Bitcoin Forum
December 08, 2016, 04:34:52 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Is bitcoina good for the bitcoin econamy ?
Yes, it attracts more serious traders
No, it only makes prices more volatile
Other, see post below

Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: [Daily Speculation Poll] :: Is bitcoina good for the bitcoin economy?  (Read 1118 times)
adamstgBit
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1904


Trusted Bitcoiner


View Profile WWW
January 19, 2012, 03:14:58 AM
 #1


Cheesy


1481214892
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481214892

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481214892
Reply with quote  #2

1481214892
Report to moderator
1481214892
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481214892

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481214892
Reply with quote  #2

1481214892
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481214892
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481214892

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481214892
Reply with quote  #2

1481214892
Report to moderator
chsados
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 652



View Profile
January 19, 2012, 03:17:54 AM
 #2

i hope zhoutong seriously considers starting their own exchange.  and keep it open to people who dont necessarily want to use bitcoinica.

I think it's time to have another poll about a potential change. Honestly we're still exploring options, but we definitely want your opinions!

A lot of people have chosen "Bitcoinica Independent Exchange" (it will be renamed to something different), I will simply share my ideas for this:

- Insanely low fees, like 0.1%. (Because we have no profit pressure.)
- Websocket API
- BitInstant support
- TCP-based API
- Rackspace Cloud Co-location (1ms to our server)
- Redis-based trading engine (thousands of orders per second)
- Full access to Bitcoinica's limit order liquidity
- Fully independent (You don't have to use Bitcoinica to use the exchange.)

only problem i see arising is 80%+ of the market will prob just switch from mtgox and volatility will be the same.  hopefully this would give mtgox the incentive to improve though.
kjlimo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1498


View Profile WWW
January 19, 2012, 03:18:25 AM
 #3

How about yes, b/c it liquidates crazy kids accounts who try to make more than they should!

CampBX for buying BTCs, Coinbase for selling BTCs or Vircurex or Cryptsy for trading alternate cryptocurrencies like DOGEs

PM me with any questions on these sites!  Happy to help!

Bitcoin Poker at Seals                  Strike Sapphire Casino  Free games every hour & day!
  Get Free Bitcoins here.

Spondoolies-Tech or KnC Miner for the fastest mining hardware available!

Bitpay to help your business accept bitcoin payments!
adamstgBit
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1904


Trusted Bitcoiner


View Profile WWW
January 19, 2012, 03:24:52 AM
 #4

How about yes, b/c it liquidates crazy kids accounts who try to make more than they should!

that would be -1 point for the economy, because it allows crazy kids to cause crazy price swings

i voted yes... but it was a hard choice


Dutch Merganser
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
January 19, 2012, 04:25:54 AM
 #5

Other.

There is very little "bitcoin economy" other than its application to transgressive activities like the drug trade, money laundering, and maybe a little tax evasion. You really need to go out of your way to use it for "normal" purposes and it just limits your choices in the marketplace for normal goods, why bother?

OTOH, it's a pretty good online gambling game. The game aspect can cause $2 million in coins to move in a day's time. Take out the drug trade or not, there's no way anything near that much in coins is moving in goods and services on a daily basis.

The notion of a bitcoin economy is rather quaint sharing the room with a 500 pound gorilla riding an elephant, that is, gambling.

"Science flies you to the Moon, religion flies you into buildings."
 - Victor Stenger

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and the rulers as useful."
 - Seneca the Elder (ca. 54 BCE - ca. 39 CE) Roman rhetorician
Serge
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050


View Profile
January 19, 2012, 04:29:47 AM
 #6

i don't know

i think who wants leveraged risk - let them have it. and hope they know what they are doing.
Dutch Merganser
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
January 19, 2012, 07:30:44 AM
 #7

Other.

There is very little "bitcoin economy" other than its application to transgressive activities like the drug trade, money laundering, and maybe a little tax evasion. You really need to go out of your way to use it for "normal" purposes and it just limits your choices in the marketplace for normal goods, why bother?

OTOH, it's a pretty good online gambling game. The game aspect can cau
se $2 million in coins to move in a day's time. Take out the drug trade or not, there's no way anything near that much in coins is moving in goods and services on a daily basis.

The notion of a bitcoin economy is rather quaint sharing the room with a 500 pound gorilla riding an elephant, that is, gambling.


Same thing with "normal" economies where the gambling on currency is massive compared to say GDP of nations using said currencies. Bitcoin is just a much smaller scale.

Quote from: Wikipedia: Foreign exchange market
As such, it has been referred to as the market closest to the ideal of perfect competition, notwithstanding currency intervention by central banks. According to the Bank for International Settlements,[3] as of April 2010, average daily turnover in global foreign exchange markets is estimated at $3.98 trillion, a growth of approximately 20% over the $3.21 trillion daily volume as of April 2007. Some firms specializing on foreign exchange market had put the average daily turnover in excess of US$4 trillion.

Compare that to the actual economy and you could say there is very little "normal economy". A few days of Forex volume overtaking a year of the GDP of the richest countries in the world.

