Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Mini Rig Box

[kano]

Yeah not sure where people get the idea that a distributor makes the VAT go away.

AFAIK (and granted euro tax law wasn't may major in college)

BFL -> Customer (pay VAT)
BFL -> Distributor (no VAT) .... Distributor -> Customer (pay VAT)

right?

Yeah, you are correct.
And any system designed to bypass customs (incl. VAT) is tax fraud btw.

My 2 Icarus' were sent to someone else in China who then sent them to me with the description "PCB Develop Board 2"
(using EMS)
I guess that's Tax Fraud coz they didn't charge me any
Though ... it was to Aus, not EU

(Aside: Now that's what I call doing it right, one person accepting BTC, designing, getting them built, testing and delivering - 3 batches completed already)

[bulanula]

This is a great product to sell on Silk Road.

Yeah. I am not quite sure about that but there were people actually selling London 2012 olympic tickets on the SR. Again this is supposedly illegal ( selling olympic tickets ).

The messed up laws this country has ...

How was the sales tax issue fixed in the US ( which states are charged, which are not )

[DeathAndTaxes]

How was the sales tax issue fixed in the US ( which states are charged, which are not )

Businesses only have to collect taxes for the state in which they are located (technically a "nexus").  For BFL that is ... I don't know but it isn't Virginia.

Honestly in the age of digital records sales taxes (and taxes like VAT and duties) are so obsolete.  Just collect it off income and be done.  Of course the only reason to have income tax + sales tax + duties + VAT + fees as taxes + mandatory govt services + real estate tax + corporate tax + dividend tax + capital gains tax + excise tax + gasoline tax + firearms tax + alcohol tax + payroll tax + etc .....

is to hide how much taxes.

If it was a simple flat unavoidable tax off the top of your income with no exceptions, deductions, loopholes, carve outs, or kickbacks people would be outraged and they would fix it by reducing spending (and the power of govt) and thus reducing the amount of taxes necessary.

Spread it around into 20 or 30 different pots and maybe people don't realize how much they are owned by the govt.

[fred0]

How was the sales tax issue fixed in the US ( which states are charged, which are not )

Sales tax is simplest tax to work around.  As long as the item is purchased out of state(for example via the internet), no tax is due.  Technically, all purchases done this way are supposed to be declared on your state income tax so you don't "get away" with out paying sales tax. But this is basically unenforceable.

[SgtSpike]

This is a great product to sell on Silk Road.

Yeah. I am not quite sure about that but there were people actually selling London 2012 olympic tickets on the SR. Again this is supposedly illegal ( selling olympic tickets ).

The messed up laws this country has ...

How was the sales tax issue fixed in the US ( which states are charged, which are not )

They are only charging sales tax in Missouri, their state of business registration.

[PulsedMedia]

Yeah not sure where people get the idea that a distributor makes the VAT go away.

AFAIK (and granted euro tax law wasn't may major in college)

BFL -> Customer (pay VAT)
BFL -> Distributor (no VAT) .... Distributor -> Customer (pay VAT)

right?

Yeah, you are correct.
And any system designed to bypass customs (incl. VAT) is tax fraud btw.

I sure am very concerned about that

I also declare all my BTC profits to the taxman because the big corporations pay all their taxes to the day, setting a model for everybody else.

Would you pay $850 for a device that is meant to cost $600 ?

ATM the BFL is a no go for the EU / UK unless you go the "dodgy" route ( don't even know what this means ) but a legalised way ( it is not like they are the only ones abusing the tax system and finding loopholes in it; here in the UK there actually are lawyers getting paid to do this by the rich who should be taxed 50% usually ) is what we need if BFL wants to have some EU sales.  

Hahha yeah, bigger the corporation, more blatant and direct tax evasion they do

Indeed, i wouldn't pay that neither, but it's the sad reality for individuals. As a company i will get the VAT back couple months later. Also, the VAT is quite trivial to circumvent when ordering abroad if you know how, there is still a risk of "getting caught", but the cost of that is having to pay the VAT, nothing else.

Infact, that happens all the time, even without trying, packages just don't end up in customs even if worth is in the thousands, at times. Depends greatly on shipping method too.

[fred0]

Just thinking, maybe the topic of this thread should be Remotely related to the BitForce Single and Rig Box. Maybe this post belongs in Meta.

[rjk]

Just thinking, maybe the topic of this thread should be Remotely related to the BitForce Single and Rig Box. Maybe this post belongs in Meta.

We've already discussed them until we were blue in the face. What more do you want to know that is on topic?

[fred0]

Just thinking, maybe the topic of this thread should be Remotely related to the BitForce Single and Rig Box. Maybe this post belongs in Meta.

We've already discussed them until we were blue in the face. What more do you want to know that is on topic?

Throttling.  Inaccuracies in MH/s reading in cgminer.  I'll start.

Boy that throttling is a PITA.  I have one unit that always wants to slow down.

Don't look at the MH/s reading in cgminer, they are wrong.  You can only calculate an accurate hash from the Util. number.  Ok all you single owners go do some math and see how fast you are really hashing.  

[RandyFolds]

Wait, Fred...so these aren't manna sent from heaven?

[fred0]

Wait, Fred...so these aren't manna sent from heaven?

Well, I like the units a lot, but to say there is nothing left to talk about but avoiding sales tax, I find a little extreme.  After all how many threads are there for optimizing gpus.  Why is the average mh/s always off in cgminer?

