[ANN][VRC] VeriCoin Proof of Stake-Time Currency | New Roadmap Released

[Alphi]

yes exactly what you said. now imagine not some 2000 btc but 1 million btc and more, so we have the right scale to compare to the vrc theft.

why should I imagine that?

51% hashing power in a PoW system does not give you the power to take coins from anyone.

you cannot mine 1 million btc with stolen hashing power without people noticing well before you get there. do you know of some kind of magic spell to make the entire world fall asleep for some 6 months and not notice their miners aren't paying out ? because I sure don't.

even with 51% of all Vericoins which uses PoS you cannot take coins directly from people.

people gave their coins to mintpal. That is how the hacker was able to steal them.

if people were stupid enough to put 1 million BTC into an exchange where it could be hacked....*ahem*  mt gox... then that should be their problem not the problem of the payment network.

the mintpal/vericoin hack only became a problem for the vericoin devs because it would have opened pandoras box.
you just cannot let anyone control 30% of the coin supply of any coin (coin supply is not hashing power) and expect the network to function properly.. especially when those coins are stolen.

mintpal claims they weren't staking but what if they were? and what if another exchange is staking their pos coins using hot wallets.... this could just be the tip of the iceberg.

[1713572323]

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[phzi]

What you and many others fail to understand, (or more believably use as excuse to FUD) is the fact that not rolling back would exactly lead to the situation in where protocol would be exploited.

Therefore same situation.

Eth.

What you obviously don't understand:
Did VRC fix the protocol?  No...  VRC is still vulnerable to exactly the same majority holder attack. 

This is why Proof of Share coins are inherently inferior.

VRC cannot fix the flaw, because it's built into the protocol. The coin is permanently flawed.

[criptix]

yes exactly what you said. now imagine not some 2000 btc but 1 million btc and more, so we have the right scale to compare to the vrc theft.

why should I imagine that?

51% hashing power in a PoW system does not give you the power to take coins from anyone.

you cannot mine 1 million btc with stolen hashing power without people noticing well before you get there. do you know of some kind of magic spell to make the entire world fall asleep for some 6 months and not notice their miners aren't paying out ? because I sure don't.

even with 51% of all Vericoins which uses PoS you cannot take coins from people.

people gave their coins to mintpal that is how the hacker was able to steal them.

if people were stupid enough to put 1 million BTC into an exchange where it could be hacked....*ahem*  mt gox... then that should be their problem not the problem of the payment network.

the vericoin hack only became a problem for the vericoin devs because it would have opened pandoras box.
you just cannot let anyone control 30% of the coin supply of any coin (coin supply is not hashing power) and expect the network to function properly.. especially when those coins are stolen.

i dont think you understood me.

ok one more time for you:

1. a great amount of bitcoins get stolen > 1 million by hacker

2. same hacker gets control over big mining pools, gets control over bitcoin network because 35%-51+% hashpower

3. double spends the amount of stolen bitcoins

4. ?



/edit

coin supply is in fact pos hashing power...

[jrich76]

A lot of the action in altcoin seems fear based.

The devs acted without fear of public crticism. They are also the devs not scared to show their faces.

I say they have the balls to get the job done whatever comes their way.

I have more faith in crypto than ever after this. I understand the idealists point of view. But thievery is something we have to be able to address in a more constructive way than letting them get away with it. Especially if its within reason, the technology allows it, and in the end, the most important THE COMMUNITY VOTES TO ACCEPT THE CHANGE.

Which is the point that FUDsters conveniently "forget" or "overlook". Had the community been against the fork we would have remained on the old blockchain/wallet and pnosker would have to just go make a new coin, we would have continued, or died, with the current vericoin and all the stolen coins.

As a decentralized community we reached consensus on this decision and went forward with it, no one was forced to upgrade to the new wallet/blockchain and if ONLY the 3 devs wanted to then it would not have happened. Period.

 All the main devs did was provide the technical management to get it done quickly, veri quickly. No one mandated or forced anyone to do anything.

Don't like it, dump your coins and leave. That is a free decentralized market in action, you are free to go and we are free to stay, on a new blockchain, theft free.

If you want to blame, blame the exchange that left 8 million vericoins in a hot wallet staking out of greed.

[gekos]

When will they turn on the power?   I updated my wallet to 1.3.3.0 and it seems to be stuck at block 109654.

[pnosker]

When will they turn on the power?   I updated my wallet to 1.3.3.0 and it seems to be stuck at block 109654.

That is the current block.

