Ebay/Paypal's ridiculous fees

[bitsmichel]

yes, those fees are quite high. This is not a technical problem, but a greed problem. Luckily we dont need them 

PayPal is one of life's biggest scams. They can also block you for no valid reaso

This is very true.

[1714018576]

1714018576

[1714018576]

1714018576

[ranlo]

yes, those fees are quite high. This is not a technical problem, but a greed problem. Luckily we dont need them 

PayPal is one of life's biggest scams. They can also block you for no valid reaso

This is very true.

No sites as of now are even close to being as widely accepted as eBay and PayPal. Until this happens, they will still be prominent.

[Cryptopher]

yes, those fees are quite high. This is not a technical problem, but a greed problem. Luckily we dont need them 

PayPal is one of life's biggest scams. They can also block you for no valid reaso

This is very true.

No sites as of now are even close to being as widely accepted as eBay and PayPal. Until this happens, they will still be prominent.

Without a doubt. One of the great things about eBay and PayPal is their safe transaction environment. Okay, security breaches aside, when it comes to their services they really protect the buyer, perhaps a little too much which can ultimately cost the seller, even if they have taken many measures to protect themselves.

There is definitely space for crypto auction sites to grow, but I think that these marketplaces will likely be escrow-driven, for a while at least.

[ranlo]

yes, those fees are quite high. This is not a technical problem, but a greed problem. Luckily we dont need them 

PayPal is one of life's biggest scams. They can also block you for no valid reaso

This is very true.

No sites as of now are even close to being as widely accepted as eBay and PayPal. Until this happens, they will still be prominent.

Without a doubt. One of the great things about eBay and PayPal is their safe transaction environment. Okay, security breaches aside, when it comes to their services they really protect the buyer, perhaps a little too much which can ultimately cost the seller, even if they have taken many measures to protect themselves.

There is definitely space for crypto auction sites to grow, but I think that these marketplaces will likely be escrow-driven, for a while at least.

I'd also like to add in that while they protect the buyer, this is generally the way businesses work. "The customer is always right." Any B&M store that cares about their customers would take a loss just to keep your business. PayPal just extends that to the online marketplace.

[Cryptopher]

yes, those fees are quite high. This is not a technical problem, but a greed problem. Luckily we dont need them 

PayPal is one of life's biggest scams. They can also block you for no valid reaso

This is very true.

No sites as of now are even close to being as widely accepted as eBay and PayPal. Until this happens, they will still be prominent.

Without a doubt. One of the great things about eBay and PayPal is their safe transaction environment. Okay, security breaches aside, when it comes to their services they really protect the buyer, perhaps a little too much which can ultimately cost the seller, even if they have taken many measures to protect themselves.

There is definitely space for crypto auction sites to grow, but I think that these marketplaces will likely be escrow-driven, for a while at least.

I'd also like to add in that while they protect the buyer, this is generally the way businesses work. "The customer is always right." Any B&M store that cares about their customers would take a loss just to keep your business. PayPal just extends that to the online marketplace.

This is true, brick and mortar stores are all about their brand and service, in hope of securing repeat business and recommendations to others.

With eBay, the majority of sellers are individuals who cannot afford to take the hit if something goes wrong. eBay/PayPal don't always take the hit themselves, I mean sure they might front the refund to the buyer but they will usually slap the cost onto the seller.

I've heard of instances in the past where a merchant (in this case an established eBay seller) contacted a buyer to offer a partial refund in order to remove the negative feedback they left for something that they were dissatisfied with. That's just like a B&M store, that's where reputation, especially one that is so visible through feedback) trumps the margin on a single transaction.

Guess it all comes down to the circumstances.

[ranlo]

This is true, brick and mortar stores are all about their brand and service, in hope of securing repeat business and recommendations to others.

With eBay, the majority of sellers are individuals who cannot afford to take the hit if something goes wrong. eBay/PayPal don't always take the hit themselves, I mean sure they might front the refund to the buyer but they will usually slap the cost onto the seller.