The other thing that I noticed was that shipments have accelerated, so I think that we will see a lot more in the wild.

Lastly, my remark did have a bit of sarcasm, but the thread title may as well be called All things BitFORCE, because really, when looking at the posts, that does seem accurate.

[TheOtherGuy]

Fred,

Can you give us more details on the throttling? Is it heat related?

[kano]

Just thinking, maybe the topic of this thread should be Remotely related to the BitForce Single and Rig Box. Maybe this post belongs in Meta.

We've already discussed them until we were blue in the face. What more do you want to know that is on topic?

Throttling.  Inaccuracies in MH/s reading in cgminer.  I'll start.

Boy that throttling is a PITA.  I have one unit that always wants to slow down.

Don't look at the MH/s reading in cgminer, they are wrong.  You can only calculate an accurate hash from the Util. number.  Ok all you single owners got do some math and see how fast you are really hashing.  

You should check the validity of what you say first

Yes the MH/s may be wrong in cgminer - go complain to Luke-jr for that if it is wrong - he wrote the function that returns the number each time

If you want to give me a BFL (I've entered the raffle) I'll fix it if it needs fixing

However, your U: is only representative of your hash rate.
Yes it is SIMPLE maths to convert that random U: number to a random hash rate: U * 2^32 / 60
However, U: is directly related to the pseudo-random function of generating a block (it is the same thing)

Firstly what should be my usual comment on this: ask Meni to do an analysis if you want to work out it's variance over time.
However, after a day of hashing I usually find it is within 10% but it often jumps around up to 5% even after a day of hashing.

However ... in general ... as I have said a few times ... if you are hashing on P2Pool with a BFL ... DONT.
Coz then your hash rate will be all over the place and you will be throwing away a lot of work.

Edit1: oh and the throttling is done by the unit itself, not cgminer (in case anyone wasn't sure)
(though cgminer will turn off the bitforce if the temperature gets too high - above 'cutofftemp' which is actually a GPU option that defaults to 95°C - assuming your version of cgminer can read the temperature)

Edit2: Yes TheOtherGuy it is exactly heat related

Edit3: the option is --temp-cutoff

[Inaba]

My BFL hashrate seem to be commensurate with my GPU hashrate in terms of U and A in cgminer, just for the record.

[jamesg]

My BFL hashrate seem to be commensurate with my GPU hashrate in terms of U and A in cgminer, just for the record.

I have seen no evidence of throttling with my single. Been pretty constant at 829Mh/s. I have 4 more coming tomorrow so I'll have my first 5Gh computer running in the next 24 hours. 

[rjk]

My BFL hashrate seem to be commensurate with my GPU hashrate in terms of U and A in cgminer, just for the record.

I have seen no evidence of throttling with my single. Been pretty constant at 829Mh/s. I have 4 more coming tomorrow so I'll have my first 5Gh computer running in the next 24 hours. 

+1, it's only been down twice, once when my USB hub died, and another time for a reboot. Aprox. 73 degrees Fahrenheit ambient. Ufasoft (for now)

[fred0]

My BFL hashrate seem to be commensurate with my GPU hashrate in terms of U and A in cgminer, just for the record.

I have seen no evidence of throttling with my single. Been pretty constant at 829Mh/s. I have 4 more coming tomorrow so I'll have my first 5Gh computer running in the next 24 hours.  

Defenders of the single, I'm not attacking performance, of cgminer or single, I will continue to use both.

However, mh/s in cgminer is not reliable. I have been calculating the average mh/s from the number of shares submitted, then comparing with the average mh/s in cgminer, the two numbers are always different.

I don't know enough to isolate where the problem lies.
Devices

Summary


Notice that the mh/s on the device screen are pretty consistent, and are in fact the numbers returned by api call from cgminer (average mh/s).

The summary calculates the average mh/s by from averaging all accepted shares over the full submission period.

I would think that these numbers should be very very close, but they are different, still close.  I don't know enough about the working of cgminer to argue the point.

The throttling is heat related, and it is minor.

[fred0]

My BFL hashrate seem to be commensurate with my GPU hashrate in terms of U and A in cgminer, just for the record.

I have seen no evidence of throttling with my single. Been pretty constant at 829Mh/s. I have 4 more coming tomorrow so I'll have my first 5Gh computer running in the next 24 hours. 

I actually have seen it a couple of times today, use cgminer by all means, but keep an eye on the U, that is what signaled the discrepancy to me.

I have run ufasoft to compare performance with cgminer, and really noticed no difference.  However, needless to say with all my testing, none has been the 24 hour performance testing, but 3 to 8 hours typically, which should be pretty good.

Let me reiterate, I made a sizable purchase of singles, I have seen nothing to dissuade me from purchasing more.

[fred0]

My BFL hashrate seem to be commensurate with my GPU hashrate in terms of U and A in cgminer, just for the record.

I have seen no evidence of throttling with my single. Been pretty constant at 829Mh/s. I have 4 more coming tomorrow so I'll have my first 5Gh computer running in the next 24 hours.  

+1, it's only been down twice, once when my USB hub died, and another time for a reboot. Aprox. 73 degrees Fahrenheit ambient. Ufasoft (for now)

Unfortunately, today was uncomfortably warm in the atlantic northeastern US. Even now, it's about 80 F where the singles are located.  The 5970s are about to get shut off, that should cool the room off. Even at these temps, well you can see that only one throttling. It's at 747 MH/s now (BFL1)

[TheOtherGuy]

Thanks for the additional info Fred.