[barabbas]

Please don't attack Charlie Lee (coblee). He owns VeriCoin and is family. His criticism is justified.

Well Patrick Charlie Lee can be your god but he is VERY wrong this time around. And by being wrong in "his opinion" he is perpetuating not just the biggest flaw in cryptos but defending that the ostracism from the real world will continue. He lives, by his choosing and his opinions, in the bubble of the underworld or nerds who code, watch massive porn amounts, masturbate frequently and are high or doped most of the time. Yes I know a lot in the crypto community adhere to this short of lifestyle and it won't be me criticizing it -or any other lifestyle chosen by adults-, but the fact of the matter is that in that bubble no people from the outside has either a place nor a minimal interest in joining. It's the people that in the name of some form of self-laws and self-government (all of it BULLSHIT, by the way), not only justify thievery and fraud but promote it and even brag about it. It used to be stealing intellectual property and now it has escalated to stealing plain old fashioned money. And that has to stop, by a minimal progression through some semblance of ethics or, most likely, by real law. And regulation.

Meanwhile he dares to call you selfish because you refused to immolate yourself and your partners, forever, while allowing a thief to profit maybe in the millions of dollars at the expense of investors. That's some peculiar sense of "humor" right there. Why not asking directly for you and your partners to commit suicide because you have made a decision that, HOPEFULLY, will forever change crypto and convert it into something with a real practical use for an economy many times bigger than the nerdy coders now crippling it. Where is Litecoin, by the way, going? All the way to Palookaville, I'd say. Where's VRC? We don't know. But if Mr Boricuaman and his Black Hand don't put it out of business -and it is up to you to not allow that to happen, to a certain extent at least-, it is breaking off, or could be breaking off the pack towards a sensible, close to the real people mainstream assimilation.

So sorry but Mr. Charlie Lee is, to me, one asshole more perpetuating crime in crypto and hindering his progress. Yes, you acted selfishly in the way that it was preserving the coin you created that some asshole had marked for death because of the amazing negligence of MintPal. But you decision also saved the hard earned money of over 600 investors/traders. A whole community that believes in you and your partners and avoided another terrible blow to the perception of digital currencies by the mainstream. You didn't have much choice beyond self-immolation but what that selfish decision has and will accomplish, is nothin g short of remarkable.

Let's just say that from now on, just like it did when you gay put your real names out there, there's a before and after in crypto. Hopefully this will separate the assholes and criminal from the progressive ones that will take crypto currencies forward to reach the goals that the technology allows and NOT the political agendas of pathetic rejects and assorted criminals.

[Alphi]

i dont think you understood me.

ok one more time for you:

1. a great amount of bitcoins get stolen > 1 million by hacker

2. same hacker gets control over big mining pools, gets control over bitcoin network because 35%-51+% hashpower

3. double spends the amount of stolen bitcoins

4. ?



/edit

coin supply is in fact pos hashing power...

if you could in fact manage to steal or borrow 1 million bitcoins and then double spend them on an exchange and transfer them for another coin you wont get any argument from me.. if someone managed to do that it would be catastrophic.
however you're talking 600 million dollars here.. I'm sure someone would notice your double spend attempt.

the point is though that in order to do that to bitcoin you would have to hack 2 places and pull it off before the network could react.
and I would be very very surprised if the network failed to counter your move.
if they did however fail then sure the only other option would be to try and hard fork you out...  which would be a very difficult and costly process in itself given the size of the network.

I agree that would be theoretically possible to do on bitcoin but  given the sheer size of the network and the fact that you have to carry out two successful attacks... it would far less likely than attacking a small PoS coin where you need only hack one place and then you can pretty much use those coins to wreak havoc on the network as many times as you like once you get them.

if such an attack happened on BTC it would probably be cheaper to just hire a small army of mercenaries to hunt you down and make sure everyone who holds the private keys to those stolen coins is eliminated.

but now we are getting well into the realms of pure fantasy lolz.

[EtherCoin]

What you and many others fail to understand, (or more believably use as excuse to FUD) is the fact that not rolling back would exactly lead to the situation in where protocol would be exploited.

Therefore same situation.

Eth.

What you obviously don't understand:
Did VRC fix the protocol?  No...  VRC is still vulnerable to exactly the same majority holder attack. 

This is why Proof of Share coins are inherently inferior.

VRC cannot fix the flaw, because it's built into the protocol. The coin is permanently flawed.

Then ALL POS coins must be considered flawed.

Eth.

