Sia - Siafund Redemption Deadline: June 1st, 2015

[Taek]

For some reason, hadn't considered it. Your MetaDisk UI is quite beautiful.

The repo doesn't have a license though, which prevents us from being certain about the terms associated with using the software. Please add that. The majority of Sia is going to be released under the MIT license.

[1714065063]

1714065063

[1714065063]

1714065063

[1714065063]

1714065063

[1714065063]

1714065063

[1714065063]

1714065063

[1714065063]

1714065063

[Taek]

New whitepaper is live!

Check out siacoin.com/sia.pdf

[Lordoftherigs]

New whitepaper is live!

Check out siacoin.com/sia.pdf

I'm not sure I understand the numbers here.

White paper states that : ''Nebulous Inc. will initially hold 95% of the siafunds, and the early crowd-fund backers of Sia will hold the remaining 5%.''

But wasn't 15% of sianotes sold during IPO ?

Edit: is this due to fees increased from 3.5% to 10% ?
 

[bubbletea789]

New whitepaper is live!

Check out siacoin.com/sia.pdf

how to get siafunds?
--and where is siastock (from the title of his thread) in the picture?

[super3]

For some reason, hadn't considered it. Your MetaDisk UI is quite beautiful.

The repo doesn't have a license though, which prevents us from being certain about the terms associated with using the software. Please add that. The majority of Sia is going to be released under the MIT license.

Oops. Yeah that should be MIT like all our other repos.

[gs02xzz]

New whitepaper is live!
Check out siacoin.com/sia.pdf

how to get siafunds?
--and where is siastock (from the title of his thread) in the picture?

You can buy Sianotes at Nxt AE trading platform - https://nxtblocks.info/#section/assets_exchange/market/11593659039925686857

[super3]

Fixed.

[Taek]

New whitepaper is live!

Check out siacoin.com/sia.pdf

I'm not sure I understand the numbers here.

White paper states that : ''Nebulous Inc. will initially hold 95% of the siafunds, and the early crowd-fund backers of Sia will hold the remaining 5%.''

But wasn't 15% of sianotes sold during IPO ?

Edit: is this due to fees increased from 3.5% to 10% ?
 

Yes, the total amount has increased from 3.9% to 10%, the % that crowd funders hold is the same as always, "One Sianote can be directly converted to 0.00039% of host income from renting storage, or 10,000 for 3.9% of all host income from storage. Currently, there are approximately 1250 sianotes in circulation, or just under 0.5%." 10% isn't a finalized number, but I think that it's a safe number for us to pick. The risk of course as we increase the number is that people will be encouraged to use a fork instead of using us directly, but I think that our network effect in combination with our software (which will have multiple full time developers working on it being funded by the 9.5% in control of Nebulous) will bring both advantages in efficiency and usability.

how to get siafunds?
--and where is siastock (from the title of his thread) in the picture?

siastock got renamed to sianotes, because we wanted to avoid issues with the SEC. Siastock makes it sound like we were selling corporate equity, which we were not. We wanted to eliminate as much confusion as possible but unfortunately couldn't change the title of the thread. (... ... ... apparently you can... ... ... I'm not sure why I didn't change it earlier). Sianotes are the asset that's available on the Nxt AE, and are directly convertable to the siafunds that are discussed in the whitepaper.

Fixed.

many thanks

[bubbletea789]

so sianotes (on Nxt AE) can be converted to siafunds at the ratio of 1:3 ?

[Taek]

No, sianotes will convert to siafunds at a 1:1 ratio. 1 sianote converts to 1 siafund. There will be (subject to change) 25,000 siafunds total, and each one will earn 0.00039% of host income from renting storage. Nebulous will own approx. 23800 of these siafunds, converting to approx a 9.282% fee. The crowdfunders will own approx. 1200, converting to approx a 0.468% fee, for a total fee of around 9.75%. This matches the terms of the crowdfund, giving the crowdfunders exactly the fee portion that they have paid for.

[ownerbest]

Do u have any plan to issue some more sianotes at a reasonable price?

[Momimaus]

No, sianotes will convert to siafunds at a 1:1 ratio. 1 sianote converts to 1 siafund. There will be (subject to change) 25,000 siafunds total, and each one will earn 0.00039% of host income from renting storage. Nebulous will own approx. 23800 of these siafunds, converting to approx a 9.282% fee. The crowdfunders will own approx. 1200, converting to approx a 0.468% fee, for a total fee of around 9.75%. This matches the terms of the crowdfund, giving the crowdfunders exactly the fee portion that they have paid for.

