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Author Topic: That isn't how the banking system works!!  (Read 1083 times)
spazzdla
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May 08, 2014, 02:04:08 PM
Last edit: May 08, 2014, 02:35:50 PM by spazzdla
 #1

I've been dealing with money way longer than you and I know there is no such thing as fractional banking.  Also what do you mean by Fiat?  Like the car?  What does a car have to do with our banking system?


....................... I hate people...............


*EDIT* ... This was a convo with me and another person and this was their argument against me for claiming Fractional banking was terrible....

I figured anyone that was on this board knows what Fiat means so it would just obv this was someone talking to me.. bad assumption.

I do numbers, blah english.
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franky1
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May 08, 2014, 02:08:53 PM
 #2

i agree you do seem to hate people, which explains your trolling and also lack of knowledge of banking systems due to not interacting with people outside your basement.

have a nice day

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
spazzdla
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May 08, 2014, 02:20:47 PM
 #3

i agree you do seem to hate people, which explains your trolling and also lack of knowledge of banking systems due to not interacting with people outside your basement.

have a nice day

Yes... I was asking if Fiat was a car...  Like I said.. I hate people... even more now.  Why does everyone always assume they are some sort of brilliant god compared to all other people.. You are not.  It's so hard to find someone that can get past their bias and assumptions.. *sigh*
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May 08, 2014, 02:24:25 PM
 #4

i agree you do seem to hate people, which explains your trolling and also lack of knowledge of banking systems due to not interacting with people outside your basement.

have a nice day

Yes... I was asking if Fiat was a car...  Like I said.. I hate people... even more now.  Why does everyone always assume they are some sort of brilliant god compared to all other people.. You are not.

I've been dealing with money way longer than you

So does that make you a 'brilliant god'?  

Dude, you don't even know what 'fiat' is.  You've been dealing with money by paying $15 per month to your mother for rent in the basement.  You don't know a thing about money.  If you'd like to learn more about money and 'fiat' try this: www.google.com.  Come back in 25 years.

Also what do you mean by Fiat?
Everyone knows that: "Fix It Again Tony!"

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spazzdla
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May 08, 2014, 02:28:14 PM
Last edit: May 08, 2014, 02:41:29 PM by spazzdla
 #5

They were talking TO ME.............  Talking about how I was wrong about fractional banking................  

I have zero debts,
More gold and silver holdings than anyone I know,
More water and food holdings than anyone I know,
Alas I know some big crypto players.. but do hold a large amount,
I do also have large fiat holdings as I haven't lost total faith yet.
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May 08, 2014, 02:30:17 PM
 #6

How can you deal with money for so long and not know what fiat is?   Huh

Fiat money's been around since 11 century China, Fiat-Chrysler the car (Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino) has been around for much less than that.

Unless OP is trolling, then well played.
spazzdla
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May 08, 2014, 02:32:39 PM
 #7

How can you deal with money for so long and not know what fiat is?   Huh

Fiat money's been around since 11 century China, Fiat-Chrysler the car (Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino) has been around for much less than that.

Unless OP is trolling, then well played.

It was a poorly written bitch post....  I know exactly what fiat is and think fractional banking should be Illegal.  IMO only full reserve banking should exist but w/e.  I have these convos and arguments with many people that call ME A LIAR for claming the fractional banking system exists.
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May 08, 2014, 02:34:51 PM
 #8

How can you deal with money for so long and not know what fiat is?   Huh

Fiat money's been around since 11 century China, Fiat-Chrysler the car (Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino) has been around for much less than that.

Unless OP is trolling, then well played.
Maybe he is 90 than he would be dealing with Money, way longer than other persons in this Forum Wink

But seriously: How Long I have dealt with anything, doesn't say much about my knowledge about anything.

I am dealing withm companies(worked for them, buyed stuff from them) for many years, so I am an expert on companies.

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May 08, 2014, 03:00:19 PM
 #9

How can you deal with money for so long and not know what fiat is?   Huh

Fiat money's been around since 11 century China, Fiat-Chrysler the car (Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino) has been around for much less than that.

Unless OP is trolling, then well played.