[onsightit]

The Cryptocurrency Times' perspective on the Vericoin blockchain rollback. http://www.usacryptocoins.com/fudtimes/uncategorized/vericoin-rolls-back-block-chain-after-attack-on-minptal-community-outraged-by-this-blatantly-centralized-action/

Vericoin rolls back block chain after attack on Minptal, community outraged by this blatantly centralized action

LOLZZZZ, The title itself was all I needed to see to distinguish this from news.

[ofp]

What you and many others fail to understand, (or more believably use as excuse to FUD) is the fact that not rolling back would exactly lead to the situation in where protocol would be exploited.

Therefore same situation.

Eth.

What you obviously don't understand:
Did VRC fix the protocol?  No...  VRC is still vulnerable to exactly the same majority holder attack. 

This is why Proof of Share coins are inherently inferior.

VRC cannot fix the flaw, because it's built into the protocol. The coin is permanently flawed.

This is a wrong conclusion, in my opinion. The problem is not POS protocol. The problem is the scale. A SMALL POS is a problem. A big one is the solution.

[Isokoira]

Ok, so i skipped all the posts from 462 to now.  Did I miss anything besides FUD?  Got the new wallet installed last night, syncs normally and getting all the awesome interest right on schedule.  Waiting for the hangout and thankful for the team and our community.

[Alphi]

What you and many others fail to understand, (or more believably use as excuse to FUD) is the fact that not rolling back would exactly lead to the situation in where protocol would be exploited.

Therefore same situation.

Eth.

What you obviously don't understand:
Did VRC fix the protocol?  No...  VRC is still vulnerable to exactly the same majority holder attack.  

This is why Proof of Share coins are inherently inferior.

VRC cannot fix the flaw, because it's built into the protocol. The coin is permanently flawed.

This is a wrong conclusion, in my opinion. The problem is not POS protocol. The problem is the scale. A SMALL POS is a problem. A big one is the solution.

I agree a larger and more widely decentralized coin would not have to face such a dilema.

PoS is like gravity though it really is a weak force that encourages centralization by rewarding people for hoarding coins.

[criptix]

i dont think you understood me.

ok one more time for you:

1. a great amount of bitcoins get stolen > 1 million by hacker

2. same hacker gets control over big mining pools, gets control over bitcoin network because 35%-51+% hashpower

3. double spends the amount of stolen bitcoins

4. ?



/edit

coin supply is in fact pos hashing power...

if you could in fact manage to steal or borrow 1 million bitcoins and then double spend them on an exchange and transfer them for another coin you wont get any argument from me.. if someone managed to do that it would be catastrophic.
however you're talking 600 million dollars here.. I'm sure someone would notice your double spend attempt.

the point is though that in order to do that to bitcoin you would have to hack 2 places and pull it off before the network could react.
and I would be very very surprised if the network failed to counter your move.
if they did however fail then sure the only other option would be to try and hard fork you out...  which would be a very difficult and costly process in itself given the size of the network.

I agree that would be theoretically possible to do on bitcoin but  given the sheer size of the network and the fact that you have to carry out two successful attacks... it would far less likely than attacking a small PoS coin where you need only hack one place and then you can pretty much use those coins to wreak havoc on the network as many times as you like once you get them.

if such an attack happened on BTC it would probably be cheaper to just hire a small army of mercenaries to hunt you down and make sure everyone who holds the private keys to those stolen coins is eliminated.

but now we are getting well into the realms of pure fantasy lolz.

i agree with you that there would be two hacks involved in this.
but we know for sure that alot of bitcoins were stolen - alone from mt.gox atleast 600.000-700.000 bitcoins.

i definitly dont want that to happen for any coin,especially not bitcoin, but its not too farfetched and if that would happen... - i dont think bitcoiners would disagree to a rollback,fork or whatever you would describe it as

[EtherCoin]

Patrick, do you have any information regarding why MintPal is not enabling VRC markets?

Thx,

Eth.

[buy4crypto]

Please don't attack Charlie Lee (coblee). He owns VeriCoin and is family. His criticism is justified.

Well Patrick Charlie Lee can be your god but he is VERY wrong this time around. And by being wrong in "his opinion" he is perpetuating not just the biggest flaw in cryptos but defending that the ostracism from the real world will continue. He lives, by his choosing and his opinions, in the bubble of the underworld or nerds who code, watch massive porn amounts, masturbate frequently and are high or doped most of the time. Yes I know a lot in the crypto community adhere to this short of lifestyle and it won't be me criticizing it -or any other lifestyle chosen by adults-, but the fact of the matter is that in that bubble no people from the outside has either a place nor a minimal interest in joining. It's the people that in the name of some form of self-laws and self-government (all of it BULLSHIT, by the way), not only justify thievery and fraud but promote it and even brag about it. It used to be stealing intellectual property and now it has escalated to stealing plain old fashioned money. And that has to stop, by a minimal progression through some semblance of ethics or, most likely, by real law. And regulation.