Doesn´t look like that.

You just increase the available siafuns by 150% and the reason therefore is that you increase the fees? Why shouldn´t the stakeholders participate of the increasing fees?

[msin]

This matches the terms of the crowdfund, giving the crowdfunders exactly the fee portion that they have paid for.

It doesn't mean people will like it or anyone will support it.  You may just alienate much of your beta userbase and community.  I think you overestimate your network effect.

[gs02xzz]

Yes, the total amount has increased from 3.9% to 10%, the % that crowd funders hold is the same as always, "One Sianote can be directly converted to 0.00039% of host income from renting storage, or 10,000 for 3.9% of all host income from storage. Currently, there are approximately 1250 sianotes in circulation, or just under 0.5%." 10% isn't a finalized number, but I think that it's a safe number for us to pick. The risk of course as we increase the number is that people will be encouraged to use a fork instead of using us directly, but I think that our network effect in combination with our software (which will have multiple full time developers working on it being funded by the 9.5% in control of Nebulous) will bring both advantages in efficiency and usability.

What is the rationale behind the business decision to increase the fee from 3.9% to 10%? Is it still pretty affordable and attractive to the users?

[Taek]

What is the rationale behind the business decision to increase the fee from 3.9% to 10%? Is it still pretty affordable and attractive to the users?

It more than doubles our income while still having only a 10% overhead for users. Typical could storage overhead is closer to 40%, and that's the number I've been told many times that I should be charging, which seems completely absurd to me. Most people don't believe that we'll have enough money for development, let alone marketing. Typical cloud storage operations apparently are very expensive and have many more costs than just the hardware. We'll have to see how that works for Sia, but 10% seems like it'll bring in enough cash to me.

In terms of scaring away users, I'm pretty confident that our host-picking algorithms and erasure coding will put us substantially more than 10% cheaper than everyone else, including decentralized competitors like Storj, MaidSAFE, and Filecoin. You may be paying a 10% fee to use the network, but even with the fee it's going to be the most attractive option for both hosts and clients. (clients will need less redundancy, which means they are paying hosts more per raw TB, but less overall, and getting the same or even a greater level of security). We are planning on leaving ourselves room to reduce this number if it prevents us from being competitive in the marketplace.

Doesn´t look like that.

You just increase the available siafuns by 150% and the reason therefore is that you increase the fees? Why shouldn´t the stakeholders participate of the increasing fees?

It doesn't mean people will like it or anyone will support it.  You may just alienate much of your beta userbase and community.  I think you overestimate your network effect.

We are trying to maximize the value of each siafund. We believe that by making the fee 10%, we'll be able to hire more developers in a way that gives us a stronger edge than we would have from increased users due to a reduced fee. If Nebulous has twice the money, we can hire twice the developers and end up with a much stronger product. We believe that this stronger product will be the dominant factor in the number of users that we have, and that the 10% fee will be negligible, especially when compared against a 50% savings over the competition.

Meaning, we believe that by giving ourselves more income, we believe we'll also be able to boost the value of each of your siafunds (by being able to grow faster and have a stronger product) even though the percent of the fee you are receiving is the same. The percent is the same, but we think that the total volume of usage will be higher.

=====

Most importantly though, I feel very obligated to stick to the 0.00039% value that I've repeated many times. I've encouraged everyone to make decisions around that number and not any other number. Changing that number means we're altering what we told people to expect when they were making their investment decisions. People who chose not to buy may have decided to buy in the event that each sianote would actually be worth more than 0.00039%.  Furthermore, if we create a precedent for changing this value, you lose the security of knowing that it won't decrease. If we decide later that a 10% fee is actually bad (because Storj, for example, ends up being 10% cheaper) and we need to reduce it, do we also drop how much a sianote is worth? How will that affect people who have been investing in the sianote?

I realize that changing the total fee is a big move, but I am trying to do the right thing. If it ends up being a major source of contention, and you guys feel universally that you are being cheated because we raised our fee without including you, all that will happen is we reduce the fee back to the original 3.9%. I feel that this would hurt Sia overall because it affects the number of people that we can hire, that affects the quality of the product. But I would much rather set the total fee at 3.9% than set a precedent of adjusting the income provided by the sianote, even if the first adjustment was upwards. I don't  think that I would ever feel comfortable adjusting the number down from a previous amount (if I did decide to set it at 0.001%, I would never lower it), and that would back us into a corner if we suddenly realized that the fee was too high, because either we have to fully take the hit ourselves (to isolate our crowdfunders) or we have to lower the value of the sianote back down from 0.001%, which would violate expectations that we had set.