It was a poorly written bitch post....  I know exactly what fiat is and think fractional banking should be Illegal.  IMO only full reserve banking should exist but w/e.  I have these convos and arguments with many people that call ME A LIAR for claming the fractional banking system exists.

you do realise that bitcoin is not full reserve either, right?

there is not $6billion in bank notes set aside to cover all 13mill bitcoins at todays price.

the bitcoin valuation is only based on maybe 10k-100k coins sat on market orders on different exchanges. far far far far less total then 13million.

thus if everyone wanted to cashout at the same time.. they would all not get over $400 each. FIAT banking is the same.

with all the FIAT on banks databases, there is not enough bank notes to cover this.. there are only about 10% of bank notes vs database bank dollars.

there are not bank notes to cover all 171,000 tonnes of gold so if everyone wanted to cash out their gold, they would not get a fair return either

ill leave you to theorise those facts and tell me of one single currency / asset valuation that does have a fixed backing that wont collapse if everyone sold out at the same time

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
spazzdla
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May 08, 2014, 03:05:56 PM
 #10

I can not loan you bitcoins I do not have.

The FED/Banks can loan you money they do not have.


Anything would collapse if everyone decided it was going to be worthless and dumped it...  That isn't me loaning out something I don't have.
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May 08, 2014, 03:21:37 PM
 #11

you do realise that bitcoin is not full reserve either, right?

there is not $6billion in bank notes set aside to cover all 13mill bitcoins at todays price.

the bitcoin valuation is only based on maybe 10k-100k coins sat on market orders on different exchanges. far far far far less total then 13million.

thus if everyone wanted to cashout at the same time.. they would all not get over $400 each. FIAT banking is the same.

with all the FIAT on banks databases, there is not enough bank notes to cover this.. there are only about 10% of bank notes vs database bank dollars.

there are not bank notes to cover all 171,000 tonnes of gold so if everyone wanted to cash out their gold, they would not get a fair return either

ill leave you to theorise those facts and tell me of one single currency / asset valuation that does have a fixed backing that wont collapse if everyone sold out at the same time
Not sure what you are getting at here, bitcoin is absolutely "full reserve". What does full/fractional reserves have to do with the ability to sell 100% of an asset for the market cap?
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May 08, 2014, 04:01:41 PM
Last edit: May 08, 2014, 04:21:32 PM by franky1
 #12

you do realise that bitcoin is not full reserve either, right?

there is not $6billion in bank notes set aside to cover all 13mill bitcoins at todays price.

the bitcoin valuation is only based on maybe 10k-100k coins sat on market orders on different exchanges. far far far far less total then 13million.

thus if everyone wanted to cashout at the same time.. they would all not get over $400 each. FIAT banking is the same.

with all the FIAT on banks databases, there is not enough bank notes to cover this.. there are only about 10% of bank notes vs database bank dollars.

there are not bank notes to cover all 171,000 tonnes of gold so if everyone wanted to cash out their gold, they would not get a fair return either

ill leave you to theorise those facts and tell me of one single currency / asset valuation that does have a fixed backing that wont collapse if everyone sold out at the same time
Not sure what you are getting at here, bitcoin is absolutely "full reserve". What does full/fractional reserves have to do with the ability to sell 100% of an asset for the market cap?

i can sell you 100% of a bank note and a bank note is 100% of a bank note. using bitcoins from the QT client is giving 100% of a bitcoin as 100% of a bitcoin.

but exchanges.. mtgox has proven that while everyone believed that they were playing with actual bitcoins on the exchange.. karpales was secretly letting people play with 'fake bitcoins' which he only kept maybe 10% in a reserve (hot wallet). but thats only explaining a small insignificant fraction of what i am truly saying.

bitcoin (all 13million of them) are not worth over $400 each, there is not enough to cover each bitcoin with a matching dollar. bitcoin is NOT backed by $6billion sat in storage.

bank balances are not backed by a matching amount of bank notes sat in storage

gold is not backed by a matching amount of bank notes sat in storage.

so if you work it out lets say only 1mill bitcoins are on a exchange orderboard at one time to give a 'valuation' of $400 then that means that there must be well under $30 of actual bank balances to cater to all 13mill (400/13=actual bank balace/total bitcoins in existance)

now we all know that bank notes are roughly only 10% of bank balances.

thus if EVERYONE cashed out bitcoin and wanted an actual BANK NOTE, then that works out as only having enough bank notes (10% of bank balance for each bitcoin to be fairly exchanged at 3x $1 bank notes or less.

