google because I didn't buy any shares at their IPO.

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April 16, 2011, 02:12:27 PM
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Bitcoin is at least as fair as any other currency out there.

Everybody enters the world with exactly 0 USD, 0 EUR, 0 BTC, and 0 of every other currency in circulation. And everybody needs to get the money to pay for goods and services, either through somebody giving it to them (as especially happens with children), or through earning it themselves somehow.

Bitcoin's method of introducing new money into circulation at least gives it to the people who are processing transactions and keeping the network running well. The way that central banks introduce new fiat money into circulation is to create as much as they want and give it to whomever they want. Bitcoin's method is a bit more transparent, and I'd think more fair.

Yep and the first to get the freshly printed money are banks, investment banks, and other financially well off institutions. I like the fact that with bitcoin the creation process is very democratic or rather egalitarian. There is no supposedly wise and all knowing bitcoin Federal Reserve dishing out bitcoins to only two super rich bitcoin users and saying 'none for you' to the regular miner/user.


grondilu
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April 16, 2011, 07:08:32 PM
 #14

Bitcoin is at least as fair as any other currency out there.

Everybody enters the world with exactly 0 USD, 0 EUR, 0 BTC, and 0 of every other currency in circulation.

Well, some people would not agree on that, as they'll start talking to you about heritage, social status and stuff like that.

But when people give wealth to their children, they do nothing but expressing their natural love for their offspring.  Is it unfair that a mother loves her kid more than someone else's?

If so, then I'd say communists don't really have a problem with money, they have a problem with life.
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April 16, 2011, 07:22:02 PM
 #15

I bought 10 bitcoins today and payed about 10 dollars. But first ones who used a bitcoin client did get same amaound almoust for free. If I think about that - I don't want to buy more bitcoins.

What do you think about that?
dude, what? you bought 10,000 uBTC for $10??? I wish I would've bought that early.
look at date of quote from molecular (quote from the future)

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molecular
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April 16, 2011, 07:34:44 PM
 #16

Bitcoin is generaly cool idea, but isn't it unfair?

I calculated that if almost everybody in the world would want to use a bitcoin as a main currency, then one bitcoin would cost about 1 million dollars!

As I understand it isn't technical problem, but people dont like unfair systems and this is why bitcoin can't spread freely I think. It is unfair because some of you already have a lot of bitcoins and the onese who are late will haveto pay too much for what the "rich" onese got for almost free.

I bought 10 bitcoins today and payed about 10 dollars. But first ones who used a bitcoin client did get same amaound almoust for free. If I think about that - I don't want to buy more bitcoins.

What do you think about that?

I actually thought about that quite a lot.

Assuming bitcoin takes off and 1 USD of today equivalates to 0.000001 BTC, then, as you say, some people are extremely rich (about 1000 people?).

My thought is: "So what, what will they do?". Who are these people? Should we envy them? I tend to think they are "good" people. So maybe these people will act as a kind of "Free Private Reserve", selflessly using some of their Bitcoins to do (maybe necessary) regulation of the money "supply" that is currently done by the central banks. Maybe these people are the Central Banks of the future (the FED is a private bank, too)... after all, they don't have to worry about their personal well-being and some of them own such humongous amounts of money that they can easily inject some into the world if needed.

What do you think about that?

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grondilu
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April 16, 2011, 07:41:34 PM
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I actually thought about that quite a lot.

Assuming bitcoin takes off and 1 USD of today equivalates to 0.000001 BTC, then, as you say, some people are extremely rich (about 1000 people?).

My thought is: "So what, what will they do?". Who are these people? Should we envy them? I tend to think they are "good" people. So maybe these people will act as a kind of "Free Private Reserve", selflessly using some of their Bitcoins to do (maybe necessary) regulation of the money "supply" that is currently done by the central banks. Maybe these people are the Central Banks of the future (the FED is a private bank, too)... after all, they don't have to worry about their personal well-being and some of them own such humongous amounts of money that they can easily inject some into the world if needed.

What do you think about that?


Before bitcoin reaches 1,000,000$, those people would have been very very little greedy if they resisted selling their bitcoins.

High prices are a huge incentive to sell.  If someone is capable of resisting the temptation of selling and if he can wait until bitcoin reaches 1,000,000$, then I say he deserves to get rich.

(damn it's annowiing as hell to constantly answer to the same stuffs.  Anyone can put that in the FAQ?)
kungla
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April 16, 2011, 07:56:55 PM
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I actually thought about that quite a lot.

Assuming bitcoin takes off and 1 USD of today equivalates to 0.000001 BTC, then, as you say, some people are extremely rich (about 1000 people?).

My thought is: "So what, what will they do?". Who are these people? Should we envy them? I tend to think they are "good" people. So maybe these people will act as a kind of "Free Private Reserve", selflessly using some of their Bitcoins to do (maybe necessary) regulation of the money "supply" that is currently done by the central banks. Maybe these people are the Central Banks of the future (the FED is a private bank, too)... after all, they don't have to worry about their personal well-being and some of them own such humongous amounts of money that they can easily inject some into the world if needed.

What do you think about that?

[/quote]

That would be kind of them - but we can not count on that. But i think it is not a huge problem - it is almoust same right know or worse. I like that bitcoin is independet and almost uncontrollable (very rich people can play with currency with sell/buy transactions) and I think it is what money should be like, if it is needed at all.

And as Grondilu sad, if bitcoin value rises, then bitrich ones probably sell a lot of them and buy some willas and airplains or spaceships in that time Smiley

Does anybody know, are there any bitcoin milionares right know? Am I right that first million bitcoins were generated in short time by small group?
molecular
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April 16, 2011, 08:01:37 PM
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And as Grondilu sad, if bitcoin value rises, then bitrich ones probably sell a lot of them and buy some willas and airplains or spaceships in that time Smiley

true, and why did I read "bitrich" as "bitches"? Wink

also: can you please edit your post, you screwed up my quote so it looks like you said it yourself.

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