I'm willing to work with you guys on this, but I'm very nervous about straying from the 0.00039% value that I've repeated so many times. I don't think it would be right to adjust those expectations.

[gs02xzz]

Most importantly though, I feel very obligated to stick to the 0.00039% value that I've repeated many times. I've encouraged everyone to make decisions around that number and not any other number. Changing that number means we're altering what we told people to expect when they were making their investment decisions. People who chose not to buy may have decided to buy in the event that each sianote would actually be worth more than 0.00039%.  Furthermore, if we create a precedent for changing this value, you lose the security of knowing that it won't decrease. If we decide later that a 10% fee is actually bad (because Storj, for example, ends up being 10% cheaper) and we need to reduce it, do we also drop how much a sianote is worth? How will that affect people who have been investing in the sianote?

I realize that changing the total fee is a big move, but I am trying to do the right thing. If it ends up being a major source of contention, and you guys feel universally that you are being cheated because we raised our fee without including you, all that will happen is we reduce the fee back to the original 3.9%. I feel that this would hurt Sia overall because it affects the number of people that we can hire, that affects the quality of the product. But I would much rather set the total fee at 3.9% than set a precedent of adjusting the income provided by the sianote, even if the first adjustment was upwards. I don't  think that I would ever feel comfortable adjusting the number down from a previous amount (if I did decide to set it at 0.001%, I would never lower it), and that would back us into a corner if we suddenly realized that the fee was too high, because either we have to fully take the hit ourselves (to isolate our crowdfunders) or we have to lower the value of the sianote back down from 0.001%, which would violate expectations that we had set.

I'm willing to work with you guys on this, but I'm very nervous about straying from the 0.00039% value that I've repeated so many times. I don't think it would be right to adjust those expectations.

Sounds good to me. I think it is fine to stick to that original number becasue the investors still have the same value for their investment. I believe you guys will make sure that the project will be competitive.

[Vega]

I'm willing to work with you guys on this, but I'm very nervous about straying from the 0.00039% value that I've repeated so many times. I don't think it would be right to adjust those expectations.

I respect your decision to stick to this, however you have to acknowledge that the plan and prospect of the service has changes drastically since this percentage been set. The increase of the fee to 10% reflects this.
How about instead of increasing the percentage of the individual sianotes value, you give additional sianotes to holders? For every sianote you transfer an additional of 0.2-1 sianotes for the holders?

[msin]

I think raising the fee to that amount is a mistake, it's too high.  I would say 5% max. 

[Taek]

I think raising the fee to that amount is a mistake, it's too high.  I would say 5% max. 

Noted. The beta should give us a much better idea of what a reasonable value is. 10% is not a value that has been set in stone.

[Lordoftherigs]

Most importantly though, I feel very obligated to stick to the 0.00039% value that I've repeated many times. I've encouraged everyone to make decisions around that number and not any other number. Changing that number means we're altering what we told people to expect when they were making their investment decisions. People who chose not to buy may have decided to buy in the event that each sianote would actually be worth more than 0.00039%.  Furthermore, if we create a precedent for changing this value, you lose the security of knowing that it won't decrease. If we decide later that a 10% fee is actually bad (because Storj, for example, ends up being 10% cheaper) and we need to reduce it, do we also drop how much a sianote is worth? How will that affect people who have been investing in the sianote?

I realize that changing the total fee is a big move, but I am trying to do the right thing. If it ends up being a major source of contention, and you guys feel universally that you are being cheated because we raised our fee without including you, all that will happen is we reduce the fee back to the original 3.9%. I feel that this would hurt Sia overall because it affects the number of people that we can hire, that affects the quality of the product. But I would much rather set the total fee at 3.9% than set a precedent of adjusting the income provided by the sianote, even if the first adjustment was upwards. I don't  think that I would ever feel comfortable adjusting the number down from a previous amount (if I did decide to set it at 0.001%, I would never lower it), and that would back us into a corner if we suddenly realized that the fee was too high, because either we have to fully take the hit ourselves (to isolate our crowdfunders) or we have to lower the value of the sianote back down from 0.001%, which would violate expectations that we had set.

I'm willing to work with you guys on this, but I'm very nervous about straying from the 0.00039% value that I've repeated so many times. I don't think it would be right to adjust those expectations.

Sounds good to me. I think it is fine to stick to that original number becasue the investors still have the same value for their investment. I believe you guys will make sure that the project will be competitive.

+1 the original number needs to be maintained. Neither increased or decreased.