imagine it this way. if everyone had lets say $50k life savings in their bank account. and everyone wanted to convert to bank notes. there would only be enough bank notes to give people $5k in bank notes each.

thus bitcoins true bank note value is 3 dollar bills

this is why bitcoin is classed as 'speculated' and the value is 'volatile' because there is not $6bill of $1bank notes to cover the market cap valuation.

inshort. not every bitcoin on an exchange has an actual matched bitcoin held in a hot wallet to back it*3. so to avoid bitcoin fractional banking to make 'interest' and 'profit' dont trade on exchanges *1. and dont play the fiat fractional banking game by cashing out to FIAT and then to bank notes *2. as the value of your bitcoin sell will leave you with far far less then you think (if everyone done it at the same time)

the best way to avoid fractional reserve tricks is to barter peer-to-peer with actual holdings and no middlemen gambling in the middle

i say to allow you to get your thinking cap on about the theory of this (as said in my last post)
and its linked to another discussion of someone trying to quantify bitcoins true dollar value.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=599794

*1 this is why the community ultimately wants ALL exchanges to publicly display both hot and cold wallets to eradicate bitcoin fraction reserves

*2 this is why banks have ATM limits and daily withdrawal to bank loan limits at the bank teller desk. because they dont have enough bank notes to cover all balances.

*3 this is why mtgox and other exchanges limit bitcoin daily withdrawals, because they dont have enough bitcoin to cover all balances.

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
Keyser Soze
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May 08, 2014, 04:33:19 PM
 #13

i can sell you 100% of a bank note and a bank note is 100% of a bank note. using bitcoins from the QT client is giving bitcoin as bitcoin.

but exchanges.. mtgox has proven that while everyone believed that they were playing with actual bitcoins on th exchange.. karpales was secretly letting people play with 'fake bitcoins' which he only kept maybe 10% in a reserve (hot wallet). but thats only explaining a small insignificant fraction of what i am truly saying.

bitcoin (all 13million of them) are not worth over $400 each, there is not enough to cover each bitcoin with a matching dollar. bitcoin is NOT backed by $6billion sat in storage.

bank balances are not backed by a matching amount of bank notes sat in storage

gold is not backed by a matching amount of bank notes sat in storage.

so if you work it out lets say only 1mill bitcoins are on a exchange orderboard at one time to give a 'valuation' of $400 then that means that there must be well under $30 of actual bank balances to cater to all 13mill (400/13=actual bank balace/total bitcoins in existance)

now we all know that bank notes are roughly only 10% of bank balances.

thus if EVERYONE cashed out bitcoin and wanted an actual BANK NOTE, then that works out as only having enough bank notes (10% of bank balance for each bitcoin to be fairly exchanged at 3x $1 bank notes or less

this is why bitcoin is classed as 'speculated' and the value is 'volatile' because there is not $6bill of $1bank notes to cover the market cap valuation.

i say to allow you to get your thinking cap on about the theory of this (as said in my last post)
and its linked to another discussion of someone trying to quantify bitcoins true dollar value.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=599794
I suppose if you include IOUs, then yes, there can be a fractional reserve. The problem is that these bitcoin IOUs are not equivalent to the original.

Of course bitcoin is not backed by $6bn sitting around. Market capitalization has nothing to do with "backing" of an asset.
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May 08, 2014, 04:40:12 PM
 #14

If everyone tried to cash out his bitcoins in dollars, it would drive the price way down. So the whole fractional reserve idea with regard to bitcoins is either way more complicated or way simpler.

If everyone tried to cash out his savings account in cash - run on the banks - we would come to see that the true value of the dollar is ridiculously low. I mean, try cashing out your dollars for dollars when there is inflation in the mix. The longer you hold dollars, the less value they have.

Bitcoin is the far greater value.

Smiley

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May 08, 2014, 04:55:07 PM
 #15

*1 this is why the community ultimately wants ALL exchanges to publicly display both hot and cold wallets to eradicate bitcoin fraction reserves

*2 this is why banks have ATM limits and daily withdrawal to bank loan limits at the bank teller desk. because they dont have enough bank notes to cover all balances.

