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Bitsinmyhead
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March 30, 2012, 08:17:15 PM
 #41

I was under the impression that shakaru has repaid or is in the process or repaying his debts?

I've locked the account, but if he's doing this then I see no reason to keep it locked.

How about doing several IPOs taking the money and using if at the bar instead of buying mining equipment. Should that not be enough for a life time ban?

Regarding the re-payment. He has paid back 1% of what he owes and it has been almost a full month. This is only for the people who bought mining contracts. Nothing has been repaid to the shareholders who he blatantly ripped off. Shakaru also owes a lot of money outside this forum. He should never be allowed to do business on the exchange again.

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March 30, 2012, 08:43:08 PM
 #42

I was under the impression that shakaru has repaid or is in the process or repaying his debts?

I've locked the account, but if he's doing this then I see no reason to keep it locked.

How about doing several IPOs taking the money and using if at the bar instead of buying mining equipment. Should that not be enough for a life time ban?

Regarding the re-payment. He has paid back 1% of what he owes and it has been almost a full month. This is only for the people who bought mining contracts. Nothing has been repaid to the shareholders who he blatantly ripped off. Shakaru also owes a lot of money outside this forum. He should never be allowed to do business on the exchange again.

How does everybody else feel about this?

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March 30, 2012, 10:43:57 PM
 #43

also no need for ratings, as many are giving their facebook/address/email etc.. which nefario is verifying

Verifying asset issuer identity has nothing to do with whether a share is going to float or crash.

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March 31, 2012, 02:09:49 AM
 #44


Someone talked about this before and I suggested that people not vote but instead speculate with money.  It would be basically a bet on if the company defaults and/or goes under.  People that own shares or are customers of the company and are taking risk by using the company can hedge that the company will fail.  Meanwhile, speculators can take the other side of the bet that the company will stay solvent in the time period set by the contract.  With enough volume, companies that meet many of the solvency tests would be indicating in the price of this bet.

Ah so we're talking about a prediction market, this idea has worth.
How would people who predict that an asset is good cashout?

Have the contracts that a company becomes insolvent expire after a certain amount of time, maybe each month or every quarter.  For example, say I own shares of AAA on GLBSE but I am afraid it may become insolvent.  I go to the prediction market and buy a contract that says AAA will become insolvent which expires in 3 months and if it becomes insolvent then the contract holder is paid x amount of BTC.  On the other side of the trade is someone that believes that AAA will not become insolvent by the time the contract expires.  The buyer of the contract pays the seller a premium.  If AAA does not become insolvent by the expiration of the contract, the contract becomes invalid and the seller of the contract profits by the premium.  If AAA does become insolvent before the expiration then the seller of the contract is required to give the buyer of the contract a certain amount of money as stated in the contract.

If the market is liquid enough the buyers and sellers could sell or buy back their interest anytime to other people.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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March 31, 2012, 02:25:01 AM
 #45


Someone talked about this before and I suggested that people not vote but instead speculate with money.  It would be basically a bet on if the company defaults and/or goes under.  People that own shares or are customers of the company and are taking risk by using the company can hedge that the company will fail.  Meanwhile, speculators can take the other side of the bet that the company will stay solvent in the time period set by the contract.  With enough volume, companies that meet many of the solvency tests would be indicating in the price of this bet.

Ah so we're talking about a prediction market, this idea has worth.
How would people who predict that an asset is good cashout?

Have the contracts that a company becomes insolvent expire after a certain amount of time, maybe each month or every quarter.  For example, say I own shares of AAA on GLBSE but I am afraid it may become insolvent.  I go to the prediction market and buy a contract that says AAA will become insolvent which expires in 3 months and if it becomes insolvent then the contract holder is paid x amount of BTC.  On the other side of the trade is someone that believes that AAA will not become insolvent by the time the contract expires.  The buyer of the contract pays the seller a premium.  If AAA does not become insolvent by the expiration of the contract, the contract becomes invalid and the seller of the contract profits by the premium.  If AAA does become insolvent before the expiration then the seller of the contract is required to give the buyer of the contract a certain amount of money as stated in the contract.

If the market is liquid enough the buyers and sellers could sell or buy back their interest anytime to other people.