Meanwhile he dares to call you selfish because you refused to immolate yourself and your partners, forever, while allowing a thief to profit maybe in the millions of dollars at the expense of investors. That's some peculiar sense of "humor" right there. Why not asking directly for you and your partners to commit suicide because you have made a decision that, HOPEFULLY, will forever change crypto and convert it into something with a real practical use for an economy many times bigger than the nerdy coders now crippling it. Where is Litecoin, by the way, going? All the way to Palookaville, I'd say. Where's VRC? We don't know. But if Mr Boricuaman and his Black Hand don't put it out of business -and it is up to you to not allow that to happen, to a certain extent at least-, it is breaking off, or could be breaking off the pack towards a sensible, close to the real people mainstream assimilation.

So sorry but Mr. Charlie Lee is, to me, one asshole more perpetuating crime in crypto and hindering his progress. Yes, you acted selfishly in the way that it was preserving the coin you created that some asshole had marked for death because of the amazing negligence of MintPal. But you decision also saved the hard earned money of over 600 investors/traders. A whole community that believes in you and your partners and avoided another terrible blow to the perception of digital currencies by the mainstream. You didn't have much choice beyond self-immolation but what that selfish decision has and will accomplish, is nothin g short of remarkable.

Let's just say that from now on, just like it did when you gay put your real names out there, there's a before and after in crypto. Hopefully this will separate the assholes and criminal from the progressive ones that will take crypto currencies forward to reach the goals that the technology allows and NOT the political agendas of pathetic rejects and assorted criminals.

I agree with everything you said for the first time ever...

Well said.

[criptix]

Please don't attack Charlie Lee (coblee). He owns VeriCoin and is family. His criticism is justified.

Well Patrick Charlie Lee can be your god but he is VERY wrong this time around. And by being wrong in "his opinion" he is perpetuating not just the biggest flaw in cryptos but defending that the ostracism from the real world will continue. He lives, by his choosing and his opinions, in the bubble of the underworld or nerds who code, watch massive porn amounts, masturbate frequently and are high or doped most of the time. Yes I know a lot in the crypto community adhere to this short of lifestyle and it won't be me criticizing it -or any other lifestyle chosen by adults-, but the fact of the matter is that in that bubble no people from the outside has either a place nor a minimal interest in joining. It's the people that in the name of some form of self-laws and self-government (all of it BULLSHIT, by the way), not only justify thievery and fraud but promote it and even brag about it. It used to be stealing intellectual property and now it has escalated to stealing plain old fashioned money. And that has to stop, by a minimal progression through some semblance of ethics or, most likely, by real law. And regulation.

Meanwhile he dares to call you selfish because you refused to immolate yourself and your partners, forever, while allowing a thief to profit maybe in the millions of dollars at the expense of investors. That's some peculiar sense of "humor" right there. Why not asking directly for you and your partners to commit suicide because you have made a decision that, HOPEFULLY, will forever change crypto and convert it into something with a real practical use for an economy many times bigger than the nerdy coders now crippling it. Where is Litecoin, by the way, going? All the way to Palookaville, I'd say. Where's VRC? We don't know. But if Mr Boricuaman and his Black Hand don't put it out of business -and it is up to you to not allow that to happen, to a certain extent at least-, it is breaking off, or could be breaking off the pack towards a sensible, close to the real people mainstream assimilation.

So sorry but Mr. Charlie Lee is, to me, one asshole more perpetuating crime in crypto and hindering his progress. Yes, you acted selfishly in the way that it was preserving the coin you created that some asshole had marked for death because of the amazing negligence of MintPal. But you decision also saved the hard earned money of over 600 investors/traders. A whole community that believes in you and your partners and avoided another terrible blow to the perception of digital currencies by the mainstream. You didn't have much choice beyond self-immolation but what that selfish decision has and will accomplish, is nothin g short of remarkable.

Let's just say that from now on, just like it did when you gay put your real names out there, there's a before and after in crypto. Hopefully this will separate the assholes and criminal from the progressive ones that will take crypto currencies forward to reach the goals that the technology allows and NOT the political agendas of pathetic rejects and assorted criminals.