*3 this is why mtgox and other exchanges limit bitcoin daily withdrawals, because they dont have enough bitcoin to cover all balances.
1: Totally agree, bitcoin exchanges are not in the lending business and have no reason for fraction reserves. Maintaining less then 100% of client assets would be fraud.
2: Can't speak for other countries, but within the US generally ATM limits have more to do with limiting fraud risk then anything. In the US, you should also be able to withdrawal large amounts of cash (with prior notice) from a bank without too much of an issue. Worked in banking for 5 years and I've seen cash withdrawals as large as mid 6 figures.
3: Does Bitstamp or BTC-e have daily withdrawal limits? If so, I would imagine (hope) it would be for security purposes.
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May 09, 2014, 12:02:54 AM
 #16

*1 this is why the community ultimately wants ALL exchanges to publicly display both hot and cold wallets to eradicate bitcoin fraction reserves

*2 this is why banks have ATM limits and daily withdrawal to bank loan limits at the bank teller desk. because they dont have enough bank notes to cover all balances.

*3 this is why mtgox and other exchanges limit bitcoin daily withdrawals, because they dont have enough bitcoin to cover all balances.
1: Totally agree, bitcoin exchanges are not in the lending business and have no reason for fraction reserves. Maintaining less then 100% of client assets would be fraud.
2: Can't speak for other countries, but within the US generally ATM limits have more to do with limiting fraud risk then anything. In the US, you should also be able to withdrawal large amounts of cash (with prior notice) from a bank without too much of an issue. Worked in banking for 5 years and I've seen cash withdrawals as large as mid 6 figures.
3: Does Bitstamp or BTC-e have daily withdrawal limits? If so, I would imagine (hope) it would be for security purposes.

ref 3. no service should have daily limits on bitcoins. if you want your bitcoins then you should get them. there is no reason to have a no limits deposit and then have a limited withdrawal. there are many prove concepts out there that do not require hot wallets. that all funds are stored away from the webserver and are instructed to pay out. where the non-webserver, validates the customers login session and balance and trade history to ensure its a real request of actual owned funds. and sends them out in minutes.

there is no need to withhold bitcoins from people especially using the "we dont have bitcoins readily available". any service that has hot wallets on the webserver has no clue about security best practices and i would be wary about using them for any substantial amount. especially as it asks more questions about can they even afford more then one server, do they even know how to code systems that double check transactions. or are they lazy coders that just have a easy to exploit hot wallet that auto sends transactions without doublechecks. (EG mtgox malleability: handed out more coins purely because they didnt doublecheck)

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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May 10, 2014, 12:11:52 PM
 #17

How can you deal with money for so long and not know what fiat is?   Huh

Fiat money's been around since 11 century China, Fiat-Chrysler the car (Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino) has been around for much less than that.

Unless OP is trolling, then well played.

It was a poorly written bitch post....  I know exactly what fiat is and think fractional banking should be Illegal.  IMO only full reserve banking should exist but w/e.  I have these convos and arguments with many people that call ME A LIAR for claming the fractional banking system exists.

you do realise that bitcoin is not full reserve either, right?

there is not $6billion in bank notes set aside to cover all 13mill bitcoins at todays price.

the bitcoin valuation is only based on maybe 10k-100k coins sat on market orders on different exchanges. far far far far less total then 13million.

thus if everyone wanted to cashout at the same time.. they would all not get over $400 each. FIAT banking is the same.

with all the FIAT on banks databases, there is not enough bank notes to cover this.. there are only about 10% of bank notes vs database bank dollars.

there are not bank notes to cover all 171,000 tonnes of gold so if everyone wanted to cash out their gold, they would not get a fair return either

ill leave you to theorise those facts and tell me of one single currency / asset valuation that does have a fixed backing that wont collapse if everyone sold out at the same time

Bitcoin isn't backed by fiat currency i.e. an exchange doesn't issue Bitcoins. The network issues Bitcoins as a reward to miners for processing transactions. Bitcoin is backed by SHA256 encryption and the most powerful computer network on earth.

Bitcoins are redeemable in whatever the computer nerds and geeks are willing to trade for them and, there is always 100% of BTC vs blockchain database BTC available.

If everybody ran to the nerds 'n' geeks and sold out all their Bitcoins at the same time for goods and services it wouldn't exactly collapse Bitcoin.
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May 10, 2014, 02:32:01 PM
 #18

it's not a simple system,you need to write a book to explain it.
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