I've heard of instances in the past where a merchant (in this case an established eBay seller) contacted a buyer to offer a partial refund in order to remove the negative feedback they left for something that they were dissatisfied with. That's just like a B&M store, that's where reputation, especially one that is so visible through feedback) trumps the margin on a single transaction.

Guess it all comes down to the circumstances.

I think it's pretty hard to find a balance, and especially when PayPal is effectively acting as an escrow. There have been times where I have issues with orders and the question is who is telling the truth, me or the seller? He could mail a box of bricks, but how do I prove I didn't swap out the original item with bricks? He could mail a broken item, but how do I prove that? Conversely, always taking the seller's side causes problems because then buyers lose trust.

It's a tough situation!

[Cryptopher]

This is true, brick and mortar stores are all about their brand and service, in hope of securing repeat business and recommendations to others.

With eBay, the majority of sellers are individuals who cannot afford to take the hit if something goes wrong. eBay/PayPal don't always take the hit themselves, I mean sure they might front the refund to the buyer but they will usually slap the cost onto the seller.

I've heard of instances in the past where a merchant (in this case an established eBay seller) contacted a buyer to offer a partial refund in order to remove the negative feedback they left for something that they were dissatisfied with. That's just like a B&M store, that's where reputation, especially one that is so visible through feedback) trumps the margin on a single transaction.

Guess it all comes down to the circumstances.

I think it's pretty hard to find a balance, and especially when PayPal is effectively acting as an escrow. There have been times where I have issues with orders and the question is who is telling the truth, me or the seller? He could mail a box of bricks, but how do I prove I didn't swap out the original item with bricks? He could mail a broken item, but how do I prove that? Conversely, always taking the seller's side causes problems because then buyers lose trust.

It's a tough situation!

Definitely, you're right about eBay/PayPal being an escrow of sorts. They take on a calculating financial risk and act as judge and jury when it comes to disputes, usually favouring the buyer, coming back to that point about a company taking a hit to keep people sweet and maintain their standards.

Of course, that's where all the fees come from. We pay the fees ultimately for the protection, a bit like insurance but on a transactional level. With bitcoin trades we try to simulate that process using a trusted escrow - one which they both agree on (could still get screwed over by the escrow lol).

[Duetschpire]

This is true, brick and mortar stores are all about their brand and service, in hope of securing repeat business and recommendations to others.

With eBay, the majority of sellers are individuals who cannot afford to take the hit if something goes wrong. eBay/PayPal don't always take the hit themselves, I mean sure they might front the refund to the buyer but they will usually slap the cost onto the seller.

I've heard of instances in the past where a merchant (in this case an established eBay seller) contacted a buyer to offer a partial refund in order to remove the negative feedback they left for something that they were dissatisfied with. That's just like a B&M store, that's where reputation, especially one that is so visible through feedback) trumps the margin on a single transaction.

Guess it all comes down to the circumstances.

I think it's pretty hard to find a balance, and especially when PayPal is effectively acting as an escrow. There have been times where I have issues with orders and the question is who is telling the truth, me or the seller? He could mail a box of bricks, but how do I prove I didn't swap out the original item with bricks? He could mail a broken item, but how do I prove that? Conversely, always taking the seller's side causes problems because then buyers lose trust.

It's a tough situation!

Definitely, you're right about eBay/PayPal being an escrow of sorts. They take on a calculating financial risk and act as judge and jury when it comes to disputes, usually favouring the buyer, coming back to that point about a company taking a hit to keep people sweet and maintain their standards.

Of course, that's where all the fees come from. We pay the fees ultimately for the protection, a bit like insurance but on a transactional level. With bitcoin trades we try to simulate that process using a trusted escrow - one which they both agree on (could still get screwed over by the escrow lol).

Ironically, I woke up to read the escrow discussion after spending 3 hours last night over the from Australia to the US talking to Office Depot about a gift card dispute.