Maybe using the existing GLBSE functionality could work too.  Sub accounts on the tickers could be created: one to speculate that the company AAA will fail in a certain time period (AAA.fail) and another to speculate that AAA will survive (AAA.win).  Every month or 3 months AAA.fail and AAA.win could have an IPO of a specific number of shares.  They both start out as 1BTC to 1 share for each ticker.  The contracts would say that the money from the .fail and .win sub accounts will be pooled together and if AAA becomes insolvent in that time period then the people that own AAA.fail receive a payout from the pooled money.  If AAA is still solvent after that time period then AAA.win receives the payout from the pooled money.  The asset creator could charge a percentage of the payout for management fees.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
Bitsinmyhead
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March 31, 2012, 09:02:01 AM
 #46

dont lock Bitarb.apr , i have shares in that and its not scam.



How do you know this? Have you seen a screenshot of the 100BTC in the Mt.Gox account? Because if you are just taking shakaru's word for it, I predict you will end up disappointed.

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March 31, 2012, 01:14:33 PM
 #47

Nice to see you have such great trust in shakaru, seems like he really needs it at the moment, but unless you know for sure that the BTC is were it should be, I would not put much faith in his words. You should ask him what he did with the money from the last two IPOs he did, because he sure as hell did not do what he promised in the contract.

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March 31, 2012, 04:33:20 PM
 #48

my 2 cents ... when I noticed that it's shakaru who issued bitarb.apr I sold all my shares while they still traded around/above IPO. I'm sorry for the loss of other members but I'm not willingly taking part in non performing ventures (looking at the volume of his non performing loans this drop of capital won't save the statistics unless he strikes oil or finds gold ...)

1) The bot starts tomorrow and we should be able to follow on the website < ? > the performance.

2) It isn't explicitly stated what happens to the funds that shakuru has put in the bot - are they reinvested for next month (bitarb.may), only the profits (if any) are sent to the repayment fund, or all the funds returned in shakuru's shares are sent to the repayment fund.



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Bitsinmyhead
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March 31, 2012, 05:17:06 PM
 #49

In the trading forum, shakaru says he is still working on the website stuff so that will probably not be up until may. If I was an investor in this I would demand screenshots and daily statements of trades made, because as it stands now, shakaru can pretty much just take the money himself and say the bot lost it. Seeing how shakaru is a known thief, scammer and liar I think the odds of him doing something like that is pretty high.

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March 31, 2012, 06:01:07 PM
 #50

In the trading forum, shakaru says he is still working on the website stuff so that will probably not be up until may. If I was an investor in this I would demand screenshots and daily statements of trades made, because as it stands now, shakaru can pretty much just take the money himself and say the bot lost it. Seeing how shakaru is a known thief, scammer and liar I think the odds of him doing something like that is pretty high.

AFAIK shakaru's current status is bankrupt, that is he's declared himself bankrupt and is in the process of dealing with his creditors. Normally a person in this situation would be unable to get loans or certainly sell shares (or be the director of a LTD. company) until they get themselves out of this situation.

I would think that a person would need to be in a situation of good standing to be able to make loans or issue shares and so on.

Does everyone else consider this to be a reasonable action to take?

 

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March 31, 2012, 07:01:09 PM
 #51

In the trading forum, shakaru says he is still working on the website stuff so that will probably not be up until may. If I was an investor in this I would demand screenshots and daily statements of trades made, because as it stands now, shakaru can pretty much just take the money himself and say the bot lost it. Seeing how shakaru is a known thief, scammer and liar I think the odds of him doing something like that is pretty high.

AFAIK shakaru's current status is bankrupt, that is he's declared himself bankrupt and is in the process of dealing with his creditors. Normally a person in this situation would be unable to get loans or certainly sell shares (or be the director of a LTD. company) until they get themselves out of this situation.

I would think that a person would need to be in a situation of good standing to be able to make loans or issue shares and so on.

Does everyone else consider this to be a reasonable action to take?