So bitcoin isn't differentiated from fiat currencies in this regard? There's a lot of whining going around about how gambling wrecked the world economy in recent years, e.g. credit default swaps, the total magnitude of which dwarfed *everything* ever before seen. Why would we not expect a similar outcome in the bitcoin microcosm?

Maybe it's time to start writing Bitcoinica default swaps looking forward to the day when no one can get their money out of BC because everyone is trying to do so at the same time? Naw, that's too simple, we would need to write swaps on the swaps, just like the CDS2, CDS3, and so on that were written on mortgage-based CDS. Naw, that didn't work out, but that's ok, someone could make some money at it for doing very little at least until the roof falls in.

What do think the total BWP ( Bitcoin World Product ) is? That is to say, goods and services exchanged for bitcoins?


"Science flies you to the Moon, religion flies you into buildings."
 - Victor Stenger

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and the rulers as useful."
 - Seneca the Elder (ca. 54 BCE - ca. 39 CE) Roman rhetorician
Dutch Merganser
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
January 19, 2012, 08:08:32 AM
 #8

Other.

There is very little "bitcoin economy" other than its application to transgressive activities like the drug trade, money laundering, and maybe a little tax evasion. You really need to go out of your way to use it for "normal" purposes and it just limits your choices in the marketplace for normal goods, why bother?

OTOH, it's a pretty good online gambling game. The game aspect can cau
se $2 million in coins to move in a day's time. Take out the drug trade or not, there's no way anything near that much in coins is moving in goods and services on a daily basis.

The notion of a bitcoin economy is rather quaint sharing the room with a 500 pound gorilla riding an elephant, that is, gambling.


Same thing with "normal" economies where the gambling on currency is massive compared to say GDP of nations using said currencies. Bitcoin is just a much smaller scale.

Quote from: Wikipedia: Foreign exchange market
As such, it has been referred to as the market closest to the ideal of perfect competition, notwithstanding currency intervention by central banks. According to the Bank for International Settlements,[3] as of April 2010, average daily turnover in global foreign exchange markets is estimated at $3.98 trillion, a growth of approximately 20% over the $3.21 trillion daily volume as of April 2007. Some firms specializing on foreign exchange market had put the average daily turnover in excess of US$4 trillion.

Compare that to the actual economy and you could say there is very little "normal economy". A few days of Forex volume overtaking a year of the GDP of the richest countries in the world.

So bitcoin isn't differentiated from fiat currencies in this regard? There's a lot of whining going around about how gambling wrecked the world economy in recent years, e.g. credit default swaps, the total magnitude of which dwarfed *everything* ever before seen. Why would we not expect a similar outcome in the bitcoin microcosm?

Maybe it's time to start writing Bitcoinica default swaps looking forward to the day when no one can get their money out of BC because everyone is trying to do so at the same time? Naw, that's too simple, we would need to write swaps on the swaps, just like the CDS2, CDS3, and so on that were written on mortgage-based CDS. Naw, that didn't work out, but that's ok, someone could make some money at it for doing very little at least until the roof falls in.

What do think the total BWP ( Bitcoin World Product ) is? That is to say, goods and services exchanged for bitcoins?

The underlying problem that caused most of the stuff in your post is government intervention and machinations of the Fed. A lot of people don't agree with that statement, but it's a discussion I don't want to get into, because it's not worth our time if we disagree. And neither of us would change our mind anyway.

Gambling is fine if losers lose and winners win. When losers win, shit gets all fucked up.

I have no idea what the total yearly BWP is, but would guessing a few days volume on the exchanges be unrealistic?

We do disagree. I was deep in the banking business during the period from 1999 to 2009, I got to watch the whole thing unfold like a bad accident in slow motion. It was the madness of crowds feeding itself into a frenzy and can't be laid on just governments, just the Fed, just banks, just borrowers, just politicians, just real estate developers, just house flippers or just any one or two other of the usual whipping boys. It was one of the most interesting pieces of behavioral economics I've ever seen but making sense of it is not something that has taken place yet, for one thing there's way too much denial around the subject still and too many blind men feeling up the elephant and calling out the all the textures they know favorites first.

I do tend to say that at the simplest level, when the criterion for writing a loan or not ceased to be the borrower's ability to repay and instead was the ability of the lender to lay off risk ( so it seemed ) via securitizations, swaps, etc, that's when the train started leaving the tracks.

You said "Gambling is fine if losers lose and winners win. When losers win, shit gets all fucked up." Losing and winning are definitional, how can a loser be a winner? Did I miss something?

Your estimate of the BWP doesn't sound terribly off but I have no clue as to what would be on. If you are correct, there's plenty of headroom for more gambling based on comparative ratios, you want to write some Bitcoinica default swaps with me? Tell ya what, you BDS me and I'll BDS2 you, then you can BDS3 me back, then.... Smiley


"Science flies you to the Moon, religion flies you into buildings."
 - Victor Stenger

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and the rulers as useful."
 - Seneca the Elder (ca. 54 BCE - ca. 39 CE) Roman rhetorician
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!