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Author Topic: Could Mining Be Useful?  (Read 3026 times)
DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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January 24, 2012, 02:52:00 AM
 #41

One more time.  This is Bitcoin.  An OPEN DECENTRALIZED (as in no trusted third party) PEER TO PEER NETWORK.  So exactly how do you limit nodes to closed proprietary hardware.  

Yes HDMI has been broken wide open.  It is only of academic value because DRM on compressed data is also broken and much easier to work with.
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Costia
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January 24, 2012, 03:02:31 AM
 #42

One more time.  This is Bitcoin.  An OPEN DECENTRALIZED (as in no trusted third party) PEER TO PEER NETWORK.  So exactly how do you limit nodes to closed proprietary hardware.  

Yes HDMI has been broken wide open.  It is only of academic value because DRM on compressed data is also broken and much easier to work with.

By not giving you a choice. By selling only closed platforms. and making it not profitable hacking them or building open platforms that can bypass the ISP's encryption that will also run on a closed platform.

So your choices will be:
Open/hacked platform that can run any node - expensive , protocols can change without notice and then the platform will be useless for a while - it wont be able to connect to your ISP (think about 20% average uptime between hacks and updates)
Closed platform - you can run a node only if it was digitally signed by some authority , and can be shut down remotely by that authority at any time.

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Gerald Davis


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January 24, 2012, 03:46:11 AM
 #43

One more time.  This is Bitcoin.  An OPEN DECENTRALIZED (as in no trusted third party) PEER TO PEER NETWORK.  So exactly how do you limit nodes to closed proprietary hardware. 

Yes HDMI has been broken wide open.  It is only of academic value because DRM on compressed data is also broken and much easier to work with.

By not giving you a choice. By selling only closed platforms. and making it not profitable hacking them or building open platforms that can bypass the ISP's encryption that will also run on a closed platform.

So your choices will be:
Open/hacked platform that can run any node - expensive , protocols can change without notice and then the platform will be useless for a while - it wont be able to connect to your ISP (think about 20% average uptime between hacks and updates)
Closed platform - you can run a node only if it was digitally signed by some authority , and can be shut down remotely by that authority at any time.



WHAT AUTHORITY?  Are you reading or just typing random keys.

Bitcoin = a decentralized peer to peer network WITHOUT ANY TRUSTED THIRD PARTY (i.e. a central authority).
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January 24, 2012, 03:53:19 AM
 #44

One more time.  This is Bitcoin.  An OPEN DECENTRALIZED (as in no trusted third party) PEER TO PEER NETWORK.  So exactly how do you limit nodes to closed proprietary hardware.  

Yes HDMI has been broken wide open.  It is only of academic value because DRM on compressed data is also broken and much easier to work with.

By not giving you a choice. By selling only closed platforms. and making it not profitable hacking them or building open platforms that can bypass the ISP's encryption that will also run on a closed platform.

So your choices will be:
Open/hacked platform that can run any node - expensive , protocols can change without notice and then the platform will be useless for a while - it wont be able to connect to your ISP (think about 20% average uptime between hacks and updates)
Closed platform - you can run a node only if it was digitally signed by some authority , and can be shut down remotely by that authority at any time.



WHAT AUTHORITY?  Are you reading or just typing random keys.

Bitcoin = a decentralized peer to peer network WITHOUT ANY TRUSTED THIRD PARTY (i.e. a central authority).

are you reading what i am writing at all?
How will bitcoin work if it cant send anything over the network?
Bitcoin requires the existence of an non censored internet to work.
If your ISP will drop all bitcoin related packets - there will be no blockchain (or as i suggested - dropping all non signed packets)

Authority = ISP being controlled and regulated by corporations/government
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January 24, 2012, 04:00:11 AM
 #45

are you reading what i am writing at all?
How will bitcoin work if it cant send anything over the network?
Bitcoin requires the existence of an non censored internet to work.
If your ISP will drop all bitcoin related packets - there will be no blockchain (or as i suggested - dropping all non signed packets)

Authority = ISP being controlled and regulated by corporations/government

Bitcoin can be disguised to look like other types of packets. It can even go darknet. Sure, ISPs can censor anything and I know at least I will stop paying them.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 24, 2012, 04:06:11 AM
 #46

are you reading what i am writing at all?
How will bitcoin work if it cant send anything over the network?
Bitcoin requires the existence of an non censored internet to work.
If your ISP will drop all bitcoin related packets - there will be no blockchain (or as i suggested - dropping all non signed packets)