Unlike PayPal, which I believe their system is somehow great given the position they're in right now, we don't only gather facts from sellers and buyers and act upon them. Since the Bitcoin sphere is so thin and reputation driven, and as an escrow provider, we need to protect our reputation and make sure we're doing everything right to the best of our ability. This means if we can contact a third party for gather hard evidence we definitely will before making any decisions.

This is a very regular reoccurring case, we had an issue before with a CEX.io code sold on the site. Seller was selling 100Gh/s and the buyer claimed to have received 0.1Gh/s. We contacted CEX.io who were extremely helpful and confirmed the buyer's side of the story that the code was indeed for a 0.1Gh.

Office Depot said they have escalated to the correct team who will get back to us within 48, I hope they will be as helpful as other services.

On another note, our main issues are actually PayPal for Bitcoin sales. Regardless how hard we try to educate our users, some tend to be over trusting and don't see the possibility of scam attempts. We try our best to help those who do get charge backs after releasing escrow (very small %), but PayPal simply don't wanna hear about it when it comes to Bitcoin.

I know you might have read this 100 times already, but please Do Not be over trusting. Whether on CryptoThrift or any other place where you can spend your Bitcoins. Try to buy from highly reputable sellers, ALWAYS use escrow where available, NEVER release escrow before receiving and inspecting your item. And if you want to be super cautious, take a short video while opening a parcel or redeeming a gift card, it will always come in handy should there be any dispute.

Bitcoin Safely!

[jcoin200]

That's really good to know about cryptothrift, I was a little hesitant about listing higher value items in case of a dispute, and not knowing how your process went.

I recently had a dispute on eBay where they admitted to me they don't even look at any screenshots or documents either party uploads to the resolution center. There said those are just for the buyer and sellers information so they will resolve an issue on their own.  They seem to arbitrarily decide most cases, usually in favor of the buyer. And if a buyer happens to send you back a return package with nothing in it, they won't care even if you take a video showing that they are scamming you.

[ranlo]

That's really good to know about cryptothrift, I was a little hesitant about listing higher value items in case of a dispute, and not knowing how your process went.

I recently had a dispute on eBay where they admitted to me they don't even look at any screenshots or documents either party uploads to the resolution center. There said those are just for the buyer and sellers information so they will resolve an issue on their own.  They seem to arbitrarily decide most cases, usually in favor of the buyer. And if a buyer happens to send you back a return package with nothing in it, they won't care even if you take a video showing that they are scamming you.

This is pretty weird. My experience was different. I made a purchase and the guy I bought from ended up not sending. He ended up later being in jail for unrelated matters, but that's beside the point. PayPal wouldn't even assist me; they forced me to pursue it all through my credit card company, using PayPal as an intermediary between my CC company and the other party.

[g4c]

I sold a few things on eBay the other day for the first time in a while and checking my fees I noticed on one item they'd actually charged me a final value fee of £0.24 on postage! When did they start doing that?

Probably over a year ago I'd say.  They started giving free listings (instead of charging you a fee even if the item doesnt sell) but now charge their 10% final value fee on shipping charges as well.  I know its backwards that they can do that, but they do.  Like I said earlier, if you sell a lot, look into an eBay store. You get much better final value fees, and subscribing can pay for itself even if you only end up selling 1 larger value item a month.

Putting a fee on shipping was a response to sellers listing things for 99C with $30 shipping in order to circumvent fees. This practice went on for years.

[g4c]

...
Many out in the wild very likely and falsely believe the price of Bitcoin per bitcoin is too costly. So sad. So very sad for them
...

I like to think I'm as objective as you can get and strive to be machine like in my thinking. But nonetheless, the silly monkey in me thinks bitcoins are too expensive. I mean I know they are divisible down to one satoshi, but that unit's too far the other way.

The core animal brain likes to think in "real life" tangible units, 1 apple carried in one pocket for one snack.

You tell a new person about bitcoin, when they find out just one costs $500 they think "holy shit I cant even afford one right now". People like to "own" at least one of something.