I agree with everything you said for the first time ever...

Well said.

buy4crypto = ie? 

[jrich76]

What you and many others fail to understand, (or more believably use as excuse to FUD) is the fact that not rolling back would exactly lead to the situation in where protocol would be exploited.

Therefore same situation.

Eth.

What you obviously don't understand:
Did VRC fix the protocol?  No...  VRC is still vulnerable to exactly the same majority holder attack. 

This is why Proof of Share coins are inherently inferior.

VRC cannot fix the flaw, because it's built into the protocol. The coin is permanently flawed.

This is a wrong conclusion, in my opinion. The problem is not POS protocol. The problem is the scale. A SMALL POS is a problem. A big one is the solution.

Correct, nowhere, seriously NO WHERE, in any technical literature about POS does it say, "OK, now, a really big and greedy exchange should keep lots and lots of these coins in a hot wallet and have an SQL injection vulnerability coded into their site"

Nowhere does it say that, and remember too, Mintpal never really said how the SQL injection happened, if they even know, if that isn't' complete bullshit anyway.

POS is not the problem, centralized exchanges that lie are the problem. Right on mintpal's site it states "the majority of funds are kept in cold storage" but clearly that is a lie. They keep shitcoins like GRUMP in cold storage I'm sure, but amazingly this really valuable coin, veri, was in the hot wallet, all 8 million. Look at the network stake numbers from just before that day to just after, it was clearly MP staking all 8 million coins, so they lied in their announcement about the hack.

Buy vericoin, dump mintpal.

[buy4crypto]

Please don't attack Charlie Lee (coblee). He owns VeriCoin and is family. His criticism is justified.

Well Patrick Charlie Lee can be your god but he is VERY wrong this time around. And by being wrong in "his opinion" he is perpetuating not just the biggest flaw in cryptos but defending that the ostracism from the real world will continue. He lives, by his choosing and his opinions, in the bubble of the underworld or nerds who code, watch massive porn amounts, masturbate frequently and are high or doped most of the time. Yes I know a lot in the crypto community adhere to this short of lifestyle and it won't be me criticizing it -or any other lifestyle chosen by adults-, but the fact of the matter is that in that bubble no people from the outside has either a place nor a minimal interest in joining. It's the people that in the name of some form of self-laws and self-government (all of it BULLSHIT, by the way), not only justify thievery and fraud but promote it and even brag about it. It used to be stealing intellectual property and now it has escalated to stealing plain old fashioned money. And that has to stop, by a minimal progression through some semblance of ethics or, most likely, by real law. And regulation.

Meanwhile he dares to call you selfish because you refused to immolate yourself and your partners, forever, while allowing a thief to profit maybe in the millions of dollars at the expense of investors. That's some peculiar sense of "humor" right there. Why not asking directly for you and your partners to commit suicide because you have made a decision that, HOPEFULLY, will forever change crypto and convert it into something with a real practical use for an economy many times bigger than the nerdy coders now crippling it. Where is Litecoin, by the way, going? All the way to Palookaville, I'd say. Where's VRC? We don't know. But if Mr Boricuaman and his Black Hand don't put it out of business -and it is up to you to not allow that to happen, to a certain extent at least-, it is breaking off, or could be breaking off the pack towards a sensible, close to the real people mainstream assimilation.

So sorry but Mr. Charlie Lee is, to me, one asshole more perpetuating crime in crypto and hindering his progress. Yes, you acted selfishly in the way that it was preserving the coin you created that some asshole had marked for death because of the amazing negligence of MintPal. But you decision also saved the hard earned money of over 600 investors/traders. A whole community that believes in you and your partners and avoided another terrible blow to the perception of digital currencies by the mainstream. You didn't have much choice beyond self-immolation but what that selfish decision has and will accomplish, is nothin g short of remarkable.

Let's just say that from now on, just like it did when you gay put your real names out there, there's a before and after in crypto. Hopefully this will separate the assholes and criminal from the progressive ones that will take crypto currencies forward to reach the goals that the technology allows and NOT the political agendas of pathetic rejects and assorted criminals.

I agree with everything you said for the first time ever...

Well said.

buy4crypto = ie?  

Ha, He is spot on with this perticular opinion. Everything else I question

[ofp]

PoS is like gravity though it really is a weak force that encourages centralization by rewarding people for hoarding coins.

What makes people hoard coins in not POS or even the staking payment (which btw is not interest payment, its built-in inflation). People hoard expecting either future appreciation of value or withdrawal security (meaning more money in the future or same money for sure).