 

Shares are already issued and sold.  The one issue runs for the month of April, which starts tmrw.  I own a few of those shares and would like to see what happens with it.  If you want to bar him from issuing new assets / shares thats one thing, but freezing him out totally isn't going to help anyone get any money back, myself included.  As well I gotta say, I don't know much about Shakaru, only really dealt with him on one item, but had no problems with the transaction.

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March 31, 2012, 10:54:38 PM
 #52

businesses succeed or fail, in this case SDM/SDM.LEVA venture failed. but he has other good assets (the bot) so i am investing in that.

SDM/SDM.LEVA did not fail. Shakaru outright stole the IPO funds and spent it at the bar. There is no guarantee that he will not do the same here. I bet you 10BTC that the Bitarb stock will pay out less than 1BTC at the end of April. PM if you are interested in putting your money where your mouth is.

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March 31, 2012, 11:08:01 PM
 #53

sorry i am muslim , i dont bet / gamble  Tongue



semantics.  Any investment with shakaru's is a gamble already.  Since he can't pay off his debts yet owns this arbitrage bot, shouldn't the boy bot be sold off so his creditors can get paid, or is there some mystical limited liability floating around here?

There should be financial disclosure requirements for each share.  If they are going to release dividends each week then they should also release how much BTC or cash held by the listed company, the value of current assets, and the costs of doing business.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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March 31, 2012, 11:41:51 PM
 #54

Is SATOSHISDAEMON.horse  really available?  Seems the race time has come and passed.

We were delayed. She has had 2 official workouts now.

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March 31, 2012, 11:55:33 PM
 #55

sorry i am muslim , i dont bet / gamble  Tongue



semantics.  Any investment with shakaru's is a gamble already.  Since he can't pay off his debts yet owns this arbitrage bot, shouldn't the boy be sold off so his creditors can get paid, or is there some mystical limited liability floating around here?

There should be financial disclosure requirements for each share.  If they are going to release dividends each week then they should also release how much BTC or cash held by the listed company, the value of current assets, and the costs of doing business.

+1

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April 01, 2012, 12:19:40 AM
 #56

In the trading forum, shakaru says he is still working on the website stuff so that will probably not be up until may. If I was an investor in this I would demand screenshots and daily statements of trades made, because as it stands now, shakaru can pretty much just take the money himself and say the bot lost it. Seeing how shakaru is a known thief, scammer and liar I think the odds of him doing something like that is pretty high.

AFAIK shakaru's current status is bankrupt, that is he's declared himself bankrupt and is in the process of dealing with his creditors. Normally a person in this situation would be unable to get loans or certainly sell shares (or be the director of a LTD. company) until they get themselves out of this situation.

I would think that a person would need to be in a situation of good standing to be able to make loans or issue shares and so on.

Does everyone else consider this to be a reasonable action to take?

 

Shares are already issued and sold.  The one issue runs for the month of April, which starts tmrw.  I own a few of those shares and would like to see what happens with it.  If you want to bar him from issuing new assets / shares thats one thing, but freezing him out totally isn't going to help anyone get any money back, myself included.  As well I gotta say, I don't know much about Shakaru, only really dealt with him on one item, but had no problems with the transaction.

teek
@Bits..please halt on the attack a few more days.  At this point it is no longer helping me to help Shakaru or his debtors or myself.  I do appreciate the dedication you have put into it, and I believe the correct results were obtained, but please hold up for a few days.  You got a reaction already.  Thank you

@Nefario
+10
You are correct, he has absolutely nothing.  He has finally as of Thursday agreed to see me to work something out. We have a 110 BTC debt with him, along with other monetary items since we were his roommates when everything failed.

He has "promised", I know, Sad , that he will meet with me.  I am hoping I can help him create a business/re-payment plan.  And yes, I am qualified.  If he chooses 1. Not to meet with me within the 2 days, or 2. Fails to come up with a reasonable repayment plan, I will be back to request further actions be taken here, because at that point I will have been forced to take further actions on my side, which will, unfortunately impact people here.  I am sorry in advance.  As they say, prepare for the worst, but hope for the best.

@teek..I do think think it will run, no idea on the results though.  I really hope for you something good comes out of it.  So IMHO, let it run and allow Shakaru to hang himself again.  Or not, hopefully.