Authority = ISP being controlled and regulated by corporations/government

Bitcoin can be disguised to look like other types of packets. It can even go darknet. Sure, ISPs can censor anything and I know at least I will stop paying them.
diguising wont help you. the security chip will sign the packet only if it was generated by a signed application
you wont be able to sign the packet your self and it will be dropped by the ISP
Non censored ISP might become illegal in the future - so whatever ISP you chose - will drop those packets
cbeast
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January 24, 2012, 04:32:44 AM
 #47

are you reading what i am writing at all?
How will bitcoin work if it cant send anything over the network?
Bitcoin requires the existence of an non censored internet to work.
If your ISP will drop all bitcoin related packets - there will be no blockchain (or as i suggested - dropping all non signed packets)

Authority = ISP being controlled and regulated by corporations/government

Bitcoin can be disguised to look like other types of packets. It can even go darknet. Sure, ISPs can censor anything and I know at least I will stop paying them.
diguising wont help you. the security chip will sign the packet only if it was generated by a signed application
you wont be able to sign the packet your self and it will be dropped by the ISP
Non censored ISP might become illegal in the future - so whatever ISP you chose - will drop those packets

I'm not sure if your serious. ISPs would have to completely shut down the internet to block Bitcoin. They will block ports and Bitcoin can use different ports and encryption schemes. Even China's firewall isn't stoping darknets.

[edit] I'm hardly one to argue the ability to circumvent censorship, but I do know that I refuse to support any enterprise that censors.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
Costia
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January 24, 2012, 04:47:29 AM
 #48

currently doing something like this just isn't worth it
but if bitcoin or something similar will take away ~1trillion$ income in taxes from the government , they will force the ISP to shut it down
and it will basically mean the death of the internet as we know it
I am not saying that this is a probable outcome, but it is possible (though unlikely)

edit:
and you werent reading again. i wasnt talking about ports or encrypting your trafic with your own private key. i was talking about dropping any packet that isn't signed by the ISP's private key - which you dont have
DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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January 24, 2012, 04:59:48 AM
 #49

costia why are you derailing the topic?  nowonder everyone is confused.  you are just spouting nonsense.  I assumed you were talking about using DRM to enforce some "useful work".  crazy I know assuming people in a thread about "useful work" are talking about "useful work".

You can take your statist fantansies about complete govt control over internet, all applications, all computing devices, and all ISP to another thread in off topic.  As someone else pointed out even China doesn't have control like that over computing devices.

Another noob to put on ignore.
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January 24, 2012, 05:10:49 AM
 #50

it is drm - just a global rather than local one .i really hope those are just fantasies. i just wanted to show that it is not impossible. not that it will inevitably happen.
k. back on topic.
the main problem here is proof of work.
to make it work the scientific problem needs to be verifiable in a polynomial time while not being solvable in polynomial time  (the P!=NP theory)
so a client can work for a certain time on the solution. and once found can be verified quickly.
another thing is that it has to be predictable so you can clearly define a unit of work
for example looking for extremely large prime numbers can be useful - and shouldnt be to hard to verify
http://w2.eff.org/awards/20000406_coopaward_pr.html https://www.eff.org/awards/coop
you can require that the first half of the number is identical to the last half of the previous one
and the difficulty can be adjusted by setting a lower limit on the second half of the number
DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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January 24, 2012, 05:21:28 AM
 #51

it is drm - just a global rather than local one .i really hope those are just fantasies. i just wanted to show that it is not impossible. not that it will inevitably happen.

You haven't shown anything.  Even if implemented it could still be hacked (and likely would within months if not weeks).  If not implemented globally there is still sat connectivity to "free internet" providers.  All DRM can be hacked.  Period.  It is inherently insecure.  Adam is eve and that is why all DRM eventually fails.  Even in a global single world government where all computing devices comply to a universe DRM scheme and you have universal support from all ISP on the planet at every level and nobody anywhere provides backdoors or insecure routes intentionally or accidentally it STILL can be broken.

So no you haven't shown anything except an increasingly more ridiculous strawman.
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January 24, 2012, 05:33:24 AM
 #52

If you want to continue this discussion please open a separate thread
Your logic is: DRM is fail now therefore it will remain fail forever.We can hack it now -> we will always be able to hack it. I disagree with this
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