It's completely irrelevant from an engineering perspective, but as these tokens are designed for use by apes; psychology is very important.

A new fraction with a new name is needed.

[ranlo]

...
Many out in the wild very likely and falsely believe the price of Bitcoin per bitcoin is too costly. So sad. So very sad for them
...

I like to think I'm as objective as you can get and strive to be machine like in my thinking. But nonetheless, the silly monkey in me thinks bitcoins are too expensive. I mean I know they are divisible down to one satoshi, but that unit's too far the other way.

The core animal brain likes to think in "real life" tangible units, 1 apple carried in one pocket for one snack.

You tell a new person about bitcoin, when they find out just one costs $500 they think "holy shit I cant even afford one right now". People like to "own" at least one of something.

It's completely irrelevant from an engineering perspective, but as these tokens are designed for use by apes; psychology is very important.

A new fraction with a new name is needed.

Your last line hit on exactly what I was going to say. If we were to use mBTC or uBTC (which is what they are pushing for, as a "bit") as the base measurement, then a "coin" in that sense would be either 50 cents or 0.05 cents. This makes it much more affordable, despite being the same thing.

[nkocevar]

This is a perfect example of why bitcoin should advance as a payment system. I understand that companies need to make money... but really!?!

[TheButterZone]

List an item in http://www.ebay.com/sch/Test-Auctions-/14112/i.html - pay no fees.

[nkocevar]

List an item in http://www.ebay.com/sch/Test-Auctions-/14112/i.html - pay no fees.

But inst that against the terms and conditions... and also i browsed around and found no "real" items. Pretty sure I wouldnt trust that... but nice try xD

[ranlo]

This is a perfect example of why bitcoin should advance as a payment system. I understand that companies need to make money... but really!?!

This is never going to happen until it's easy enough for grandmas to understand the technology and utilize it. The amount of distrust there is is holding it back.

[nkocevar]

This is a perfect example of why bitcoin should advance as a payment system. I understand that companies need to make money... but really!?!

This is never going to happen until it's easy enough for grandmas to understand the technology and utilize it. The amount of distrust there is is holding it back.

People didnt know at first how to use banks and credit cards, but they will learn in time... I may be delusional but I can see grandma operating a bitcoin wallet in 10 yearsish

[ranlo]

This is a perfect example of why bitcoin should advance as a payment system. I understand that companies need to make money... but really!?!

This is never going to happen until it's easy enough for grandmas to understand the technology and utilize it. The amount of distrust there is is holding it back.

People didnt know at first how to use banks and credit cards, but they will learn in time... I may be delusional but I can see grandma operating a bitcoin wallet in 10 yearsish

If people can create the technology in such a way that no specifics are really wanted, I think this is doable. The issue is most people that hear about Bitcoin want to know how it works, why it's safe, etc. And most of them don't have any comprehension as to what's going on so it leads to more confusion and ultimately denial of the service.

Credit cards are at a stage where it's so simple you just swipe your card, sign (if needed) and pay the bill. If we could get Bitcoin to that same level, I think it'd help.

[nkocevar]

This is a perfect example of why bitcoin should advance as a payment system. I understand that companies need to make money... but really!?!

This is never going to happen until it's easy enough for grandmas to understand the technology and utilize it. The amount of distrust there is is holding it back.

People didnt know at first how to use banks and credit cards, but they will learn in time... I may be delusional but I can see grandma operating a bitcoin wallet in 10 yearsish

If people can create the technology in such a way that no specifics are really wanted, I think this is doable. The issue is most people that hear about Bitcoin want to know how it works, why it's safe, etc. And most of them don't have any comprehension as to what's going on so it leads to more confusion and ultimately denial of the service.

Credit cards are at a stage where it's so simple you just swipe your card, sign (if needed) and pay the bill. If we could get Bitcoin to that same level, I think it'd help.

QR codes are making bitcoins more and more like credit cards. Now you just scan the code with your phone and voila, you can send a payment to a specific address!