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April 01, 2012, 12:51:51 AM
 #57

my 2 cents ... when I noticed that it's shakaru who issued bitarb.apr I sold all my shares while they still traded around/above IPO. I'm sorry for the loss of other members but I'm not willingly taking part in non performing ventures (looking at the volume of his non performing loans this drop of capital won't save the statistics unless he strikes oil or finds gold ...)

1) The bot starts tomorrow and we should be able to follow on the website < ? > the performance.

2) It isn't explicitly stated what happens to the funds that shakuru has put in the bot - are they reinvested for next month (bitarb.may), only the profits (if any) are sent to the repayment fund, or all the funds returned in shakuru's shares are sent to the repayment fund.

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You should re-read the thread. It is a month by month. 

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April 01, 2012, 02:48:48 PM
 #58

Perhaps the GLBSE could allow companies to put up money to be bonded, similar to how companies are "bonded and insured" to protect against losses.  In the event the company disappears, the money in the bond would be distributed to shareholders.  

The bond could be rated as a % of total funds raised, to keep the massive companies from raising 1,000 BTC and appearing "bonded" by putting up 1 BTC.

My offline business is required to carry a very large bond, and it tends to discourage 'fly by night' companies from getting licensed and bonded to provide bad work.

Nobody liked my bonded by the GLBSE idea? 

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April 01, 2012, 03:48:35 PM
 #59

Perhaps the GLBSE could allow companies to put up money to be bonded, similar to how companies are "bonded and insured" to protect against losses.  In the event the company disappears, the money in the bond would be distributed to shareholders.  

The bond could be rated as a % of total funds raised, to keep the massive companies from raising 1,000 BTC and appearing "bonded" by putting up 1 BTC.

My offline business is required to carry a very large bond, and it tends to discourage 'fly by night' companies from getting licensed and bonded to provide bad work.

Nobody liked my bonded by the GLBSE idea?  

i like this idea very much, as long as it is not extreme.

Nefario, this would be fairly simple to implement from your end.  You could give each ticker a unique address that you control and the amount would be displayed via the blockexplorer link: http://blockexplorer.com/q/getreceivedbyaddress/ENTERADDRESSHERE

Taking it a step further, you could have a script that calculates the total amount of funds raised by the company via sales (minus buybacks) and give a % of funds bonded by the company using the blockexplorer number above as an image on the company asset page.  That would allow company owners to send funds to the bond at any time and have the bond % updated in real time.  It would all be automated and would require little ongoing effort on your part.

(http://blockexplorer.com/q/getreceivedbyaddress/ENTERADDRESSHERE) / (share sales - share buybacks) = Bonded %

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Nefario
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April 02, 2012, 03:11:55 AM
 #60

Perhaps the GLBSE could allow companies to put up money to be bonded, similar to how companies are "bonded and insured" to protect against losses.  In the event the company disappears, the money in the bond would be distributed to shareholders.  

The bond could be rated as a % of total funds raised, to keep the massive companies from raising 1,000 BTC and appearing "bonded" by putting up 1 BTC.

My offline business is required to carry a very large bond, and it tends to discourage 'fly by night' companies from getting licensed and bonded to provide bad work.

Nobody liked my bonded by the GLBSE idea?  

i like this idea very much, as long as it is not extreme.

Nefario, this would be fairly simple to implement from your end.  You could give each ticker a unique address that you control and the amount would be displayed via the blockexplorer link: http://blockexplorer.com/q/getreceivedbyaddress/ENTERADDRESSHERE

Taking it a step further, you could have a script that calculates the total amount of funds raised by the company via sales (minus buybacks) and give a % of funds bonded by the company using the blockexplorer number above as an image on the company asset page.  That would allow company owners to send funds to the bond at any time and have the bond % updated in real time.  It would all be automated and would require little ongoing effort on your part.

(http://blockexplorer.com/q/getreceivedbyaddress/ENTERADDRESSHERE) / (share sales - share buybacks) = Bonded %

I'll certainly consider this, would be 1 or 2 weeks before it's added.

What I would also like to see would be insurance, allow share issuers to buy insurance, and shareholders to do the same.

PGP key id at pgp.mit.edu 0xA68F4B7C

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